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Old December 2, 2008, 05:46 PM   #1
threegun
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Why carry? Monday morning quarterback this scenario.

This video is a perfect explanation for why a good many of us carry. Innocent civilians being shot after compliance. It is why I started carrying many years ago.

How would you guys handle this scenario?


Click on video of donut shop shooting to the right of main video.....you have to wait 15 second for the advertisement to end.

http://www.cbs12.com/sections/video-...tid=3397422001
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Old December 2, 2008, 06:04 PM   #2
Bauer
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I have no idea how I would handle it being as there are no details on the play by play really. But...

1. They have the jump on me
2. They have more people and more fire power than me
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Old December 2, 2008, 06:43 PM   #3
threegun
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Quote:
1. They have the jump on me
Thats why I sit as far from the entrance as possible and facing the door.....drives my wife crazy at times. Exceptions are when I can see outside at whats coming in.

Quote:
2. They have more people and more fire power than me
You have better training (hopefully) and see them coming. You eliminate the shotgun man first the others probably run.

Remember this is Monday so you are going to be shot anyway. I can't think of a place on my face that I would welcome a bullet especially while said face is smashed against the floor ouch and deformation is coming....teeth, eye, cheek bone, wow that stinks. What scumbags.
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Old December 2, 2008, 06:49 PM   #4
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Dunno what I'd have done in that situation, but my best guess is that at least one current or former employee was involved in that assault. Note that they did not shoot any of the employees, but did shoot up the customers. It's also very possible the shootings were racially motivated - it appears that all of the robbers were black, and all of the customers were white. Not that that would ever appear in the press or at trial, but just sayin....
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Old December 2, 2008, 07:51 PM   #5
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Well if it comes to the point where I am face down and I feel 99% sure I am going to be shot I will take the bad odds and try and take control of the situation. However, assuming I don't see it coming in time, I will wait for an opportunity and constantly assess the situation and the actions I feel are safest for everyone in danger.
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Old December 2, 2008, 09:10 PM   #6
Sigma 40 Blaster
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threegun,

I'm like you, I refuse to sit right by an entrance or an entrance/exit. I want to be on the other side of the place with full view of people coming and going. I also figured that if you take out the guy with the shotgun the odds of surviving increase dramatically.

A little paranoid? Yeah. But I'm still alive right???

Any way you go though crossfire and ricochets look like they'd be a concern in such a tiny place, for you as a customer don't have anywhere to go for cover nor do any innocents. But you still have a better chance fighting when they enter versus laying down and just hoping they don't shoot.
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Old December 2, 2008, 10:46 PM   #7
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How horrifying it must have been for those folks.


I would feel almost obligated, as a ccw carrier, to fight. Because: A) You have to assume men brandishing weapons intend to use them. B) If you submit and lay face down, your at imminent risk of serious harm or death AND the bad guys could find your weapon and taken it


Your at a huge desparity but none of your choies in this scenario post significant advantage to outcome
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Old December 3, 2008, 12:07 AM   #8
jrothWA
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Hard to say...

from what is shown there's no indication of additional intent.
Customers appear to be unaware until on the floor.

Not sure what to do, here?

Maybe if CPL'ing to pull it and lay on it????
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Old December 3, 2008, 01:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
from what is shown there's no indication of additional intent.
No 'additional intent' !? I don't know about you, but here in Nevada my CCW instructor taught me that you have to assume that any one who maliciously brandishes a weapon INTENDS to use it. Would YOU draw your weapon if you didn't intend to use? Why should we think otherwise of criminals?
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Old December 3, 2008, 01:47 AM   #10
Rich Miranda
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Quote:
How would you guys handle this scenario?
I guess it depends on whether I see them coming or not. I am pretty aware of what goes on around me but I would probably be in there with my wife and kids. This means that I'm picking up dropped ice cream cones, cleaning up after my son, and just trying to keep the kids corralled. The perps very well could surprise me.

If they surprise me, I would probably wait until an opportune moment (when they are looking elsewhere) to draw and fire point blank. Yes, they will turn and fire too, but I am better trained than they are so the odds are in my favor.

If I see them first, I draw and shoot 2-3 rounds COM on the shotgunner, preferably as he opens the door. The other two will likely run away as they see him go down right at the door. If they don't, I have two more shots in my SP-101 for them. (Then I'm going to have to get real skinny.)

Of course, these are my thoughs as I sit at my computer in my underwear. In real life, who knows?

It's a bad situation no matter how you look at it. That's why criminals should go to prison for gun crimes and law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry for self defense.
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Old December 3, 2008, 03:54 AM   #11
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I would do one of two things depending on the amount of civilians and other factors. I also sit in the back, facing the exit at restaurants.

1) It's 10:30 at night, if the place isn't too busy or empty I would immediately draw and shoot. With four active-shooters there is a great chance I will get gunned down, but I would rather be gunned down fighting rather than getting shot after getting searched
and finding my holstered weapon.

2) If the place is crowded, I would try to hide my pistol under a menu or something if time permitted. Somewhere it isn't visible or present when I am searched and still in reach if they start executing people. This way no one else would get killed, after I am gunned down, in retaliation.

I honestly have a hard time imagining myself surviving with four active shooters and without getting innocent people killed. In a situation like this, it seems to me like an "or" choice. Either you fight back with the possibility of everyone getting killed if you are gunned down OR you do nothing and give them less reason to shoot everyone.

I think I'm going to stop here since it really is hard to make judgment in any kind of scenario all cut and dry like.

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Old December 3, 2008, 06:32 AM   #12
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Try to find any cover I can and / or on the move to cover start firing at the guy with the shotgun. No way I am waiting to see what they are going to do! Yeah, I will be shot at and innocent people may get hurt in the crossfire, I may even be killed; But, when his buddies see the guy take a couple of 45 rounds and go down they may lose the heart to fight real quick.
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Old December 3, 2008, 09:30 AM   #13
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The door seems like a pretty good choke point for the BG's. If you can drill the first one as he's coming through I'd say it's good chance his buddies aren't going to enter the store.

I always sit facing the main entrance / parking lot of where ever I happen to be at, it seems prudent.
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Old December 3, 2008, 09:47 AM   #14
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Old December 3, 2008, 11:30 AM   #15
threegun
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Quote:
The door seems like a pretty good choke point for the BG's.
Exactely.....If you get going early you can catch them in a fatal funnel of sorts.
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Old December 3, 2008, 11:59 AM   #16
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Just a few quotes to put it all in perspective in case the video goes away.

Quote:
authorities are calling this a “take over” style robbery where several men forced their way into a doughnut shop and assaulted customers, forcing them to the ground, stripping them of their money and then randomly starting shooting.
Quote:
There were at least 3 men, possibly 4 and at least two handguns and one shotgun.
Quote:
As they left the shop the man with the shotgun began firing at random, nobody seems to know why.
Quote:
Also as they left a passing car apparently flashed it's high beams at the men, one of them then pulled out a handgun and shot the driver.
And to be blunt, it was a small Duncan Donuts shop. In a restricted environment like that with no cover and damned little concealment It is very likely that my response would be to draw and open fire the minute I saw men bust in with guns in hand, ESPECIALLY once I saw the shotgun! Very possibly not the best response but at that point I'd be running almost purely on reflex.
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Old December 3, 2008, 04:53 PM   #17
threegun
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My thoughts on robbers is as follows.....rob the store and look disinterested in me and I probably don't act. Rob the store and show an interest in the customers and I can escape through a back exit and I probably don't act. Enter the store to rob it and run armed toward me and I probably don't hold back. The exception being if I am way behind in the reactionary curve.
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Old December 3, 2008, 05:48 PM   #18
CryingWolf
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Lets see four robbers coming in the front door and you sit in between them and the cash register. They only need one to see to the cash register, that leaves three to play with you. Sorry hit them hard, hit them fast and don't let up until the threat is over.

Quote:
Read "The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh
Exactly don't give in don't submit don't give up and never give up your firearm. If the BGs expect sheep, getting a wolf might have them running for the door.
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Old December 3, 2008, 06:07 PM   #19
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My little opinion: As soon as I see the gun(s) and verify they are BG, not LE, I position my family in the safest position possible, and then myself a few feet away in the second safest position and as soon as I have a clear shot the BG with the shotgun is taking 2-3 in the chest. It's important to hit him first because he has the most lethal and easiest to fire weapon, especially in a crowded place. Then, I continue firing at the bad guys until they are no longer a threat to anyone. As far as waiting for more intent... well I guess you could stare at his trigger finger and wait for it to move... but I don't think that would turn out too well. This whole thing sounds funny to me. Three, well armed men, with what seems like a pretty good plan, rob a donut shop? That's a lot of people and a lot of hardware to get away with maybe a few hundred dollars at best. And who eats donuts at night? Also... where were the cops?? It was a donut shop wasn't it? The whole story sounds funny to me.
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Old December 3, 2008, 06:45 PM   #20
Tatsumi67
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Oh Lord... There is now no more doubt in my mind. Its now definite: I buy a Glock 21 on my birthday, get it 21 days later, sign up for CCW class the day after that.

there is no way I'm letting this happen in my town.
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Old December 3, 2008, 06:50 PM   #21
Glenn E. Meyer
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I have a hint - don't frequent places like that in the evening. Especially later when the cash draws are full.

I've had that discussion with family - no late night stops at the ice cream store or the like. We can go to the Big Supermarket and buy ice cream to take home.

Also, I'm a little reluctant to support those who propose a lot of moving around to position X, Y or Z.

You lose surprise and I found in FOF, the defender who tries to sneak into position is very obvious.

If you are going to shoot it out (a debatable always strategy - flame war - etc.) - don't futter - do it. You will have the surprise then.
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Old December 3, 2008, 08:03 PM   #22
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I've been in similar situations in FoF exercises; this is a very bad scenario. I agree with Glenn; if you are going to act, act. Don't be sneaky, be aggressive.
I think you, sitting in the brightly lit donut shop, are going to have a hard time recognizing the threat outside in the dark in all black clothes before it enters the store. Your first inkling that there is a problem will be when the guy with the shotgun comes through the door.
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Old December 3, 2008, 11:58 PM   #23
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They have the element of surprise. You will be behind the curve no matter what. If they are even halfway good, you won't have a chance to do anything. You're best chance is to affect the situation before it happens...as in "don't be there in the first place if you can help it." If you have the bad luck to be in it, and you decide to take action, then go big, fast, and nasty.
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Old December 4, 2008, 12:10 AM   #24
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Like others have said you are behind the curve and I agree. The perps surprised the victims. However they are not expecting resistance for the most part and when an armed "victim" starts shooting THEY are the ones who are going to be surprised. Will you get shot probably, will it kill you maybe, One thing is for certain if you are face down on the floor complying you will most likely be shot and it will be a fatal head shot. Oh too bad the guy that flashed them with his highbeams didn't run them down.
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Old December 4, 2008, 01:20 AM   #25
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I guess (yeah, I know, in hindsight observation) I would start shooting as soon as I saw them come through the door wielding guns in that kind of attire.
I mean, its not like "hey guys, we're just out for a stroll... those flies outside are gettin' big, so we came prepared..."
It should be obvious they have the intent, ability and opportunity to bodily harm the people inside.
That seems a bit going off half cocked, but what else to do? you could say "Drop the gun!!" while holdiong your own on them, but with three of them I doubt they would feel threatened to comply, they'd probably just shoot you, at which point you've destroyed what little element of surprise you had...
Yep. I'd have to start shooting.

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