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Old December 3, 2008, 10:00 PM   #51
Keltyke
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Is someone truly threatening the life of someone, or is he simply menacing?
Can you really afford to take those chances?
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Old December 4, 2008, 05:54 AM   #52
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Lots and lots of internet warriors in this thread. I would posit that it is impossible to know whether you could actually take another person's life until you've actually been in the situation.
Couldn't agree with one quote more on this thread.
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Old December 4, 2008, 11:03 AM   #53
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Is someone truly threatening the life of someone, or is he simply menacing?

no matter what, you felt your life was threatened! there is no other correct answer after a ccw shooting!
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Old December 4, 2008, 01:06 PM   #54
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If you have to ask this question, you probably should not be carrying. What is the reason for carrying a gun? So you look tough (if someone happens to see it)?

How many folks who carry are actually ready to shoot their weapon in a situation that warrants it? If you have not completed a actual hands on training class where live fire drills are a part of the training, you should. It is the best real world training that one can get to prepare them for the REAL world and to give one the confidence that they will know when to use their weapon as opposed to keeping it holstered during an emotional trying time.

No I am not scared to pull the trigger.
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Old December 4, 2008, 01:46 PM   #55
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Of course I'm scared

No matter how right you are the consequneces that come with pulling the trigger include the possibility of killing a fellow human being. Even if the human being is a real deal oxygen thief it's still a member of your species and killing another human has alot of issues that come with it.

Pulling the trigger is scary, that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it, but to take it lightly or dismiss the fear that is and should be associated with it is denial.

Recognizing, dealing with and mastering fear is a big part of mindset. Dismissing it is as foolish as training on Duck Hunt and assuming your marksmanship is squared away.
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Old December 4, 2008, 01:57 PM   #56
moga
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Scared? Nope. Want to? Nope. If the situation arises where it has to be done, then there will undoubtedly be consequences with which to deal. That is simply part of the package.
Since this about sums up what I was preparing to write, I'll just quote it instead.

My SOP is to evade first and fight only when there's no other choice. Heavens protect me from the moment of truth because I like my life and would rather it not be turned upside down because someone wants to take what belongs not to them but if it comes, I will have no compunction about making sure my family doesn't have to bury their father, son, husband, etc. without my putting up an extremely violent fight.
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Old December 4, 2008, 02:09 PM   #57
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Yup. I dont think anyone out there wouldnt be scared, in one way or another. You would have to be an empty person inside not to be scared. I carry. If I ever need to use it, it will be an absolute last resort. I would even try running/escaping first. Remember, be not too quick to take life, if you are unable to grant it back.
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Old December 4, 2008, 02:10 PM   #58
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Lots and lots of internet warriors in this thread. I would posit that it is impossible to know whether you could actually take another person's life until you've actually been in the situation.
I object to the demeaning sanctimonious term "Internet Warrior". Have YOU been in this situation yourself? Not as a pro like in the Army or as a LEO, I mean as a civilian.

If a person hasn't already decided that in their mind, and practiced to do so they have no business carrying a gun. That kind of thinking will get them killed, real quick.

Let me assure you, this "Internet Warrior" will drop the hammer in a heartbeat, without hesitation. Trust me on this. I won't enjoy doing it, but that don't slow me down any.
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Old December 4, 2008, 02:32 PM   #59
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Cold Dead Hands

I agree with you. I will defend myself or my family - I believe there is an absolute right to survive. I'm confident in my training and in my ability to respond accurately and effectively with a firearm if that happens.

I don't carry all the time / and I don't feel guilty for making a decision to carry or not carry. I carry when I want to / its my CCW permit, its my decison. I'm not trying to be an extension of the police force / and for the most part, I rarely put myself in environments that are inherently dangerous.

Am I prepared to bet all of my personal assets, if I make that decision - that troubles me, because other people in the family will get hurt financially, if or when I make that decision - but yes, I will act to defend myself or my family.

But the possibility of losing millions of dollars - retirement funds, property, etc - from a lawsuit is a sobering thought / and something we all have to deal with if we choose to defend ourselves. Its not just us, that will get hurt by the aftermath .....
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Old December 4, 2008, 02:41 PM   #60
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I object to the demeaning sanctimonious term "Internet Warrior". Have YOU been in this situation yourself? Not as a pro like in the Army or as a LEO, I mean as a civilian.
Sorry to offend, but until you have been in a situation requiring you to draw a firearm, point it at another human being, and pull the trigger, you simply have no idea whatsoever what you will do. You can train all you want, but you simply do not know what you will do in that situation. There is no way to realistically simulate fear for one's life. Whether I have faced such a situation is no one's business but my own.

Quote:
If a person hasn't already decided that in their mind, and practiced to do so they have no business carrying a gun. That kind of thinking will get them killed, real quick.
That's all well and good, but see my point above. Shooting at another human being cannot be simulated and you simply do not know if you are capable of doing so until you find yourself in a situation where the *potential* need to do so arises. Real life defense scenarios are rarely as cut and dried as we might like.

Quote:
Let me assure you, this "Internet Warrior" will drop the hammer in a heartbeat, without hesitation. Trust me on this. I won't enjoy doing it, but that don't slow me down any.
Well, I don't believe I was referring to you in particular, but it's great to have confidence. However, you simply do not know what you will do in a situation of dire emergency until you are in that situation.
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Old December 4, 2008, 03:18 PM   #61
moga
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But until you have been in a situation requiring you to draw a firearm, point it at another human being, and pull the trigger, you simply have no idea whatsoever what you will do.
I disagree with this wholly.

Human beings are hard coded at the instinctual level to fight for their lives when in peril. Assuming that a person hasn't been environmentally habituated into the stop, drop, and beg mentality, the will to survive is ever present, quietly existing under the consciousness to get us through the toughest of times. Dynamic, force on force training simply harnesses the instinct so that a person has a skill set on which to draw in the moment of need that doesn't require conscious thought. It does not supplant the fundamental will to live, however.

Without going into unnecessary detail, I know exactly what I'm willing to do at the critical moment and what I'm capable of to bring that will to fruition. Let it suffice to say that a gun is but one tool among the many implements of survival mister. The software that's required to use those tools effectively is between one's ears and as such, how far one will go to live can be evaluated independent of the actual use of a firearm in a self defense scenario. In other words, drawing a firearm, pointing it at another human being, and pulling the trigger is not the alpha and omega to this discussion. I can't help but to wonder if it's because of your personal uncertainty of what you would do given the scenario you assembled in quotation that you are assuming the same must be true of everyone else.

The point on which I agree with you is that the legal, financial, and social aftermath of a self defense shooting remains unknown until it happens. As this may be different with each case and varies widely according to factors such as location, local politics, and local culture among others, it must be experienced first hand to "know" it in the manner of your point of view. But in any case, you can bet that the shooter and survivor won't emerge from the situation completely unscathed in all categories.
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Old December 4, 2008, 03:38 PM   #62
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The research on combat shows that people do freeze up - even the trained and even those who have fought before. There is strong evidence that neurophysiological systems exist that produce freezing behavior as that is sometimes adaptative - for example to hide in the woods.

I've never been in combat. Being a FOG civilian, I've done lots of FOF as I regard training as mandated if I'm going to carry. I've seen folks freeze up solid. I saw a self-proclaimed martial artist, for instance, get knocked on his ass as he could not deal with an advancing aggressor. I've seen two FOF participants come face to face and one shoot and the other not. The latter said that they just couldn't pull the trigger. These were folks who were in a high end course, not a CWP course.

No one can say with any guarantee what their response would be. The referral to being an internet warrior usually comes from those who state forcefully that they would be pros in action, can make the difficult shot, win the H2H, not freeze, not have emotional consequences after taking a life or the like

The considered practitioneer is aware that they can freeze, miss the shot, screw up and have emotional consequences. They prepare themselves to minimize this but are aware that there are no guarantees as to their response.

There is a very, very large literature on responses to emotional and dangerous situations which folks should research a bit before being so sure of things.
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Old December 4, 2008, 03:46 PM   #63
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I have pulled the trigger, without hesitation. Hopefully you will find like me there was no time to have fear of pulling the trigger before you pull it. Situation comes up and you react the way you train, it's after you pull the trigger that you say to yourself "Oh no you didn't, you didn't just dump that guy". But even that will pass if you had good cause. Check my webpage under Negrete Shooting, or explore the whole thing.
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Old December 4, 2008, 04:26 PM   #64
Glenn E. Meyer
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If you study PTSD responses of police, you can find folks who did pull the trigger and the next time around froze or cognitively couldn't do it.

They probably thought that this wouldn't happen to them.
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Old December 4, 2008, 05:20 PM   #65
Maui19
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Quote:
Quote:
Is someone truly threatening the life of someone, or is he simply menacing?
no matter what, you felt your life was threatened! there is no other correct answer after a ccw shooting!
I am talking about intervening on someone else's behalf. I will know when I feel my life is threatened.
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Old December 4, 2008, 06:37 PM   #66
moga
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I don't believe that a study of what the police has or hasn't done when in a shoot scenario is a good indicator of how the private citizen will react when faced with a life or death situation. The decision making process of the cop to fire or not is vastly different than the armed citizen. The police are charged with enforcing the law. Many responses may necessitate their drawing the service weapon that may not directly relate to a lethal threat. The licensed civilian only has two states in their threat matrix: lethal/grave injury jeopardy or not. In addition, many LE join the force for reasons other than relating to their firearm. On the other hand, the sole reason for the CCW citizen to arm them self is to fight back when and if faced with an otherwise untenable, violent situation. Cops may or may not be ready to levy extreme prejudice in the duty of their jobs. For CCWs, it's part and parcel of the decision to carry.

I guess at the end of the day it boils down to how well we each know ourselves.
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Old December 4, 2008, 07:35 PM   #67
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Scared to pull the trigger? Yes. Too scared to pull it? Certainly not.
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Old December 5, 2008, 09:42 AM   #68
Kline605
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Human beings are hard coded at the instinctual level to fight for their lives when in peril.
I will make this easy and short, Humans have the instinct to FIGHT, FLIGHT, or FREEZE. Most people in modern society will not fight. One day of watching the news, should indicate that. One look at "Active Shooter" incidents should show you that most untrained people will run or freeze.
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Old December 5, 2008, 09:52 AM   #69
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Cops may or may not be ready to levy extreme prejudice in the duty of their jobs. For CCWs, it's part and parcel of the decision to carry.
WHAT? Before I respond to this statment, would you please explain your reasoning.
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Old December 5, 2008, 05:33 PM   #70
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How about having been in a situation where deadly force is the appropriate response to the threat but you didn't have that capability? Does that count?

When I lived in Chicago, I was raped. I've heard people say the only difference between a rape and a murder is the victim's still breathing. I would add that the rape victim dies over and over again until she works through the experience and becomes a rape survivor.

Am I "afraid" to pull the trigger if necessary? No. I'm afraid of what can happen if I don't.
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Old December 5, 2008, 10:30 PM   #71
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Fear can be used to your advantage. It can keep you focused and make you do what you need to do in a stressful situation such as a gunfight. The latter though is lots of people let their fears cripple them. Fear is a natural emotional response to a stressful situation. I say use it to your advantage
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Old December 5, 2008, 10:33 PM   #72
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It is the best real world training that one can get to prepare them for the REAL world and to give one the confidence that they will know when to use their weapon as opposed to keeping it holstered during an emotional trying time.
Perhaps, but other than LE, most "real world" SD shootings involve untrained people who never heard of using cover, didn't have time to use it anyway, and a tactical reload out of the question. Usually, Bubba isn't exactly a well trained Commando, either.

Guns like .25 autos, 32's and .38 Specials are most common. Some, attacked in their homes, don't even remember they have a gun until after the assault is underway and they've been injured. Some perform more admirably.

I find it interesting that so many of them survived to find themselves the subject of a chapter in a book like "Thank God I Had a Gun" by Chris Bird, or in one of Bob Water's books.

Sometimes the common, untrained, not really a gun type, does quite well. Sometimes not. But they're the majority in the "real world".
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Old December 6, 2008, 07:27 PM   #73
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The problems with pulling the trigger in any situation are the consequences, both legally and morally.
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Old December 7, 2008, 07:16 PM   #74
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In my state you are legally permitted by statute to defend yourself and others by the use of deadly force. In my morality you are required to defend yourself.
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Old December 8, 2008, 05:37 AM   #75
hogdogs
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I have not frozen, nor did I fear pulling the trigger. I did have a little fear that one of their bullets may hit me but that is it. I went on to finish my meal and soda...
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