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Old November 27, 2008, 08:03 PM   #1
JohnH1963
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Blaming the Caliber vs. Blaming your training

Whenever there is a shooting incident, does any of the departments ever form a committee to evaluate the training of the officers?

For example, in the shooting of the NY State trooper below, why didnt they evaluate the training of the troopers at the academy or the on-going training of the existing troopers on duty? I would have suspected they might, say, increase the training of the troopers at the academy by a week or so and then increase the training and shooting standards for the existing officers. However, only the caliber was blamed...

In all the articles I have read about this incident, the caliber that the criminals were using was carefully ommitted. Im wondering if the criminals were using a 9mm or something less powerful?


http://www.nystpba.org/pages/public/...p?news_id=2384
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Old November 27, 2008, 08:08 PM   #2
golfnutrlv
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If caliber was the only issue involved, we would all use .50 Desert Eagles, and always win.

Since aim is extremely important, I tend to agree that the article does not seem to touch on the BG's weapon, or whether the shots from the officer were on target.

Simply, be accurate, or go home.
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Old December 7, 2008, 03:12 AM   #3
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The article does not say a whole lot it didn't even say if the trooper fired his gun. The trooper was on a traffic stop with a traffic violator who unknown to him was a bank robber. possibly was shot before he drew his weapon, unfortunatly that happens too many times. you are working traffic let your guard down, hell this is just Joe Blow late to work and speeding, walk up to the car & bang. Its taught to all officers but at times they just slip.
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Old December 7, 2008, 05:11 AM   #4
JohnH1963
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When reading an article such as this one, my spider-sense starts tingling when there is a lack of detail or some time of vagary. There is a lot of detail that was seemingly left out and probably purposely so. The report the police put out about this incident fools the reader into believing there was only one thing to blame and that was the caliber.

The event is tragic, no doubt, and everyone wants to be as appropriate as possible by not placing any fault on the department or officer. However, why leave out the small details about the incident? Why not be as plain and truthful as possible? How is anyone going to take away anything from it if the truth is not vented?
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:38 AM   #5
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You know, LAPD bought a bunch of Kimber .45 acp 1911s after the North Hollywood incident, citing the incident, because they needed more power...only .45 acp would not have been any improvement over the 9mm in regard to body armor.

There are strange reasons for justification of changing weaponry, not all of which actually make good sense even if the decision itself is sound.
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:45 AM   #6
12GaugeShuggoth
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Simply, be accurate, or go home.
Yep, what they said. Without accuracy and precision, nothing else matters.
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:47 AM   #7
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There are strange reasons for justification of changing weaponry, not all of which actually make good sense even if the decision itself is sound.
True dat. It's actually UNREASONABLE to expect this decision to be any less fraught with the byzantine politics and irrationality of big-city police than any other decision.

And consider, also, that there are countless scenarios to be considered when choosing a standard police issue sidearm and load. No single package will be best in resolving all of them, and even if one were, it is still subject to the realities of economics, training, supply/logistics and practicality.
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:49 AM   #8
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Yep, what they said. Without accuracy and precision, nothing else matters.
Nonsense. This is a service sidearm, not a precision rifle. Acceptable service accuracy (3-4" at 25 yards) is more than enough for a police sidearm. They're not shooting at 1000 yard paper targets at Camp Perry. What matters most is that it goes bang every time you pull the trigger (and in all reasonably forseeable conditions), sends an effective pill the bad guys' way, and that the officers trust it and are well-trained in its operation.
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Old December 7, 2008, 02:56 PM   #9
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My opinion is that survival in a self-defense situation is not about caliber or accuracy, but about training and knowing what to do.

Speed and distance are the two keys that will let you live another day. The further you are the less likely you will be killed. The faster you are the less likely the shooter will lock on your position.

If you delay even a second...if you are not a half mile per hour faster that can mean the difference between life and death.

Training is how to avoid such situations and knowing what to do when under fire.
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Old December 7, 2008, 06:46 PM   #10
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The new weapon is designed to "cause immediate incapacitation and maximize officer safety," Swoboda said.
I'm surprised these guys haven't had a guest spot on "Future Weapons" yet, making such statements. All we can say for sure is that a bigger hole means the target will exsanguinate faster, and that the shooter has a very slightly larger margin of error - about an extra 1/10" - to clip something vital. Exsanguination is not a one-shot stop, and shouldn't be relied upon where your target can shoot back. The extra bullet diameter hitting something incapacitating also shouldn't be counted on, because if you're depending on that kind of fortuitous luck to make your rounds effective you need to get your butt to the range. Perhaps we'll find out that hydrostatic shock, energy transfer, round momentum, or one of the other killing power theories is correct at some point in the future, but right now as I understand none of them receive much scholarly acceptance.

So shot placement - yes, accuracy and precision - is the dispositive concern. A well-placed shot from a small round might not always end the threat, but if you're not hitting anything important the biggest round never will. That's not to say you need Camp Perry accuracy. Close friend of mine who worked as a DS agent is a pretty questionable shot by my standards. But for the purposes of his work, keeping them all on the silhouette at 10 yards is all you need. Nobody's saying officers need to be held to some super-high standard of accuracy, but that they need to hit what they're shooting at, big round or small round. The better the hit, the safer they'll be.

I always wonder how guys like Swoboda come out of the woodwork when it's time for a public announcement. The law enforcement agents I've known have all been well versed in the tools of their trade (and very pro-gun with the exception of two who don't like black rifles). But whenever it's time to go on TV or talk to the papers, you get Sarge Fudd running to the mic to blather some preposterous misinformation to the sheep.

Last edited by bclark1; December 7, 2008 at 06:56 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old December 8, 2008, 08:07 AM   #11
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Hmmm, 11 rounds of .45 GAP missing their target, or 18 rounds of 9mm missing their target...

I guess they've at least lowered their liability by almost 50% by limiting the number of rounds that are going god knows where when the troopers can't hit what they're aiming at...

Too bad they didn't spend that money on upgraded vests, patrol rifles, better radios, MORE TRAINING, or something else their troopers might ACTUALLY need.
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Old December 8, 2008, 04:34 PM   #12
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I agree with john1963 to a point. Training and knowing what to do plus speed of action are only a temporary fix. After that accuracy is what will stop the threat. No caliber is a cure all and all persons cannot utilize all caliber's. The progressive Departments have an issue weapon but allow officer's to chose their own weapon from an approved list of manufacturers and caliber's if they prefer. The Sheriff's Office here allows 38, 357,9mm,40and 45 also 380 for UC's. They issue 12GA shotguns to each car and if the Deputy can qualify with it they may carry their own rifle if it is on the approved list.
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