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Old November 26, 2008, 01:12 PM   #1
ISC
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Has anyone here EVER had their C&R FFL audited by ATF?

I know that it is theoretically possible, but has it ever happenned to anyone? I'm curious ho it went. apparently some ATF agents are actually human beings and it is only a small minority that try to set people up and coerce them into being snitches.

I have a friend that sold a handgun he bought with his C&R to an employee and he ended up tading it for drugs to somene that shot someone in a drug deal gone bad. It came back to my buddy eventually and he just showed them his book and it all went away.

Do any of y'all have an ATF experience re your C&R you care to share?
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Old November 28, 2008, 12:39 PM   #2
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I know of only one case, and that was similar in that a gun sold by the C&R FFL holder turned up in the wrong place and wrong hands. He got a pretty stiff warning that selling to non-collectors could result in revocation of the license, but that was all. That was in VA. In MD and some other states, had he not followed the law on individual sales, he could have faced a stiff fine or jail time.

AFAIK, BATFE does not conduct any routine or periodic audits of C&R licensees.

Jim
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Old November 28, 2008, 02:41 PM   #3
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He got a pretty stiff warning that selling to non-collectors could result in revocation of the license, but that was all. That was in VA.
I don't understand how he could get such a warning in VA, as long as he sold it to another legal VA resident and logged all info in his bound book (unless BATFE agent is FOS, totally possible). He could not lose his C&R for selling to non-collectors, unless his book indicated that he is abusing his license for profit versus improving his collection. I've sold C&R rifles and a C&R handgun that I didn't need for my collection any more (got better ones). The individuals I sold them to are VA residents and can lawfully own them here. What they do with them is their business.
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Old November 28, 2008, 07:36 PM   #4
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I don't understand how he could get such a warning in VA
+1?
Selling within the same state should not require the buyer to have a C&R.
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Old November 28, 2008, 11:31 PM   #5
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Maybe he sold it to a felon. As a C&R you can't do background checks. If you have reason to believe that the buyer is a felon you can't make the sale, but I can see a agent reading a C&R for selling a gun to a guy that had warrants or previous convictions.
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Old November 29, 2008, 04:59 AM   #6
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I don't understand how he could get such a warning in VA, as long as he sold it to another legal VA resident and logged all info in his bound book (unless BATFE agent is FOS, totally possible). He could not lose his C&R for selling to non-collectors, unless his book indicated that he is abusing his license for profit versus improving his collection. I've sold C&R rifles and a C&R handgun that I didn't need for my collection any more (got better ones). The individuals I sold them to are VA residents and can lawfully own them here. What they do with them is their business.
I can't understand that one either. As long as the sale is legal then he is in the right. They would not have done what was said unless there was alot more to the transaction or story and even then he would be lucky to get a warning.
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Old November 29, 2008, 10:58 AM   #7
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If you have reason to believe that the buyer is a felon you can't make the sale, but I can see a agent reading a C&R for selling a gun to a guy that had warrants or previous convictions.
Like you said, FFL03s have no way to do a background check, so how would one have any reason to think the buyer is a felon unless he/she told you so? The best that can be done is to look at ID to verify age and address, and take his/her word that they can legally buy and own the gun. Personally, I wouldn't (and don't) sell guns (either C&R or non) to someone I don't personally know and trust, or to someone that can't be vouched for in some way by someone I do know and trust, but if a BATFE agent called on me and said a gun that I used to have in my collection was then used in a felony, I would show him my book and let him continue his investigation. I don't think I'd stand for him chastising or threatening me, in any way, when I did everything in my capability to ensure that the deal was legal.
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Old November 29, 2008, 12:52 PM   #8
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The guy was a little vague and ranted about the BATFE, but they seemed to have warned him against making too many sales to individuals. From what he said, I gathered that he bought a lot of C&R handguns and then sold them to about anyone. He claimed that doing so was OK and legal (as some here have said) but there is a point where occasional sales become dealing. I am sure BATFE considered him not only as being a dealer but as selling guns without asking too many questions.

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Old November 29, 2008, 02:44 PM   #9
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....but they seemed to have warned him against making too many sales to individuals.
Making too many sales to anyone is risky for a 03FFL.

Quote:
...but there is a point where occasional sales become dealing.
Unfortunately, there is no written definition of that
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Old November 29, 2008, 06:56 PM   #10
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Buying and selling C&R guns for the betterment or improvement of ones collection is considered okay and proper with the BATF. With that said a C&R lic is not issued for someone to use just for buying & selling C&R guns but rather for a collector to use in buying and selling to improve ones collection.
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Old November 29, 2008, 07:26 PM   #11
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Unfortunately, there are always people who make it hard for everyone else. I have a suspicion that the guy in question got his 03 FFL just so he could supply his drug buddies with guns, but of course I can't prove that. In a lot of places, the CLEO signature would be no problem and any way, the CLEO doesn't say the applicant is a nice guy, only that there is no law against him having the license.

For a long time, the anti gun gang has been trying to eliminate the C&R license and I have no doubt they will try again now that a gun-hating president will be in the White House. (Make no mistake, Obama hates guns and gun owners with a passion, no matter how many lies he tells.)

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Old November 29, 2008, 07:48 PM   #12
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When mine was active I would buy 5 at a time and handpick out the best 3 for me and my sons. I'd sell the other 2 to friends for cost plus enough extra to cover the shipping for all 5 . I probably sold about 10 or 12 guns over the 3 years I had it. After my divorce I let it go and sold off a big part of my collection so that now I only have one of each of the many varieties of mausers, mosins, and SKSs I used to have. The ones I kept are the best of the best though so it definitely improved my collection.

In the big sell off I lost some of the names of the buyers and my logbook got all jacked up so I didn't renew my C&R. If you let your C&R go you can destroy your books and start all over with a new license number. That's what I'm in the process of doing now.
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Old December 2, 2008, 01:13 PM   #13
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In a lot of places, the CLEO signature would be no problem and any way, the CLEO doesn't say the applicant is a nice guy, only that there is no law against him having the license.
There is NO CLEO signature. The CLEO does not do anything except receive the application copy you send him. He has absolutely NO active role unless he knows some reason why you should not have the license and calls ATF. You're getting the C&R application confused with the NFA registration procedures.
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Old December 4, 2008, 07:42 PM   #14
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If you let your C&R go you can destroy your books and start all over with a new license number. That's what I'm in the process of doing now.
Better check that one carefully ... I'm 99.99% certain that when you let your license expire, you are on the hook to maintain those records for 20 years. I read it carefully a few years back and while my memory isn't perfect, I think I have this one straight.

Saands

edit: I found the reference: it is 27 CFR section 478.129 and it says:
Quote:
(e) Records of dealers and collectors under the Act. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors under the Act of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded.

Last edited by saands; December 4, 2008 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Added citation ...
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Old December 4, 2008, 08:13 PM   #15
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Had a C&R for 20+ years and never been audited. Have had NFA items for 20+ years and have never been asked to see my paperwork be ATF or any other LEO.
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Old December 4, 2008, 08:15 PM   #16
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I'm 99.99% certain that when you let your license expire, you are on the hook to maintain those records for 20 years.
That is incorrect. If you maintain your license active for over 20 years, you can dispose of the records 20+ years old. If you let you license expire, you can do whatever you want with your records, keep them or trash them.
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Old December 4, 2008, 09:48 PM   #17
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That is incorrect. If you maintain your license active for over 20 years, you can dispose of the records 20+ years old. If you let you license expire, you can do whatever you want with your records, keep them or trash them.
+1
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Old December 5, 2008, 07:08 AM   #18
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That is incorrect. If you maintain your license active for over 20 years, you can dispose of the records 20+ years old. If you let you license expire, you can do whatever you want with your records, keep them or trash them.
X2
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Old December 5, 2008, 08:11 AM   #19
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I know one person that had some guns stolen and he caught all kinds of grief from the BATF about having to prove that the guns were stolen and not sold. The audited him wiht a fine tooth comb and he finally gave up his license. Other than that haven't heard of any.
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Old December 5, 2008, 09:53 AM   #20
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In the last two weeks four members of www.northeastshooters.com have been called in for an audit
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Old December 5, 2008, 09:58 AM   #21
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In the last two weeks four members of www.northeastshooters.com have been called in for an audit
Can you post a link to the relevant discussion on NES? I can't find it.
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Old December 5, 2008, 11:15 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by VaFisher
Quote:
That is incorrect. If you maintain your license active for over 20 years, you can dispose of the records 20+ years old. If you let you license expire, you can do whatever you want with your records, keep them or trash them.
X2
Yes, you may destroy your records when you are no longer licensed. BATF has stated that only licensees need to maintain their "bound books". Other licensees have to forward their business records to BATF when they are no longer licensed. Type 03 FFLs are not required to do so since they do not have "business records".

I have a letter from BATF that states that once collectors are no longer licensed, they are not required to maintain any of their records and can destroy them if they wish.
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Old December 5, 2008, 11:23 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by PT111
I know one person that had some guns stolen and he caught all kinds of grief from the BATF about having to prove that the guns were stolen and not sold. The audited him wiht a fine tooth comb and he finally gave up his license. Other than that haven't heard of any.
Did he telephone BATF within 48 hours of discovering the theft and then submit a written report to BATF on BATF Form 3310.11? Did he report the theft to local law enforcement authorities and obtain a case number? Did he make the appropriate entries to his "bound book"? He was required by 27CFR 478.39a to take these actions. If he complied, he should have had no problems with BATF. If he didn't or was late in reporting, that may have been the source of his troubles.
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Old December 5, 2008, 03:11 PM   #24
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http://northeastshooters.com/vbullet...499#post676499
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Old December 5, 2008, 03:44 PM   #25
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Thanks.
Waiting for the phone call now......
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