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Old December 4, 2008, 08:36 AM   #76
ActivShootr
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Who is this "he" you refer you to?
It is hard to argue with and on different subjects at the same time, is'nt it?
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Old December 4, 2008, 09:43 PM   #77
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Emphasis, mine:
Quote:
He only called to us when he saw that I noticed him. Crap, so much for sneakin up on 'em.

When I replied in the negative he paused, then began walking towards us quicker than he had been before. Oh yeah, AH? Time to teach you some manners!

He only stopped approaching when I made what could be considered a threatening gesture. Oh crap, this SOB's got a gun!

He exited the scene in a vehicle that had been left running with it's lights off, concealed from view for ANYONE coming from the store. Get away car much? Damn, Jim, that SOB liked'a shot me! Let's get a beer.
Anything else is possible, of course, but not likely IMO, considering the happenings around here, and evidently where the OP was, according to some of the replies. I say good job.
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Old December 6, 2008, 07:34 PM   #78
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You had your mind clear during that scenario! There are many people who wouldn't think like you did.
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Old December 6, 2008, 07:37 PM   #79
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another thought...What if this had been a walmart that had signs posted against CCW. I have heard stories of such walmarts but I have not seen this myself.
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Old December 8, 2008, 10:49 PM   #80
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In this state you're "brandishing." Also, in this state when you put your hand on your gun, you're exposing yourself to "use of lethal force in defense" from the other person. Basically you're "threatening with a firearm" and the other person is lawfully justified in use of lethal force in defense.

In court his justification is: "He drew a gun on me."

Stopping in the parking lot and drawing your coat back is pretty aggressive. Grabbing a gun in the process is a gross misdemeanor. And no, I'm not living in CA.

The guy probably wanted a jump start for his dead battery. He may have been lost and looking to ask for directions. What is it about these forums where everyone walks around hyper-vigilant and expecting they'll be assaulted at every turn?

Get between him and your wife. Keep walking. Tell him you're busy and don't have time to visit. Keep moving. If he follows you, THEN you have a situation where you're being threatened.

But they don't get to know you're armed until the bullets are coming out of the muzzle. Brandishing your gun is an invitation to be shot in self-defense.
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Old December 8, 2008, 11:05 PM   #81
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Max DID YOU READ THE OP?


He never showed the weapon, he never gave any impression that he was doing anything except reacting to a unreasonable situation.

The car behind him was idling, so he was not looking for a jump, he never drew the weapon, he only said I don't want to talk to you in body language. If the person of interest had been on the up and up, he would have said something like "whoa sorry dude, I was wondering if you could point me toward Oak street" or "Where is appleby's from here....."


OP you did fine, and tell your wife next time she should have her cell out ...
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Old December 8, 2008, 11:20 PM   #82
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At this point I moved my coat out of the way, held it back with my strong side arm, and put my hand on my still holstered gun. I carry iwb in an MTAC and still had my cover shirt over top of it, so at this point I'm just indexing with my hand to make sure I know where it's at. Left hand was on the surefire 6P in my coat pocket.
He pulled his coat back and had his hands on TWO guns. That's "brandishing" in this state, a gross misdemeanor, Class A to put a fine point on it.

I DO read. I read really closely, like an attorney.
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Old December 8, 2008, 11:25 PM   #83
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Good post MaxHS

I haven't visited the post in a while but I see that the tone of the responses to anyone who disagrees with the characterization of the (possible) threat is just as polarizing as the last time I checked.
Look. We can agree to disagree without the demonizing.
So I will, with respect, continue to disagree.
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Old December 8, 2008, 11:32 PM   #84
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Max... Just so you know... He had one hand on the gun and one hand on a SUREFIRE FLASHLIGHT! I'm just sayin... If you don't know what a Surefire is your probably not too credible in this regard.

I think all you nay sayers are seriously disregarding this man's instinct. Sometimes a person just looks or feels WRONG. Granted you can't draw your weapon on instinct alone, but one has to allow his instinct to put him on guard. Well Done!
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Old December 8, 2008, 11:34 PM   #85
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I don't shoot flashlights.

Please excuse my ignorance for not knowing the nifty names of every piece of tactical impedimentia currently on the market.

"Brandishing" is unlawful. Pulling your coat back and reaching for your gun -- even if it's covered with your shirt -- constitutes "brandishing" in the statutorial sense of the definition.

"Brandishing" is also a constructive defense for the lawful use of lethal force. "He went for his gun and so I shot him." That's a constructive defense.

You want "credibility" . . . get into the law library and Shepardize case law on "brandishing," "constructive defense," "use of lethal force."

There's case law aplenty on the topic.

Last edited by MaxHeadSpace; December 8, 2008 at 11:45 PM.
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Old December 8, 2008, 11:59 PM   #86
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I prefer Fenix. Cheaper but just as bright, lighter and longer running time

One can only go by what one reads.
I do know that if I approached someone(with all good intentions) and that person is ready to draw a weapon, all conversation ceases and I get the hell out. Especially if that person is standing with his pregnant wife and is obviously protective. Why take the chance of the incident possibly going south when you can just walk away?
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Old December 9, 2008, 12:09 AM   #87
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brandishing?

Don't you have to make other people aware of your weapon, in order to "brandish" it? From what he wrote, the weapon was not visible to anyone, he was indexing it with his hand.. ie. checking orientation of grip and holster..

I am going to start reading the regional code for my state of washington. In case I fall in, would anyone with experience mind pm'ing me info on the subject?

Can you prove "brandishing" sight unseen?

-heres what the washington code states-

RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.


(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Last edited by BOMAN; December 9, 2008 at 12:15 AM. Reason: located the RCW for brandishing in WA state
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Old December 9, 2008, 07:50 AM   #88
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As the OP I'd just like to say let's please keep the discussion civil. Whoever would like to is allowed to disagree with my actions, that's why this is such a great country that we live in. :-)

So, back to our regularly scheduled program

Edit: And, just as an aside. I'm almost entirely certain that if anyone here who questions my actions had been in my shoes and had the said individual coming towards them this discussion wouldn't have gone on quite as long.
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Old December 9, 2008, 08:32 AM   #89
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I feel particularly vulnerable while I'm taking the kids out of their carseats or putting them back in while in parking lots. I've tried to explain to the wife that at least one of us should have 'their head on a swivel' keeping an eye out while loading or unloading the car but sometimes you get in a hurry and forget these things. I've told the wife to get into the van, close the doors and lock them before buckling up the kids if she is alone.
I do the exact same thing. Actually, while she buckles the kids in, I stand by the car, blocking the door she's using. Either that, or I'm loading groceries into the trunk, watching.
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Old December 9, 2008, 10:46 AM   #90
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That's "brandishing" in this state, a gross misdemeanor, Class A to put a fine point on it.

Brandishing or.... if it's justified, preparing to defend oneself. Otherwise, anyone who used a gun in SD would be charged with brandishing even if the situation warranted the use of the gun...
"Well, we can't get him for murder, it was obviously self defense, but he sure as heck did brandish that weapon. Brandished 2 rounds COM I'd say."

I'm sure this dirt bag went looking for the closest cop to accuse the OP of brandishing. It is beyond my comprehension how anyone could not consider this guy a threat. I'm not belittling anyone. You can see things how you want. When this happens to (any of) you let us know how it turns out, if and when you get out of the hospital. The simple fact of the idling, apparently hidden car is 90% enough to convince me. The actions of the guy go beyond 100% convincing in my book. The reasons why have been discussed ad nauseam and I'll not repeat them again.
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Old December 9, 2008, 12:03 PM   #91
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I think you acted fine. I have been approached by these types twice, and both were trying to sell stolen goods from a nearby car. They were certainly criminals, but very likely they were trying to sell stolen goods, or an empty stereo box with a brick inside, shrink wrapped...a popular ghetto scam.
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Old December 9, 2008, 01:51 PM   #92
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I hate to be a dissenter here, but what makes you think this wasn't an innocent encounter with a stranger in need to which you reacted in a paranoid "I'm going to enhance my manhood by thinking firearm" sort of way?

Think of it from the other guy's point of view. He's in need of directrions or a jump start. He approaches, and all of a sudden, you confront, and it becomes a firearm situation? Suddenly he might feel threatened. But it was you who escalated by throwing down. Did you see a firearm?

A better approach would be to stop thinking gun play, which you did only because you were carrying, and just be a normal guy. Be cool, be ready, but don't assume it's a threat. Assuming every stranger is a threat makes you a paranoid a-hole. Unless you are inexperienced with your firearm, you can be prepared without going there. With proper experience, you could have been both helpful and safe. Note the word "proper." Lots of people with experience are too juiced by attitude to react sensibly.

If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Sorry to be a buzzkill, but this isn't about feeling good; it's about being safe and responsible.
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Old December 9, 2008, 02:25 PM   #93
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But it was you who escalated by throwing down.
When did I "throw down"?
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Old December 9, 2008, 02:31 PM   #94
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Think of it from the other guy's point of view. He's in need of directrions or a jump start.
For the third or fourth time: His car was RUNNING!! He didn't need a jumpstart! It was hidden from view, as stated before,from anyone leaving the store, lights off. That's either intentional or one heck of a coincidence.

He said "Can I talk to you?" When the answer was "No!" he didn't say "What?Well, I mean I just was wondering where X is?" What he DID DO was move FASTER in the direction of the OP! People who need help and get "No!" for an answer simply go looking elsewhere. It's a store for crying out loud. They have phone and employees and plenty of other, friendlier (read less observant in this case) customers to ask for help.

The OP made NO MOVES WHATSOEVER that an "innocent" would have considered threatening. Only a CCW holder (even not most of them) or BG would consider his actions to be preparation for a fight. No normal person looking for directions would be thinking "gun".
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Old December 9, 2008, 04:32 PM   #95
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The guy probably wanted a jump start for his dead battery. He may have been lost and looking to ask for directions. What is it about these forums where everyone walks around hyper-vigilant and expecting they'll be assaulted at every turn?
Then let him go into WalMart and take care of his business. They sell both batteries and maps in there 24/7.

I dont talk to anyone after dark in a parking lot, I dont care if they look innocent, have little kids with them, got a halo around their head or a Pope hat on. It can all be a scam. Use your head.
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Old December 9, 2008, 10:43 PM   #96
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A couple of points -

If Mr Headspace would care to share his location, perhaps we could have a better discussion of "brandishing", but I don't know of anywhere where just reaching into you jacket, shirt, or whatever would qualify. Indeed, in cases where some ding-dong (cops included) shot someone for reaching for thier wallet/ID/cell phone/whatever, it generally didn't go well for the shooter. If you can't clearly see a weapon, you'd best not shoot.

I have on occasion, in a situation I felt was threatening, reached inside my jacket as if I had 'a little something' - pure bluff, but it worked fine in that it got the person(s) I found threatening to go 'whoa' and either expain themselves or decide that they had no business with me. Just lucky, I guesss, but darn sure not 'brandishing'.

There is a right way and a wrong way to approach someone for directions, whatever. First is to get their attention and permission to approach in a respectful manner. In the case cited, the guy called out and was denied, yet he kept coming. This would put me on a bright orange, if not full red alert. When the OP made a move that suggested he was preparing to defend himself, a 'normal' person would likely stop dead in their tracks, make both hands visible, and say something to the effect of, "whoa, sorry to bother you, dude . . .", and back off, not trot off to a concealed running vehicle and speed off. As noted, there was plenty of info or assistance available a few yards away inside the store . . .

I thought Sparks described the situation quite clearly, and I'm suprised at the number of folks who read the situation as innocent or unthreatening. I hope you won't have to see the error of your perceptions the hard way (JMNSHO).

I'm almost old, and I didn't get here by being unaware, unobservant, or stupid. Live & learn, or maybe learn & live, YMMV
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Last edited by Mike in VA; December 9, 2008 at 11:24 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old December 10, 2008, 09:59 AM   #97
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Sorry Mike in VA. I have to disagree, and to paraphrase, I'm surprised at the number of people who found the situation to be so sinister and threatening.
I'm also almost old(and I've had guns pointed at me before) and I've learned to assess a situation in an ascending scale of threat potential, not the other way around.
The reason I don't say OP made a mistake is that I wasn't there with my pregnant wife by my side. I only say that, to ME, the situation doesn't spike my danger radar.

Last edited by fawcettlee; December 10, 2008 at 09:09 PM. Reason: My HS English teacher must be rolling in her grave...
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Old December 10, 2008, 11:33 AM   #98
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I think it went well. I don't see anything wrong considering you never displayed the weapon. It's easy to say his response was overdone, but just remember that we don't get all of the non-verbal information that the original poster did. He AND his wife both recognized that something was amiss and he responded prudently. The guy was very aggressive and didn't listen to a request - not normal for somebody asking for directions at that late hour. It's a sad day when level headed people are nearly restrained by the legal ramifications of being prepared to defend themselves in a reasonable way. I'm not a big guy, and if somebody was coming at me at a moderate pace in a dark parking lot and actively ignoring my requests that he keep his distance, I'm going to consider that pretty threatening. I'm not going to expose a weapon, but I'm sure as heck going to be ready to.

I've read books written by defense experts that detailed personal encounters such as this. Some of these experts responded to similar situations with less restraint than the OP.

Last edited by NAKing; December 10, 2008 at 11:40 AM.
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Old December 10, 2008, 09:27 PM   #99
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Brandishing?? You are kidding right?

Someone please post the elements of that crime (from the actual code).
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Old December 10, 2008, 10:31 PM   #100
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I dont talk to anyone after dark in a parking lot, I dont care if they look innocent, have little kids with them, got a halo around their head or a Pope hat on. It can all be a scam. Use your head.
Bingo! Good strategy. And you know something? More than likely, if this was the opposite and had gone bad for the OP, because he was kind to the stranger, the same people that are crucifying him would probably be the ones in here saying he should have used his head.

Yeah, he just needed a jump....come on people!
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