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Old November 30, 2008, 01:35 PM   #51
vox rationis
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I consider the material in the links below a must read and exactly on topic:

how to recognize and avoid violent crime

the interview: where the criminal decides if you are safe to attack
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Old November 30, 2008, 05:22 PM   #52
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"...ooo, she walkin' *tall*."

I'll take all the big scary bad guys the ghetto ever spit at me over the one guy I let myself consider "family" for one second too long.
Ginger:

Great post! I agree that (especially for females) the wrong guy allowed "inside the family" is more dangerous than anybody out in the streets.
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Old November 30, 2008, 08:30 PM   #53
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Requisite Monday morning quarterbacking: - and this is something I'm trying to ingrain in myself - go ahead and get that flashlight on him right away. I think you were right in not clearing leather yet, but I think we are all a little to worried about being "rude" and lighting a questionable petitioner up. We should all have "tactical" grade flashlights, and should put them in play as soon as things start to deviate from Baseline Mayberry Standard.
I too have gotten into carrying a flashlight at most times (I don't if I know for a fact that I will be home before the sun goes down) and I am not tactical.

I carry a single AAA LED $3 pen style light from Wally World that I put in my mouth (switched on, of course) and exit my vehicle.

I realize that it could make my head a target , but most BG's are going to have their eyes blinded by that intense LED in the dark.

In one pocket is a hand on a gun...

In the other is the house keys...

I do adjust accordingly when I have to carry packages into the house.

I dare some stupid, unprepared azzhat to think he is going to get his way with me.

Last edited by cold dead hands; December 1, 2008 at 10:46 PM.
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Old November 30, 2008, 08:48 PM   #54
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Hi all,
For the sake of argument lets say Spark's wife's water breaks. "Oh crap" I need to call 911 and dont have a phone. He jumps from the car and looks around a noisy parking lot hoping to find someone who can make the call for paramedics. "There's a guy" "Hey buddy, can I talk to you?" In the noisy lot he approaches the fellow looking for help after not hearing his reply from such a distance. At somewhere around 75 feet out he sees that the fellow is standing with a hand on a gun and he decides he will drive his wife to the hospital himself, hops in his car and takes off.
As the father of two children (one being an ER visit premature birth) a real man doesn't start looking for a cell phone to call the Paramedics.

He gets on the gas and stops long enough to tell the cops to lead or follow to the the hospital.

Have you heard the story about the time I did 90 in a 40 zones to a hospital to save my Grandmother. You are below contempt in your defense of a potential murder of three...she is pregnant.

I am not a criminal, but I do remember that the basic rule is...Leave no witnesses.

Again I reiterate (buy a dictionary if your vocabulary is lacking)...you are a below contempt and I will (for the first time ever) call you a troll....

Mods, I do apologize... pardon my French?
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Old November 30, 2008, 08:48 PM   #55
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I think the rude thing bears careful thought.

If someone asks me if they can pet my dog, I am put in a position of saying NO or of ignoring them, in other words, of possibly seeming rude. Ditto with a handshake...A man extends his hand to me, a lady, and I am put in a position of having to touch him, or of *seeming* unfriendly.

So when I say "no, thank you" and decline to shake his hand, or reply "do Not touch my dog," it's with confidence and comfort, as I have already taken the time to consider where the rudeness began.
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Old November 30, 2008, 08:58 PM   #56
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Had it been me I would have let the fellow come forward some and things might have ended tragically for one of us. (unquote)
So you actually WANT to get killed or kill someone?
He said that he is 75 years old...he is ready to die at the hand of thug...I guess...

Or he is dumb enough to trust anyone.


It would help if you guys would read and comprehend the the whole post of the person you disagree with...
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Old November 30, 2008, 09:04 PM   #57
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At 75 feet out I dont feel threatened by the guys actions. To let him come closer under the circumstances is not an invitation to victimize me either. Again, does anyone know what he wanted or what his intentions were? No.
Did this man threaten anyone other than approaching to 75 feet out?
Sorry guys. I still dont see the threat.
You do know that a person like me (I am not a threat!!!) can take your crown off at 75 with my short barreled .380.

Professional criminals do practice with their weapons of choice.

Did I mention that the defacto standard is that you leave no witnesses?
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Old November 30, 2008, 09:11 PM   #58
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..and a *much* more common hunting groung for the garden variety panhandler. "Hey man, can I get some gas money?..."
(Marie Antoinette voice) Then let them beg at the gas station (/Marie Antoinette voice)

Last edited by cold dead hands; December 1, 2008 at 10:31 PM. Reason: syntax error
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Old November 30, 2008, 09:39 PM   #59
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"Trust your gut" is one of my cardinal rules in life. The OP trusted his, and it sounds to me as if he did exactly the right thing.

A friend of mine, who doesn't carry, once walked into a convenience store for a soda. She said something just didn't feel right; "the hair on the back of my neck was standing up." She decided to forego the soda and left. When she got home, she heard that the store had been robbed about two minutes after she'd left.
There was one night, yeah, many moons ago, when I stopped for cigs at the behest of my friend.

I saw a car dart into the "stop and rob" and a (not a racist comment, just fact) black youngster jumped out of the the car and was walking very quickly to the entrance.

For whatever reason my friend looked back at me and I was on full alert, having seen what he barely noticed at first.

I made a motion that indicated that he return to to my car and we left at high speed.

Maybe dude needed to pee really bad....

I didn't want to find out one way or the other!
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Old November 30, 2008, 09:59 PM   #60
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Holy cow!

Why are people getting so heated in their responses?

The only thing we know for sure is that the couple was approached in a parking lot by a guy, 30-40 yards away, who called out to them; didn't stop approaching them when prompted until he was 20 yards away; drove away when faced with a possibly armed person.

NOBODY knows for sure that person was out to kill the couple.

OK. The water breaking scenario was too fantastic to take seriously, but since the Wmart is just off a highway, what if it was a guy who pulled off cause he was lost and wanted directions? What if he didn't hear the negative response from 30-40 yards away and so kept on coming? Remember what the guy yelled to Sparks wasn't entirely intelligible to him from that distance. After saying no and a hand gesture from 30-40 yards out, do you give up on the non-deadly response? At what point does the gun come out? 18 yards? 15 yards? 12 yards? How about repeatedly yelling at the guy to stop?
Is that area of Ohio that deadly that you go straight from saying stop to the most extreme response?

I live in one of the deadliest cities in the country. Two blocks south of my door is busy with druggies and gunfire. I pass druggies all the time. People get killed in my neighborhood.(The nearest being half a block away, a day after I saw her working in her garden.) The park where I walk my dog and for which I coordinate monthly cleanups by concerned citizens is littered with drug bags around the benches. If I pulled out a gun(were I was allowed to CCW by my fair state) every time someone yells out something and/or approaches me, I'd be in a cell.

Maybe that's why I'm having a hard time relating to Spark's course of action in that situation.
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Old November 30, 2008, 10:00 PM   #61
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One big problem that your average "good" person has is leaving "friendly politeness" at the curb when it comes to personal safety.

I think you did it right by quickly saying NO! you can not! Most average people would have second guessed themselves and allowed the stranger to come up and talk to them before making a decision to avoid him. All our lives we have been taught that we should be polite. We have been taught this so much that most would rather put themselves in a awkward situation rather than hurt someones feelings or being seen as (rude).

Being direct/firm when talking to strangers is neither rude or abusive.

Your quick verbal reaction helped by giving you further evidence of his possible intent when he failed to follow your command.

The fact that you didnt pull your weapon shows your control. You took each step as you needed to and didnt over-react.

I am glad it turned out well.
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Old November 30, 2008, 11:26 PM   #62
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It's odd though the numerous amount of possible scenarios of what was really happening at that time...

The guy was broke and wanted to "bum" some money and built up enough courage to ask someone, but that someone looked to be getting ready to pull out a gun, so removing himself from the vicinity of the whacko, he left the area immediately with his daughter strapped in the back seat... worrying he's going to run out of gas and can't get back home.

I doubt that's it, but who knows what really was going to happen. I get asked frequently if I have some $$ to spare. If the situation was the same, having a pregnant wife, etc, I think I would have done the same thing as well.

Good job.

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Old November 30, 2008, 11:35 PM   #63
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His car was running; he wasn't trying to get money for gas.
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Old December 1, 2008, 09:29 AM   #64
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Why are people getting so heated in their responses?
Yeah, it's no big deal guys, it happened to me and I'm not getting all worked up over what other people think. It's a discussion, everyone is entitled to their opinion, let's try to remember that.

Quote:
The only thing we know for sure is that the couple was approached in a parking lot by a guy, 30-40 yards away, who called out to them; didn't stop approaching them when prompted until he was 20 yards away; drove away when faced with a possibly armed person.
Had a running vehicle concealed with it's lights off...

Quote:
NOBODY knows for sure that person was out to kill the couple.
Even I don't think he was OUT to kill us. Dead is what happens to you when the BG who's IQ isn't that high in the first place thinks the situation will somehow be better if there's no one left to testify against them in court. Or when my wife can't get her wedding ring off fast enough to suit him and he decides to pistol whip her for non compliance, or when etc... etc...

Robberies are not friendly events.

Quote:
OK. The water breaking scenario was too fantastic to take seriously, but since the Wmart is just off a highway, what if it was a guy who pulled off cause he was lost and wanted directions? What if he didn't hear the negative response from 30-40 yards away and so kept on coming? Remember what the guy yelled to Sparks wasn't entirely intelligible to him from that distance. After saying no and a hand gesture from 30-40 yards out, do you give up on the non-deadly response? At what point does the gun come out? 18 yards? 15 yards? 12 yards? How about repeatedly yelling at the guy to stop?
Is that area of Ohio that deadly that you go straight from saying stop to the most extreme response?
I heard exactly what he said, I just didn't want to insert the urban vocabulary since the point of the post wasn't about his grammar.

I also guarantee you that he heard me very clearly. I'm loud in FTF conversations (I don't have a good inside voice) if you put me outside at night with no other noise then I'm VERY easy to hear, especially when I want to be.

FACTS:
  1. He only called to us when he saw that I noticed him.
  2. When I replied in the negative he paused, then began walking towards us quicker than he had been before.
  3. He only stopped approaching when I made what could be considered a threatening gesture.
  4. He exited the scene in a vehicle that had been left running with it's lights off, concealed from view for ANYONE coming from the store. Get away car much?

Or, maybe I'm just paranoid...
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Old December 1, 2008, 10:15 AM   #65
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Just a thought

Hi all,
For the sake of argument lets say Spark's wife's water breaks. "Oh crap" I need to call 911 and dont have a phone. He jumps from the car and looks around a noisy parking lot hoping to find someone who can make the call for paramedics. "There's a guy" "Hey buddy, can I talk to you?" In the noisy lot he approaches the fellow looking for help after not hearing his reply from such a distance. At somewhere around 75 feet out he sees that the fellow is standing with a hand on a gun and he decides he will drive his wife to the hospital himself, hops in his car and takes off.
Well? Who knows? Does anyone know what this fellow wanted?
If he needed help he could have walked into the Walmart which was open and asked to use the phone, his car wouldn't have been running with the lights off hidden from view, he would have parked in the fire lane, or heck even drove faster to the hospital without stopping.

He was looking to rob some easy mark and take their car and cell phone at the very least. I doubt he saw the gun, most likely he read your body language, saw you were ready for a fight, and decided to look for an easier mark.

You did good, and saved yourself from a robbery and assault. If he had been a panhandler, he would hev waited for the next person to come out and asked them for money.
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Old December 1, 2008, 12:21 PM   #66
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If I pulled out a gun(were I was allowed to CCW by my fair state) every time someone yells out something and/or approaches me, I'd be in a cell.
funny, I dont remember the OP ever pulling his gun...

Congrats to the OP for defusing a potentially bad situation without doing anything potentially considered illegal (brandishing). I think many of you are missing that point... Had he pulled his gun at the first sign of trouble, I think we can agree on overreaction. But to imply that anything he did (from his own words) were anything other than common sense, is just insane...
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Old December 1, 2008, 12:35 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Sparks2112
FACTS:
He only called to us when he saw that I noticed him.
When I replied in the negative he paused, then began walking towards us quicker than he had been before.
He only stopped approaching when I made what could be considered a threatening gesture.
He exited the scene in a vehicle that had been left running with it's lights off, concealed from view for ANYONE coming from the store. Get away car much?

Or, maybe I'm just paranoid...
I can't imagine how anyone could NOT consider this guy a threat. Your response was exactly right.

I really don't think any "regular" person would have consider your response to be threatening. A BG looking for trouble is going to be aware of what preparation for a fight looks like, he knew what he saw and beat feet. His response alone tells us everything we need to know.
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Old December 1, 2008, 01:52 PM   #68
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It would help if you guys would read and comprehend the the whole post of the person you disagree with...
I read the entire post and interpreted it to mean he would prefer to have let the confrontation escalate to a shooting rather than try to end it before it began like the OP.
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Old December 1, 2008, 08:44 PM   #69
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Hmmm.

Maybe it IS because I live where I live and something like this is not an uncommon occurrence that I just don't feel the imminent danger.
The only time I've felt really at risk was when I was almost jumped in my backyard at 230am as I was taking out the trash by a guy, who was 15 feet from me. He was scoping me out from under a tree but I retreated back into my house and nothing happened. (In my city, you have to retreat, even in your home if that option is open to you, before you can use deadly force.)
I'm not in any way suggesting that's what you or anyone else should do. I think as soon as someone breaks into my home, I should be able to defend myself as I see fit. I'm just saying my danger radar didn't go off from what you described.
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Old December 1, 2008, 10:38 PM   #70
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Quote:It would help if you guys would read and comprehend the the whole post of the person you disagree with...
Quote:
I read the entire post and interpreted it to mean he would prefer to have let the confrontation escalate to a shooting rather than try to end it before it began like the OP.
Who is this "he" you refer you to?

Please clarify. Sometimes just quoting people makes a bit of a comprehension mess.

I am going to assume that you think the OP wanted to escalate the situation to a final outcome of a shooting by not allowing the potential predator to come near him by preparing to draw if needed in order to protect himself and his family.

Or do I not comprehend at this time?

Last edited by cold dead hands; December 1, 2008 at 10:51 PM.
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Old December 3, 2008, 03:43 PM   #71
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I think one small thing the detractors of the original poster are missing is that most people, upon seeing they made someone "on edge" is to stop, possibly hold up their hands a little (kinda like, whoa!) and physically shift gears from aggresive to passive. If it was something important, that is when they would ask it. Thats where you learn what they really wanted. If they keep coming at you, something is going wrong.

Think about it, you walk into a co-workers office to ask them something, they snap at you a bit, what do you immediately do? You stop, pull up short a bit, downshift a little & then ask the question.

This dude was into his mental script, and the initial "NO" threw him off. He hesitated, went back on script and kept approaching, recognized the body language the OP was giving, stopped & gave up on the script that was no longer working for him.

THAT is how you tell a random innocent encounter from something about to go bad.

IMO, YMMV

Good job Sparky
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Old December 3, 2008, 04:16 PM   #72
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Good job

No need to repeat why. The naysayers - nyah, nyah
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Old December 3, 2008, 04:40 PM   #73
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Heart rate and breath rate certainly kicked up quite a bit, I know I had to physically make myself breath slowly during. Also I got EXTREMELY cold in the space of a few seconds of the beginning of the encounter. Once I made it to the car and had driven away I was shaking very badly, teeth chattering, stomach cramps, etc...
Yup, adrenalin dump. Sucks, don't it?

Way back when our ancestors were lizards, they learned to recognize predatory behavior. Your subconscious still knows how to recognize such behavior and it is trying to tell you if you will only listen. One of the important lessons from Gavin de Becker's book Gift of Fear is that too often we want to be polite and we ignore our lizard brain. He interviewed many victims of violent crime and most of them knew something was wrong before any overt signs of an attack. Your lizard brain recognized that he was a predator, you paid attention, took appropriate action, and the predator decided to go after easier prey. Well done.

If the hair starts standing up on the back of your head, realize that your subconscious is trying to tell you something. Your subconscious has probably picked up non-verbal cues (posture, facial expressions, movement) signaling predatory behavior that your conscious thought process has not.
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Old December 3, 2008, 08:04 PM   #74
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I have noticed about couple of the post above have been "what if" this or "what if" that. One thing I have realized is that all we have to go on is our life experience and/or training. If your gut tells you that something is wrong then it probably is. If you begin to second guess yourself then you will probably fail when it come to personal safety. The point is that your response to the situation is reasonable. I do not believe that anyone suggests "busting a thump strap" everytime you hear a twig break. The original poster responded to what he felt was a threat and his response was measured.
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Old December 4, 2008, 06:09 AM   #75
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At this point my wife notices him and moves from my left side, where the guy was approaching from to my right side away from the guy (I was really happy with her that she did this without being told seeing as I previously thought teaching her to think tactically was impossible.)
I love this statement and can sympathize with it. Took me almost two years to teach my wife where to walk, which side to walk on, where to sit, what to do if I engage a possible threat.
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