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Old November 24, 2008, 01:09 PM   #1
L'derry
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Max grain load for '58 Rem

I had some great fun shooting my new '58 Remington New Army this weekend. It's my first C&B revolver. Based on the good info I received from shooters on this forum, all went well.

The Pietta book says that the black powder FFFg charge for a .44 should be 12 gr min - 15 gr max! However, hearing from shooters that they routinely used more podwer, I filled a powder measure to 22 gr with a rather course Pyrodex RS - FFG equiv. (because I had a full bottle). The gun shot pretty accurately. I put about 24 rounds through it.

I'm changing over to FFFg equivalent and would rather use either Pyrodex or Triple 7 over BP.

My questions are: 1.) Is Pietta being overly conservative with 15 grains max? 2.) Is Pyrodex or T7 the better choice for this gun?

Thanks for any info.
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Old November 24, 2008, 01:57 PM   #2
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Black is always best. The other stuff pyrodex & T7 generate higher pressures, you could stretch the frame (not good) with heavy loading.
Tom F.
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Old November 24, 2008, 02:06 PM   #3
freedom475
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Black IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO...Don't shoot that other crap:barf:


You can fill the cylinder with as much 3ff as you want as long as you leave room for the ball to clear when the revolver is cocked.

I found that a full cylinder of pyrodex "P"will not be as loud or as fast over the chrony as a partial load of pyrodex. Not sure why but it will create more pressure at a reduced load.

Do yourself a favor and buy some BoreButter and use it like someone gave it to you.
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Old November 24, 2008, 03:22 PM   #4
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If it's a steel frame you can stuff as much bp or Pyrodex as you can and still have the cylinder turn without hurting it. A brass frame is only good for moderate loads. I use 35 grs. of Pyrodex in my .44's. I have used 40+ but the recoil is hard on your second knuckle with a Remington. Some folks will tell you they're only accurate with 15-20 grs. but that's not been my experience with two Remingtons and a Colt. I can hold groups to less than three inches at 25 yds. offhand. It may not win any competitions but it's good enough for me. Bore butter is good but it's runny in sumer heat as is crisco. Under ball wads are much less messy but kinda pricey if you shoot a lot. I make my own wads and lube.
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Old November 24, 2008, 05:51 PM   #5
L'derry
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Thanks for the replies!

Well it sounds as though Pietta recommending only 15 gr of BP as max load, is being very conservative.

I guess I'll go with BP rather than Pyrodex or T7. I'll try a few different loads from 20 gr to maybe 30 gr.

I also read that using corn meal on top of a lubed wad to raise the ball to the top of the cylinder is a good idea. Supposedly improves accuracy by shortening the distance the ball has to travel to engage the barrel and rifling. Comments?

If using a lubed wad, is it still necessary to put lube over the ball?
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Old November 24, 2008, 06:07 PM   #6
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Yes lube over the seated ball, it's called insurance against chain fire.
Tom F.
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Old November 24, 2008, 06:16 PM   #7
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Yes & No

In my 44 Rem, I used 20 grs Goex FFF and enough "Cream-of-Wheat" to bring
the ball up to about 1/16 from the end of the cyclinder. I put just a small
amount of lube over the ball for luberation. I don't think you have to do this,
it's just what I do. I only load one chamber at a time when shooting a match.
This is to keep the gun the same weight on the first shot to the last. I still
put a little lube over the ball. I wish I could still shoot 3 inch groups at 25yds.
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Old November 24, 2008, 07:04 PM   #8
long rider
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OK guys, like i have said before all you need to shoot
a good old remmy is

REAL BLACK POWDER
A 454 RB
And to top of a nice helping of
bees wax and crisco, pick your owen
CAPS. HEY what more can
i say.
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Old November 24, 2008, 07:09 PM   #9
kwhi43@kc.rr.com
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Lube

Oh my lube is a mixture of Bees Wax and jet airplane sinthectic 50 wt. oil
The bees that make it are Ohio bees bred just for this porpoise.
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Old November 24, 2008, 07:15 PM   #10
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OH OK.
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Old November 24, 2008, 07:30 PM   #11
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I have 2 loads that after over a year & some modification to my Pietta 1858 NMA with it's 5.5" barrel that shoots quite well out of it.

Bullet = .457 143 grain Cast Round Ball .065 BC.
Powder = Goex FFFg black powder.
Primer = Remington #11
Lubed wads.
5-1/2” Barrel Average Ballistics.
22gr. Volume = 642 fps. 130 ft. Lbs.
Very accurate out to 30 yards "that I've tried" averaging about 2" grouping, just have to aim high because of the sight set up for the next load.

Bullet = .456 220 grain Cast Lee conical bullet .138 BC.
Powder = Goex FFFg black powder.
Primer = Remington #11
5-1/2” Barrel Average Ballistics.
30gr. Volume = 702 fps. 240 ft. lbs.
Decent accuracy averaging 3 - 3.5 inch groups at 30 yards but is a hard hitter for coyotes & what ever else.

I have 2 other 1858's & a 1860 & yes Pietta is very conservative in their propellent ammount, but from my experience these pistols like the real black Powder the most in the accuracy department but will shoot Pyrodex P quite well too, unless you really need to I would avoid using 777 because it is quite finiky on how much compression you put on the powder when you seat the bullet compared to Pyrodex or Black.
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Old November 25, 2008, 03:21 AM   #12
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L'derry, Brass frame or steel 20-25 gr of Black Powder fffg is a safe and most ccurate load in the 1858 NMA Remingtons...I would exceed 28 in a brass frame for a prolonged period...shoot um up and clean um up, but I recommend usin' Black powder and stay away from Triple7...if ya try it use ffg not fffg. is not consistant in C&B Revs...

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Old November 25, 2008, 02:00 PM   #13
Hawg
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Quote:
Yes lube over the seated ball, it's called insurance against chain fire.
It's not necessary to do both. One or the other is fine.
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Old November 25, 2008, 08:24 PM   #14
L'derry
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Thanks, I appreciate all the replies.

I put some T/C 1000 lube over the balls prior to shooting. I noticed the stuff melted on the remaining balls after only one or two shots. I hadn't used any meal over the wads and prior to loading the ball, so the balls were well down in the cylinder chamber and the lube melted down into and around them.

Next time I'll try it with some corn meal under the ball. Seems like with the tight fitting ball (shaving a .454 ball), meal, and lubed wad, a spark getting to the powder would be extremely unlikely. But then, that's what insurance is about.

Number 11 caps seem to blow up and fragment something fierce. I was going to try those little rubber sleeves over them, but now can't find who sells them. I know I saw them offered online somewhere. Anybody have a link?
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Old November 25, 2008, 09:40 PM   #15
Raider2000
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The caps fragmenting like that is a normal occurence & those pieces of rubber to contain the caps will not help in this respect & will be a waste of money.

Those rubber sleeves are really for when you hunt with a side lock rifle like many of us have in weat weather to keep that end of the weapon dry & still able to fire.
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Old December 1, 2008, 04:41 PM   #16
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I've shot close to 1000 rds with my '58 pietta. I've tried endless combinations of lubes, wads, powder charges, fillers, ball sizes, etc. Finally settled on this:


#10 CCI caps (They fit better on my gun)
35 gr pyrodex P
Ox Yoke wonder wad
.454 balls

I also use a wad to clean the cylinder pin after every 18 shots.

Have fun!
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Old December 3, 2008, 02:31 AM   #17
L'derry
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Thanks for the info.

#11 caps, even when I squeeze them first, seem to blow off when I shoot, so I tried #10s, and they seem to hold on OK.

I've used 25 gr of powder, and 30 gr. Didn't see a change in accuracy. I was able to shoot good groups with each from 20 yards. Recoil wasn't a problem.

I've chewed up two Traditions revolver nipple wrenches with only a few uses. Have to find a better quality, tougher steel nipple wrench.

BTW, it's hoot to shoot! I love it.
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Old December 3, 2008, 08:48 AM   #18
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This is a very good nipple wrench.

I'm going to go against common wisdom here and state that the shaved lead ring, not the lube over the ball that prevents chain fires, Lube is not going to stop the hot gases. IMHO chain fires are more a nipple problem than anything else. (flame on)

I find the lube over ball to be extremely messy and is one of the reason I sold my ROA years ago. I have started using grease cookies and wish I had known about thirty years ago. The grease coolie provides all the lube you need and it keeps the fouling soft.

For my 1858's I shoot
28-30gr
grease cookie
rb with no lube over ball.
#10 cap
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Old December 3, 2008, 09:32 AM   #19
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you're right builder, it is the tight fight of ball/slug to the chamber that is important, and loose caps are a likely cause of chain fires.
I shoot Lee mold slugs in my '58 Rem 'Bufflao' model and my ROA, I lube the slugs by warming them up in an old can and melting beeswax and crico in with them, stirring around then pouring off the grease through a screen I made that catches the slugs and cool them down then store. placeing lube atop the slugs is unnecessary and messy.
I use a 7.62X39 case as a powder measure it's about 32 grs. I place a felt stamped from duro-felt 1/16" thick atop then the slug. it's not quite a max charge but plenty powerful enough to drive the slug through a jack pine that stopped a 125gr .357. I've killed 2 wild/feral hog w/it.
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Old December 3, 2008, 02:49 PM   #20
L'derry
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Madcrate:

Thanks for the link on the nipple wrench. I just placed and order (along with other things I can't live without!)

Not to get off topic, but with the cap disintegration that I see, I can see where a chain fire could occur from an adjacent cap being touched off.
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Old December 3, 2008, 04:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
I'm going to go against common wisdom here and state that the shaved lead ring, not the lube over the ball that prevents chain fires
That's a safe bet, since the common wisdom really is that a proper fitting ball, not grease, is chain fire prevention. Most people with more than 30 minutes experience understand that the best insurance against a chain fire is the proper size ball (the lead ring is the evidence that the ball fits properly) AND proper fitting caps. Both are needed, as the chain fire can occur from a leak of plasma at either end.
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Old December 3, 2008, 07:15 PM   #22
Hawg
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I've got a 58 Remington that shaves lead and will chain fire every time if you don't either use wads or over ball lube. You can load all six with 35 grs. and leave five nipples uncapped and it won't chain if the balls are lubed.
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Old December 3, 2008, 09:53 PM   #23
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I'll suggest that the chambers in your '58 are not cylindrical, thus rendering the swaging at the chamber mouth ineffective. The shaved ring is evidence, but not proof, that the chamber is sealed by the ball. There can be imperfections in both the ball and the cylinder that will allow hot plasma to defeat the seal. Lube/grease/wads are effective insurance, but should not be relied upon as the only barrier in such rare cases. In my opinion, wads are the better of the two, but I've conducted no experiments to prove that. I believe that there are far more guns that are effectively sealed by the ball swaging than those that are not, such as your '58.

I'm sure you've seen the nighttime photos of revolvers being fired that clearly show the hot plasma surrounding both the front and back of the cylinders. It seems those photos should be evidence enough that chain fires CAN be initiated from the back of the cylinder.
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Old December 3, 2008, 10:05 PM   #24
Hawg
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Quote:
I believe that there are far more guns that are effectively sealed by the ball swaging than those that are not, such as your '58.
Could be, not arguing the point it's 39 years old (I bought it new) but it's the most accurate bp revolver I have.

Quote:
I'm sure you've seen the nighttime photos of revolvers being fired that clearly show the hot plasma surrounding both the front and back of the cylinders. It seems those photos should be evidence enough that chain fires CAN be initiated from the back of the cylinder.
I've seen some but find it hard to believe flame gets sucked down into the nipple. The Remington I have has #9 nipples and for many years all I could get was #11 caps. A very poor fit indeed. Even tightly pinched they frequently came off. Never had a chain fire originate from the nipple end. Not saying it can't happen but if there ever was a good candidate for it that Remmy is it. Like I said you can load all six and only cap one at a time and as long as the balls are lubed it won't chain. Leave the lube off and anywhere from three to six will go off every time.
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Old October 25, 2009, 05:54 PM   #25
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Interesting thread. 'Specially as I routinely load my Remmie with 40 gr of Pyrodrek "P" with no ill effect. Even with that load it's accurate enough for my purposes and anyway I truly enjoy the flames and so forth, makes it interestin'. Don't want to fool around with packin' meal or double-wadding, which I would have to do if my loads were less robust; it makes me nervous to have the ball suspended over the wad, just hangin' in the air so to speak.

Don't use lube, just wads under a .457 ball and my caps are #10. And most of the time I use keepers on the caps, aquarium tubing cut into bands, because I am convinced that most chain fires occur from the back of the cylinder . At least it makes sense to me, especially since caps tend to go to hell pretty regular and besides having one one or more of 'em fall into the works can make cylinder rotation a pretty iffy proposition.

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