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Old November 21, 2008, 10:31 AM   #26
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Is this person really a freind?

Her wording to you is a bit disrespectful. Friendship starts with mutual respect.
I think your response to her was very well put. If she doesn't understand that and can't accept you for who you are then maybe you just can't be friends.
It's too bad, I think that having friends around the world is good to give us all a perspective on the bigger picture.

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Old November 21, 2008, 12:50 PM   #27
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In this particular case, your definition/view of "friend" must be skewed. As Rick stated above she is showing zero respect towards you. It is time to cycle this acquaintance out of your life.

Also Pahoo and jdscholer are right on in their assessments.
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Old November 21, 2008, 01:49 PM   #28
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I feel for you and the feeling that your "friend" has turned on you. Many antis have the misconception that hunting equates murder, but they live in a fairy-tale world where man is the only killer and animals live together in harmony. They also equate guns with violence. If they understood reality and were observers of the world around them, they would hardly feel that way.

Next time you are accused of being a killer, simply smile and ask them where they get their food. If they are meat-eaters, someone has to kill the animals for them, so they are complicit in the crime. If they are vegetarians, they are complicit in the poisoning and starving of untold thousands of animals due to farming practices. If they are vegetarians and they use animal products, they are wasteful, because the only way to get leather or stearate (found in cosmetics and lotions) is to kill the animal they came from. Instead of pointing fingers at everyone else, let them examine their own lives and they will find they are just as guilty of killing as someone who pulls a trigger.

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Old November 21, 2008, 02:41 PM   #29
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Hi everyone,

Thanks for all of your great points; they are all excellent...

Oh, and I don't really feel betrayed or anything; more along the lines of shocked, b/c you think you know someone & think that they have some sense, but then they show you how nutty they are! That they have no grasp of reality, and live in a fantasy land, and are convinced that YOU are the one who is crazy. And to top it off, they do it while shoving meat dinners in their mouths at that very same moment!!

Just goes to show that if someone you are close to can be this crazy, this unopen to logic, no matter how many scientific facts & examples you give them, then there is probably no hope for the millions of p.e.t.a. strangers that are even crazier than this girl is!
To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw
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Old November 21, 2008, 06:03 PM   #30
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Are you guys serious? Between work and family, I really don't have sufficient time to spend with my hunting buddies and shooting friends. Why the hell waste time trying having "liberal" friends. Strap on a set, tell her to go to hell, call your buds and go to the range !
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Old November 21, 2008, 06:12 PM   #31
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Or send them pictures of your 16 year old daughter proudly displaying a .22 rifle and a head shot bunny... Or your 17 year old son posing with 3 others and their dogs with a 200 pound sow hog on top of the dog box...
Least I would... I have relatives that were raised in heavily hunting oriented families and some how turned into vile tree hugging dead cow eaters!
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Old November 21, 2008, 06:19 PM   #32
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You have much more patience than me. I've lost a few "friends" because of discussions just like that.
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Old November 21, 2008, 06:33 PM   #33
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I personally treat it like a discussion about religion,everybody has and is entitled to their beliefs ,opinions and theories.Just don't disrespect mine and I wont yours.
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Old November 21, 2008, 07:23 PM   #34
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i would give them 5 minutes of my time after that if they still don't comprehend the situation i'd break off the friendship,sorry thats me.

i'd explain as nicely as possible, that guns are not evil, they have the ability to enslave and free people alike. good people do good things with them but bad people do bad things with them. that does not make all guns bad. its not the tool its how it is used. misuse a carjack and see what happens,or a cordless drill or an air compressor.

hunting is not murder, how do you think that slab of beef got on your plate? did the cow just fall over dead from a heart attack? do you think the chickens run to the axe neck first? what about that thanksgiving turkey, did that just fall over dead of natural causes?

another thing that hunting does besides being out and one with nature enjoying the peace of the mountains or the fields or woods and streams. its animal population control, if there are too many animals and not enough food,you have animals going in peoples gardens and farms eating the food they grow for themselves,families or customers. orwould you rather have them dying of starvation,crossing roads in front of you get food, if they don't make it they get hit and damage your car.

do you want that kind of hassle? how would you feel if your garden was being eaten by the animals because there were too many and there was no control, too many states have towns where the people/township banned hunting. cars are hitting them left and right,people are b@#$#^%$ because their farms and gardens are being eaten,they have damage they can't regrow the crops quickly. they are hitting the animals particulary deer with their cars,trucks and causing thousands of dollars in damage to them. if one comes up into and through the windshield you could get killed. or you swerve to try an avoid the collision you hit a tele pole or another vehicle, and kill another driver or their family.

so would you rather have you or your best friend die from an animal coming through the windshield or your car, or would you rather a hunter keep them under control to prevent that from happening?

if after that they are still hellbent on their ways of anti gun/anti hunting. i would tell them to take a long walk on a short pier,or something similar .
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Old November 21, 2008, 07:41 PM   #35
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I'll second that Rem! Nature looks great until they're over run by critters! Then the tune changes a bit. Two other benefits hunting and trapping provide is an accurate assessment on disease in the area among animals that may effect domestic animals. Also keeps their numbers in check, without people taking game, the numbers get too high and you have animals dying of famine. Or worse, you have predators begin looking fit joggers in the woods as a tasty meal! And all the money the states generate through hunting and trapping goes towards enforcement of poaching and provides a safe and rewarding experience for anyone who wants to participate. I wouldn't say you can't change anyone's mind, I have a friend, she wont eat any red meat.... I guess chickens aren't really animals or something.... anyway, she thought hunting or trapping especially trapping was cruel. After a number of calm conversations, she's begun to see that you don't just wonder out and shoot something. Or set a trap and any ol thing just walks by and gets it's leg broke and stays out there for days. She now understands there is much effort we put into taking wildlife, and most take a great deal of pride in doing it the right way. She also understands there are many misnomers out there that misrepresent what we do. Of course she still will not eat red meat, or go hunting herself, but does have a new respect for what it is. I think in the end, you handled you conversation well, it's when you let your emotions get in the way, all the facts are then lost. Good job keep you cool and sticking with facts!
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Old November 21, 2008, 08:17 PM   #36
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Thanks, here's more, most of which I learned form that book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Hunting:

And as far a hunting being murder & evil, oh my god, where have you learned such a thing??

No one, and I mean no one, cares about and has done more for Nature than hunters. The money that we spend on licenses and in taxes on equipment has gone to buy, conserve, patrol, and protect millions of acres that would probably be gone if not for that money that we have given. Dozens of species have been managed as a renewable resource that would be extinct today if not for hunters and the money and insistence we contribute to study much land they require, what their reproductive rates are, what dangers do they face from industry, encroachment, pollution, invasive species, etc.

When nature is in trouble, we are the first to sound the alarm and push for legistation to protect it. When species are in trouble, we are the first to protect them, to call for lower harvest limits, and to spread the word of the prtection that is needed.

Dozens of animals have been brought back from enadangered and threatened status by the money we give to help protect them and the land they need.

No one is a greater steward of nature than hunters.

Apart from all of that, certain animals MUST be preyed upon, such as deer. They have been designed by nature to be prey animals, and therefore they have very high reproductive rates. If not preyed upon, they destroy the environment by overgrazing (which kills off other species too) and then starving, and they cause hundreds of car accidents where lots of people actually die from the collisions, and they spread lyme disease. So since they MUST be preyed upon, it's either you let wolves and bears and moutain lions roam around free in the suburbs (where A LOT of deer live now because of so much development) next to your children, or you pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to professional snipers to kill them and waste the meat, or you have hunters pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and then use the meat. The right choice is pretty clear.

Even vegitarians need to thank hunters, because all of the crops in the fields would be eaten if not protected by hunters. OR you'd have to spend millions on fences, and then food would cost 5 times as much, and small farms would not be able to survive financially.

We don’t live in a Disney Land world, and things have to be managed in order to keep them healthy and balanced and protected. Hunters fill that role, and we should be thanked, not cursed.
To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw
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Old November 21, 2008, 08:21 PM   #37
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Just goes to show that if someone you are close to can be this crazy, this unopen to logic, no matter how many scientific facts & examples you give them, then there is probably no hope for the millions of p.e.t.a. strangers that are even crazier than this girl is!
An even more startling truth is that this type of mistake in logic may doom them. This is unsettling but true. The first time I recall hearing of this problem was in the mid 1960's reading Richard Bach's Stranger to the Ground where I was introduced to this two part concept that sometimes people die because of a combination of their own wishful thinking and the harsh external word ... and all anybody, even their best friend can do is merely watch them fall off the radar and mark the spot so somebody can come recover the body.

Now the chances of the external world "going bad" so that an individual bambi hugger dies or is badly hurt from wishful thinking are very low, much lower than the chance of death for a 1961 F-84 pilot like Bach, so they have no real incentive to change. The problem comes once in a generation or once in a century when something "goes really bad", like what is happening now to all those peace loving farmers in The Congo or Haiti or all those peaceful ship crews off the east coast of Africa.
In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.

Last edited by MeekAndMild; November 21, 2008 at 08:37 PM.
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Old November 21, 2008, 08:42 PM   #38
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As a person that has studied medicine a lot I should tell you to inform your friend that she may have Mad Cow Disease of which she probably contracted from eating at McDonalds.

Symptoms include delirious statements frequent head aches and believing anything a liberal anti gun politician says without question.

It also gives people delusions about what is real or not and makes them start thinking the animal they had contracted the disease from is somehow related to them and can talk to them through telepathy.

They find themselves all of a sudden talking to dogs, cats, fish, cows, sheep and any wildlife that comes along including birds as if they were people.

The last known person to die from the disease was a man that thought he could talk to grizzly bears in Alaska and the bears actually put up with him for a while until one day they tore him to shreds and ate him.

She should seek medical help at once before the bears eat her also.
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Old November 21, 2008, 10:51 PM   #39
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I am a second generation German-American (folks came over) and I have most of my extended relations in Europe. My grandfather and several of my uncles were avid hunters in Germany as I am here in the States. The older and more rural people have high respect for hunters - they see them as a vital animal management force ( like keeping wild boar out of a farmers potatoes or wheat). In fact hunters have to lease their land(to hunt) and are fined if they are not doing their job (crop damage)! It is the younger, metropolitan generation that oftentimes have these kooky ideas. The Green Party is particularly extreme - vegan,PETA ideas taken to the extreme. When you want to cut down a tree in your yard you must first a. get a permit and b. purchase and plant two other trees in its place! These people, in espousing their love for nature with these extreme ideas want to lord over everybody their little warped ideas about how Nature should work. They are laughable in their ignorance - so , just laugh at them!
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Old November 21, 2008, 11:09 PM   #40
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nature has dictated that meat eaters fall into one of two categories
Predator or scavenger
Would you rather be compared to a Wolf or a Possum
An Eagle or a Buzzard, a Shark or a Crab?
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Old November 22, 2008, 08:19 PM   #41
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I had a lot of time to think about this today, out in the field looking for Bambi.

Europe has a long tradition of hunting, but only among the landed aristocracy and a few longtime associates. In the last few hundred years the masses of urban commoners had no access to hunting land, no access to guns and no incentive to hunt. So naturally they grew up making excuses, told them to their children, grandchildren et cetera. The ones who could leave did, in the millions. The ones who couldn't leave made up more excuses.

Since the time our US GIs liberated Europe the unwashed masses have had the opportunity to gather the pretense of wealth. But all the fast cars, fancy dresses, government approved dope and aged liquor haven't given them any more hunting land nor any more rights of self defense. There are still a few rich folk who own the land and make sure only a few wealthy friends share it.

So naturally Europeans look askance at their American friends who can buy access to thousands of acres of public hunting lands for less than their fellow Europeans can buy a dinner and drinks. (FYI, my access fee for 50,000+ game management acres is $16.00US, probably enough to buy a waffle in Belgium but not the butter nor syrup.) Its not that they don't understand hunting, they don't understand the freedom to hunt.

So if you want to win this friend over ignore all our advice to argue. Appeal to her eurosocialist sentiment and class envy. Commiserate with her how difficult life must be when you have to color within the lines that some rich son of a banker drew for you.
In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.

Last edited by MeekAndMild; November 22, 2008 at 08:26 PM.
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Old November 22, 2008, 11:04 PM   #42
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Right on the numbers, MeekandMild!

The Europeans are coming from a mindset that diverged from ours hundreds of years ago when our country was colonized. We are indeed like people from different planets in this instance. Our path mirrored the course of humans from the last 10,000 years or so on this continent where hunting to eat was the norm. Her attitude until somewhat recently would have resulted in the natural selection device called starvation. Civilization and domestication are good at hiding the actual mechanism by which live. It is still life in the food chain when you strip away all the smoke and mirrors. Europeans have been at this civilization thing much longer than we have and are thus further down the rabbit hole than we are. I get a perspective on the food chain thing every time I start a dive. Suddenly you aren't the top predator anymore, just another slow moving source of protein...a humbling experience indeed.
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Old November 22, 2008, 11:44 PM   #43
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Meek: You make a good point, but the things she said are verbatim what the antis say here in America, so I think there is some kind of related mental disease all these people share...
To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw
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Old November 23, 2008, 04:26 AM   #44
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These people are not just confined to Europe, which comprises of nearly 50 different countries. In some countries in Europe hunting deer & hogs is common, but England has just banned the traditional fox hunt using beagles & horses. A lot of fringe special interest groups originate in Europe, that are anti-anything, but hunting is still alive & well in parts of Europe. I have a friend that is working on a mining exploration drilling rig in Slovenia in Europe. He e-mailed his uncle & myself last week saying he had passed 6 Fallow Deer, a mob of wild boar, & 3 Red Deer on his way to work, & asked when we were coming over, as he new all the locals that could easily organise a deer hunt for us
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Old November 23, 2008, 04:48 AM   #45
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Quote:'re a murderer for hunting?
No, I'm a killer. There are no innocent animals.
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Old November 23, 2008, 04:18 PM   #46
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Trust me buddy, I understand. My girlfriend of several months decided to tell me how I am a killer. She was not too happy about me hunting. I told her she needed to get used to it because it is not going to change. She asked me not to talk to her about it. I happily agreed and we have been fine ever since. I just treat it like religion and politics. It doesn't hlep that she is a political science major!
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Old November 23, 2008, 04:46 PM   #47
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Here's my liberal-flavored take on it:

I've never gone hunting before in my life.

For a while now I've been making plans to do it, sometime in 2009. It's my New Year's Resolution, as it were. I'm saving for a rifle, and I'll be taking the hunter's safety course once it comes in. I think I can plan arrangements once I get there.

People ask me why I'm doing this. I sit a little to the political left, where this kind of project is generally unfashionable. I don't come from a hunting family. I'm the first person in my family, at least three generations back, to own a gun.

My answer, in short form, is that I think it's my moral obligation. I have to take moral responsibility for my life.

I eat meat. Meat is muscle; meat is flesh. Whether I'm eating a hot dog or coq au vin, bacon or steak, something has to die for my pleasure. It's not necessary; human beings can survive pretty well as vegetarians. As much as we all like to have a good laugh at PeTA's expense, meat is murder, to a certain degree: we don't eat carrion, so meat necessarily involves the selfish, premeditated destruction of life. A living, breathing, feeling animal, not quite like any other before or any other since, has to be snuffed off of the face of the earth... not so that I may live, not even so that I may eat, but only so that I may enjoy my meal.

Most people would like to forget that, I think, and we live in a time where it's very easy. If you live in a reasonably large city, it's possible to go your entire life without ever seeing the animals that die for you. Take a look at the supermarket, and all the rows of skinless, boneless, meaningless meat, all shrink-wrapped for your convenience. You literally never have to bloody your hands.

I'm not really comfortable with that brand of morality, with the idea of unthinking murder-by-proxy. I think it's important to own up to your sins. Is it ever right to eat meat without remembering the animals that died for it? If killing animals for your dining pleasure is wrong, then why is it right to pay someone else to do it?

As a human being, I think it's my responsibility to to look reality in the face, once in a while, to understand it on that visceral kind of level. Animals die for my eating pleasure. If I can't accept that, personally - stare down the scope at a boar and pull the trigger, draw the knife across a chicken's throat, throw a lobster into the pot, gut and clean a fish on my own, whatever - if I can't bring myself to bloody my hands, if the idea of killing my own dinner is that morally repugnant, then vegetarianism becomes my only ethical option.

At the end of the day, it's about self-inspection. I thought that was a liberal value.
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Old November 23, 2008, 05:22 PM   #48
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Adrian, I agree with your take on it even though I have no memory of a gun free home nor do I know of a time when the "roast beast" was just that... us kids never questioned what the beast was when alive. While my wife would rather not try most game... she knows we won't ever starve for want of meat...
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Old November 23, 2008, 05:27 PM   #49
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It's a good thing our predecessors didn't think it was immoral to kill and eat.
Way back to rock and stick hunters in caves, we have hunted and eaten.

Morality isn't a hunting issue. Allowing this diseased thinking spread thru television and theatre that animals have the same conscious thought and relationships as humans do, is the foundation.
If you believe that deer think about how their "family" is dealing with the loss of cousin backstrap, who just got "murdered" by that terrible hunter, you are part of the problem.
Deer think about a couple of things, 1) I hunger 2) I thirst 3) I must breed

4-7) What was that noise, Run Away, Run Away Fast!, Sleep, Deficate, Urinate, Urinate on self, These antlers itch, Urinate to mark territory, etc.

This coincides with every animal in the woods to different degrees.\
Hunt, Harvest your kill, Cook it and say a blessing before eating it.
Be sure to thank your god for providing the beast and thank him for giving you the frontal lobe and opposable thumbs. Also thank him for not dropping you in France.

Bambi's Daddy chased other does too, and didn't help rear the little backstrapper! Don't personalize animals. Silly crap!
Teach a kid to respect wildlife, then teach a kid to hunt and fish.
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Old November 23, 2008, 06:50 PM   #50
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the things she said are verbatim what the antis say here in America
That's true and I think you'll find some places here where the same social dynamics apply. Boston for instance has gone a long way since the tea party and you'd have to travel a long way from Boston to find an open place to hunt.
In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.
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