The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 16, 2008, 08:55 PM   #1
Northslope Nimrod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2004
Posts: 419
Bird Shot for home Defense?

Ok, Many people may slam me on this one but here goes.

I have seen many bullets penetrate several walls, enter neighbors houses, etc. (9mm, 357, 30-30) I have several people in my home. I worry about shooting past my target, through a wall and hitting an unintended victim.

So, I'm thinking, bird shot would be effective at close range (in a house) but that it likely would not penetrate through walls and maintain lethal force coming out the other side.

If you think this is a viable alternative, what size shot would you use?
Northslope Nimrod is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 09:02 PM   #2
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
This is routinely mentioned here at TFL... Buckshot balls are not bullets and will not penetrate as many wall layers as an equal size bullet. Bird shot at near point blank will make a single entrance hole but the pellets will lose forward motion too early at closer distances than buckshot. Shooting the front of the torso is not the goal... it is to get in deep enuff to assuredly STOP the intruder.
I can't remember the name of the site that has all kinds of tests done with various bullet calibers and shot gun ammo.
But it says, and I agree, BIRDSHOT FOR BIRDS BUCKSHOT FOR BUCKS AND INTRUDERS... Or something like that...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 09:15 PM   #3
Dave McC
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
Posts: 8,812
Birdshot will work if close enough.

So will buckshot.

Close enough with birdshot is measured in feet.

Buckshot, yards.

We cannot predict the range in our next firefight.

I'll stick to 00....
Dave McC is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 09:25 PM   #4
Northslope Nimrod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2004
Posts: 419
Won't buckshot be deadly after passing though just one wall?
Northslope Nimrod is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 09:40 PM   #5
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Here is the link to the box o' truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
I am not sure of the one wall thing... I wouldn't shoot unless I had a target acquired and would attempt to make sure that any pass thru would not go into the kids' bedrooms.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 09:51 PM   #6
Swampghost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: Florida, east coast
Posts: 2,106
Way too many factors involved without some clarification.

Here, most of the homes are concrete block and some of the older ones have block interior walls, pretty safe until you get up to to around 30-06. In your typical stick built home the parameters change a lot.

A shotgun load is carrying at least a 1 oz. load of lead that hangs together for 25-50 ft., well over the average 'confrontation range' of 8-12 ft. in most home invasion situations. It's also unwieldly unless you have a large home.

My choice is a 13 rd. 9mm. with snakeshot as the 2 first rds. This easiliy allows for 'first stike' capability without penetrating walls. Sound, muzzle flash and pain/possible blindness should subdue most intruders. If not, 11 Black Talons and a back-up mag of Hydra-Shok's should solve the problem or buy me time to get to the Mini-14. Not that any one would really consider a full on assault on MY house, not a whole lot here unless you like women's clothes.
__________________
NRA Patron Member
Swampghost is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 10:00 PM   #7
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
at your typical bedroom distance of 12-15 feet, birdshot in the face/head or at a knee WILL stop the attack.....but in the heat of the moment, possibly awakened from a sound sleep, can you ensure you will hit those spots?? I can't....but then my first response gun is a S&W 357 with a 12 gauge as backup - and it has 00 in it.......YMMV
oneounceload is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 10:53 PM   #8
rem870hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2007
Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to.
Posts: 964
load the shotgun so the first round that goes into the chamber is high brass #4 or#6 bird, after that buckshot. i reloaded mine as to where i have high brass #6 fired first,then 1 #1 buck, 2 0 buck. i hope to never have to fire in my home.

even having said that at the other end of the hall is my daughters bedroom door. i would possibly aim low and take out legs as they tried coming down the hall. the intruder(s) legs that is,not my daughters or my sons legs.
__________________
BEAR Bows,Remington shotguns,Marlin rifles

Last edited by rem870hunter; November 19, 2008 at 06:08 AM.
rem870hunter is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:10 PM   #9
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,151
Turkey or goose loads are probably OK. But I think you'd be better to just use smaller buckshot to limit the penetration somewhat. Even the biggest birdshot *might* be a little too small to be reliable.
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:24 PM   #10
Guy B. Meredith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 29, 1999
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 1,578
00 and slugs are next to my Mossberg, but I live in a single family house with the next wall over 20 feet away.
__________________
Smart Gun + 1 Battery + 3 Wires = Dumb Gun

PC = Agenda driven groupthink filter on reality.

Apostrophes denote ownership or missing letters NOT plurals!
Guy B. Meredith is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:29 PM   #11
Gunfighter123
Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Location: IL./Wis state line
Posts: 97
I agree with Rem870hunter ---- I load my SG so that when I rack it , the first rd. into the chamber is a Hi-Power #4 birdshot , then 4 rds. of 00 buck ,and the last 2 rds. are slugs.

I;ve seen crime scene photos of what birdshot can do at very close range and those people sure didn't look like they enjoyed it

My house is a "stick built" and my neighbors are close , also as you can never tell where your loved ones might be at the time ----- I feel safer with a birdshot rd. up first.

FWIW --- not talking a "Trap Load " but a Hi-Power #4 field load.
Gunfighter123 is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:41 PM   #12
Cerick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2008
Location: 973, NJ
Posts: 331
I dont want to have to think in an emergency situation, "I hope this birdshot will stop the BG!" Never want to think that when I know 00 buck will.
Cerick is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:51 PM   #13
speakerguy79
Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2008
Posts: 80
What is the difference between high brass and low brass?
speakerguy79 is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:57 PM   #14
Cerick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2008
Location: 973, NJ
Posts: 331
From what I understand, High Brass can handle a bigger powder charge. High brass = High Power.
Cerick is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:59 PM   #15
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Little difference now days... But typically high brass refers to heavy powder charge rather than a soft hitting round just intended to chip clay birds...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 12:26 AM   #16
SumToy Custom Barrel
Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Location: GA
Posts: 63
You can go with 31/4-11/8-9's or 31/4 -11/4-9's and it will stop them. If you go with the smaller chokes it is like a rifle. We take a 24 inch Browning and at 50 feet with AA 23/4-11/8-9's and it will group shot with in a 1 inch spot.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Picture 004.jpg (240.5 KB, 85 views)
SumToy Custom Barrel is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 01:30 AM   #17
Jseime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,775
A 12 guage at close range is a 12 guage at close range period. That is a lot of brute force coming out of the end of that barrel, at close range a load of bird shot is going to cause a lot of damage to the person who is on the recieving end.

Buck will penetrate further into a person but how much penetration do you need to knock someone over and pacify them? The sound of you racking the action of a shotgun is going to send most guys out the nearest window and they wont be back. I wouldnt hesitate to use bird shot for HD.

The only shotgun shells I have at the moment are 3" magnum BB steel goose loads I would take those before birdshot but I am sure it would work.
__________________
I love the smell of fresh shotgun in the morning.
Jseime is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 02:21 AM   #18
Swampghost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: Florida, east coast
Posts: 2,106
I suggest that y'all take a trip outdoors and actually see what a 12 Ga. will do to 2 layers of 1/2" sheetrock spaced 3-1/2" apart @ 12 ft. The hole will be approx. 1" and go through both pieces and more even with #8.

No conjecture, just do it!

When I was a kid Dad loaded with dimes, that was really old time. IMHO a 12 ga. is not a home defense weapon if you have a modern home with cheesy walls.
__________________
NRA Patron Member
Swampghost is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 04:05 AM   #19
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
a co worker shot a home intruder with low brass #7 1/2 shot at 10', the intruder died after 3 days in the hospital. the shot removed his eyes, teeth, most of his lower jaw, and upper sternum.

it will definately put somebody down.

im loaded with 2-#6 2 3/4, 2-3mm flechettes in 3" mag, and a 1-1 1/8 oz slug in
3" mag.
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 08:42 AM   #20
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,731
Quote:
a co worker shot a home intruder with low brass #7 1/2 shot at 10', the intruder died after 3 days in the hospital. the shot removed his eyes, teeth, most of his lower jaw, and upper sternum.

it will definately put somebody down.
3 Days. It worked, true, but hitting someone in the head with a brick might also work.

If I am shooting in my house it is already a worst case scenario and I want something I know will punch right through his breastbone or skull to neutralize the valuable stuff deep inside and end the fight as quickly as possible. Birdshot may do that, other stuff will do it more reliably.
__________________
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
Musketeer is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 09:14 AM   #21
Dave McC
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
Posts: 8,812
Buckshot may be deadly after passing through one wall.

A perp will NOT be deadly after buckshot impacts his CNS.

Sporting shotguns get pointed, defensive tools get aimed.

At the max range inside Casa McC, my patterns will be less than 10" across.

I've trained to place that in Minute Of Perp.

So should you.

We can argue all day long about the advantages of the 870 over the 500 or vice versa, ad nauseam.

Darn near any Shotgun will work if we can shoot it and do so regularly.
Dave McC is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 09:22 AM   #22
Rmart30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Posts: 434
Quote:
I suggest that y'all take a trip outdoors and actually see what a 12 Ga. will do to 2 layers of 1/2" sheetrock spaced 3-1/2" apart @ 12 ft. The hole will be approx. 1" and go through both pieces and more even with #8.

No conjecture, just do it!
Ive got to agree on that one. You just dont know till you see a actual shot inside a stick built house of what kind of penetration it does.
Ive seen #6 birdshot go thru 2 separate walls..... (4 sheets of sheet rock) before a wooden dresser stopped it.
__________________
Jetguns.com When you want better service from a online gun seller and someplace that actually will talk to you on the phone unlike "Duds" gun shop, try them.

http://www.gunbanobama.com <---MUST READ
Rmart30 is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 09:27 AM   #23
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Okay I couldn't stand the suspense further!!! All this hub-bub about the sound of a shot gun racking a shell will send a man running...
So I took all the shells out of mine, Checked it 2 more times and YELLED... FREEZE MUTHA F'ER And racked the action... Didn't scare me one bit... But my little pitbull mix female ran out of the room and momma's pomeranian/chihuahua cross bailed under the bed hitting her head on the way! So I shut off the lights (might work in the dark) tried it again and same result (NOTHING) I didn't run or poop my pants. Just stood there...
So I got the bright idea to include a second party. Called momma in the room and after explaining the hollerin' and why her dog was cowering and shaking under the bed I told her to just Cycle the action real hard and fast... DERN IT!!! Nothing again! Had her do the loud yell first (this was easy as she was still mad I scared her dog) and last result same as the rest... NO NEGATIVE REACTION OF FEAR! Don't believe it will work on more than a couple chicken dogs!

So I loaded my number 3 Buck back in my 20 gauge, 5 in the tube, 1 in the pipe (I would use larger buck but cannot find any for the 20 at walmart) and went to sleep. No shoot to wound nor "SHOOT TO I HOPE TO STOP THE THREAT..." for me. Flat out 2 COM of sho-nuff stopper shots!
Ya'll load what and how you wish but do not load what others believe should work. I have whacked far too many rabbits against a tree trunk to stop the flopping when shot at fairly close range with #7 1/2 or even #6...
After you have shot and killed or wounded several thousand animals followed by field dress and butcher duty you will have a better grasp on shotgun results...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 08:20 PM   #24
T.A.Sharps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2007
Posts: 675
Wow, this subject is like beating a dead horse, burning it, then growing a plant in its ashes, then beating the hell out of that plant.
__________________
" ...Said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it..."
"Your reality, sir, is lies and bladerdash, and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"
T.A.Sharps is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 09:00 PM   #25
nemoaz
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2007
Location: Meechigan
Posts: 492
I've put my fist throw two layers of sheetrock. My elbow once too.

Maybe you should consider one of those guns that shoots those little plastic frisbees. Or the ones that shoot the arrow with a suction cup on the end. That's the only thing I can think of that MAY not penetrate sheetrock.

I've never read of a bird committing a burglary so I wouldn't use a shotsize designed to penetrate two inches into a tiny bird.
nemoaz is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15274 seconds with 8 queries