The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 16, 2008, 10:23 AM   #1
The Terminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2002
Location: Georgia, 35 miles Northwest of the armpit
Posts: 946
45/70 and big bears.

I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America. In Georgia, for sure. But, has anyone ever depended on one for grizzlies, or polar bears, or kodiak bears, as a defense or for hunting?

If in the situation, would you feel that you had enough gun? Is it really used that much in Alaska? How much of its name is marketing technique, and how much is function? I can only speculate, I'd like to hear from those in the know. - Best
__________________
The Terminator
John 3:16 (I hope to see You over there.)
The Terminator is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:28 AM   #2
MeekAndMild
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2001
Posts: 4,988
I gave this a lot of speculation myself when I was planning my spring (black) bear hunt last year. In the end I didn't take my Marlin 1895 because it's just too much gun for blackies, has problems with trajectory over 250 yards and I couldn't maintain acceptable offhand shooting accuracy due to its recoil profile. (It kicks like being hit by Fred Sanford's 2x4 that he keeps behind the door soaking in a can of motor oil.) From what I've read it might have difficulties in the immediate lethality department if a person was not able to hit a big animal in exactly the right spot. But it would be probably pretty good for close range defense if a person was fishing in bear country. All this, except my exerience trying to overcome the trajectory and recoil problems, is speculation...sorry.

You might want to send a PM to Wildalaska, one of the forum members who manages a gun store in Alaska and who sells a lot of guns to bear hunters. He asserts a number of years experience listening to gun complaints from real bear hunters, knowing which guns they complain the least about.
__________________
In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.
MeekAndMild is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 02:29 PM   #3
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,616
The .45-70 will kill big bears.
If you're concerned about the charging grizzly that seems to magically appear at twenty yards on this board, then you might consider a 12 gauge slug gun.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 04:17 PM   #4
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,401
The 45-70 would be fine for bears. You can dern near load them to 458 Win specs in the right rifle, but thats not really necessary.

Figure it out, the 338 win mag, its quite popular for big bears in Alaska, the 300 grn 45-70 in a marlin shoot it about as fast.

Dont know if I'd complain much about the trejectory, lots of buffalo were killed with them at 1000 yards or such.

I spent 22 years in alaska, in bear country I carried a 375 H&H, but the only bear I killed was with a 7mm Rem Mag.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old November 18, 2008, 12:13 AM   #5
roklok
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2008
Location: Fort Yukon, Alaska
Posts: 693
I would take a 45-70 with good loads before any 12 guage slug. I am not sure what the fascination with slugs for bear is, but I am not aware of any slug that will penetrate like a good rifle bullet. The Alaska Wildlife Troopers are given rifles (usually .338s but my buddy was given a .350 Rem Mag)for solving bear issues instead of using the department issued 870 12 guage. The Troopers use Brenneke slugs (one of the best penetrating slugs) in their 870s but have found that rifles work better.
roklok is offline  
Old November 18, 2008, 12:36 AM   #6
roklok
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2008
Location: Fort Yukon, Alaska
Posts: 693
To answer another question, the 45-70 is fairly popular up here. I see a lot of them and I have one but have not killed a grizzly with it, my favorite bear rifle is the .35 Whelen. I believe that most grizzlies killed up here are killed with calibers that a lot of out of state hunters would consider inadequate. The 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 are used extensively by many native and rural dwelling Alaskans to kill scores of bears. I personally know of more than one grizzly done in with .223, as well as 7.62 x 39. Standard calibers far outnumber magnums in Bush Alaska. I handload for my 45-70 and am getting 2100 FPS with 400 grain bullet. I am sure that when I get the chance to shoot a bear with this rifle it will do the job easily.
roklok is offline  
Old November 18, 2008, 01:02 AM   #7
zahnzieh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2006
Posts: 206
Love that caliber, recoil not that bad. Use it in my Pedersoli Sharps!
zahnzieh is offline  
Old November 18, 2008, 01:08 AM   #8
stevelyn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell
Posts: 2,618
All the bears I've killed has been with 12 ga Brenneke slugs and one with a .375.

The Brennekes have been complete pass throughs. I suspect that a 405+ gr from a .45-70 would whistle right through with less effort than the Brennekes.

The .45-70 and its Marlin based magnum derivitives are becoming more popular here.

WA can probably tell you how many .457 WWGs are going out the door.
__________________
Herman Cain '12

Squished bugs on a windshield is proof the slow/heavy bullet theory works.
stevelyn is offline  
Old January 25, 2009, 07:09 PM   #9
Shooting-Star
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1
big bears

Agree with Kraig above - the 338 win mag is used alot in Alaska but your 45-70 would be fine as well.
__________________
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
-- George Washington
Shooting Star, Big Bear
Shooting-Star is offline  
Old January 25, 2009, 07:26 PM   #10
wyobohunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2008
Location: Back in Wyoming
Posts: 1,125
Check this out...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...kodiak+island"

A Kodiak Island Bear/Deer hunt report. The weapon was a Marlin Guide Gun (45-70). I personally know several people who choose this same rifle as a packin around in bear country gun. Just make sure you roll your own or buy the Garrett/Cor-Bon/Buffalo Bore ammo, the other factory stuff is made for the old trap door rifles (weak).

Last edited by wyobohunter; January 25, 2009 at 07:33 PM.
wyobohunter is offline  
Old January 25, 2009, 07:35 PM   #11
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
WA can probably tell you how many .457 WWGs are going out the door.
For Alaskans...probably 1000 plus.

WildextremelypopularAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old January 25, 2009, 07:40 PM   #12
wyobohunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2008
Location: Back in Wyoming
Posts: 1,125
Oops

guess terminator has already seen that link, considering he replied to it
wyobohunter is offline  
Old January 25, 2009, 07:46 PM   #13
Swampghost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: Florida, east coast
Posts: 2,106
The 45-70 was the darling of the buffalo hunters, about the same size as a large bear. I've seen films where they just dropped where they were standing.

My experience is limited to an 1873 Trapdoor, the vernier sight goes to 1200 yds. I've shot it at 1K. Other than being able to take a nap between pulling the trigger and the bullet arriving on target it's pretty impressive.

An ounce is 437.5 gr., OTC cartridges are 405 or 500 gr. In general you're throwing an ounce of lead, that's got to hurt something. The black bear that I shot rolled over and played dead on the spot. I'll swear that the deer was lifted off of it's feet, never did that again.

More info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70
__________________
NRA Patron Member
Swampghost is offline  
Old January 25, 2009, 10:19 PM   #14
jhgreasemonkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2006
Location: 46.199ºN 122.188ºW by way of Tacoma Wa
Posts: 2,236
Quote:
I believe that most grizzlies killed up here are killed with calibers that a lot of out of state hunters would consider inadequate. The 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06 are used extensively by many native and rural dwelling Alaskans to kill scores of bears.
Thanks for clarifying that. I have heard that quite a few times from Alaskans. You ask anyone down here and they will tell you that you need at least a .577 t rex or .600 nitro express .
__________________
S&W 5906 9mm, FN commercial Mauser .270 win, Winchester 94 .30-30, Ruger Redhawk .44 mag, Ruger 10/22 .22lr, Ruger P-95 9mm, Savage 110 .30-06, Norinco SKS 7.62x39mm
I support our constitutional right to arm bears.
jhgreasemonkey is offline  
Old January 25, 2009, 10:35 PM   #15
stolivar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2004
Posts: 317
duh

most buffalo hunters used 44-77, .44-90, .50-70, and .50-90.

the 45-70 was not used much by professional hunters till after 1876. This brings us to another bit of legend--that buffalo hunters regularly shot beasts at ranges such as 1,000 yards. That's pure horse-pucky! Target shooters of the era did compete at such enormous ranges but not the bison hunters. They were businessmen, and flinging lead around the countryside wasted it and powder and primers, all of which had to be freighted to them from railheads in mule or ox-drawn wagons. In short, components were expensive. A little research reveals professional hide hunters made their "stands" at more reasonable ranges up to a few hundred yard.


steve
stolivar is offline  
Old January 26, 2009, 10:57 AM   #16
elkman06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2006
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 885
Quote:
This brings us to another bit of legend--that buffalo hunters regularly shot beasts at ranges such as 1,000 yards. That's pure horse-pucky!
+4....
To stay with the time frame, the only recorded and verified re:surveyed long shot of the day was on a Comanche Indian shot in the back at 1069yds by a buff hunter named Billy Dixon at the Battle of Adobe Walls. Definitely impressive w/ blackpowder, however A 7-8in thick man as opposed to a 30in buff chest w/ 1/2in of hide plus hair on him. Totally different situation.
Now before the naysayers remind me that this was also a Louis Lamour book, it was based in fact.
Also, the raid by the Indians was led by none other than my wife's g.g.g grandfather,,Quanah Parker...Last Comanch Indian chief. died in 1911
elkman06
__________________
"The right of the citizens to bear arms in the defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied." Wyoming Constitution Article 1, Sec24

"Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"
elkman06 is offline  
Old January 26, 2009, 11:21 AM   #17
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
Also, the raid by the Indians was led by none other than my wife's g.g.g grandfather,,Quanah Parker...Last Comanch Indian chief. died in 1911
Your my hero!

WildnativeamericanhistoryisoneofmyhobbiesAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old February 8, 2009, 09:48 PM   #18
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 1,931
So does this mean...

I can use my Original Contender with rifle stock & 45-70 barrel for Alaskan bear?

Getting a 30/30 barrel for sure for deer, maybe consider rechambering for the 30-40 Karg round uses heavier bullet 220gr.
jrothWA is offline  
Old February 9, 2009, 07:55 AM   #19
Kreyzhorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 11,472
Quote:
The 45-70 would be fine for bears. You can dern near load them to 458 Win specs in the right rifle, but thats not really necessary.
With a strong rifle (like a Ruger No. 1 for example) you should be able to handle a big bear with no issues. As mentioned, you can hot load it to right around a 458 Win and I doubt a bear will have much to say after that.
__________________
"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson
Kreyzhorse is offline  
Old February 9, 2009, 02:28 PM   #20
Big Bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America.
There are some exotics in Texas, like rhinos - right? I wonder how a 45/70 would do on a rhino?
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." - General George Patton Jr
Big Bill is offline  
Old February 13, 2009, 05:44 PM   #21
Jimbow1965
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2009
Posts: 30
Go to Garretts cartridge co.s web site and read of a guy who went to Africa and killed the big 6 with a Marlin 1895 in 45/70. most were killed with one shot with a safety second shot (usual in Africa from what I hear)
I believe, Elephant, hippo, buffalo,lion,......can't remember the rest.
If it will do a hippo I think with the right cartridge and hard cast bullet it will take the big bears. JMHO.
Jimbow.
Jimbow1965 is offline  
Old February 13, 2009, 05:56 PM   #22
Socrates
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 5,866
There is a difference between kill and stop. Since I know the .475 and .500 JRH, with 420-440 grain bullets will go through 5-6 feet of buffalo, and they work about the same as a .375 H&H, the 45-70, loaded to similar specs is going to do the same.

The problem arises when people try and say the 45-70 is a 'stopper'. It's not. There is a sizeable difference between a 400 and 500 grain bullets on game, just as there is a huge difference between 600 grains and 500 grains.

The main appeal of the 45-70 is the light guns you can carry it in. Likewise, the 458 Win Mag can be had in some lightweight rifles as well. Given the choice, I'd rather be using a soft point designed for dangerous game, weighing 500 grains, then a cast bullet.
Socrates is offline  
Old February 13, 2009, 07:31 PM   #23
obxned
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2007
Location: OBX, NC
Posts: 1,128
In any modern rifle that is as strong as a Marlin, you can load the 45/70 to power levels similar to the early British elephant cartridges. In a 6 1/2 lb rifle, recoil is strong, but when hunting, you won't notice it and you won't shoot that many times. It's the sighting in that will get you!
__________________
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.” Ronald Reagan

I'm a proud member of a North Carolina Committee of Safety
obxned is offline  
Old February 13, 2009, 07:52 PM   #24
Kreyzhorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 11,472
Quote:
There are some exotics in Texas, like rhinos - right? I wonder how a 45/70 would do on a rhino?
Garrett actually makes a round for elephant, hippo, rhino and cape called Exiter ammo. I'm guessing it will do the job if you do yours.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/500gr.asp

If the price wasn't so steep, I'd buy a box for the No. 1 just to see how it shot.
__________________
"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson
Kreyzhorse is offline  
Old February 14, 2009, 07:50 PM   #25
Jimbow1965
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2009
Posts: 30
From Garretts page on the 45/70

"Owing to this ability, the 45-70 provides a degree of lethality not generally found with other calibers, even ones producing much greater power. This is best evidenced by comparisons with the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum. As conventionally loaded with 500-grain expanding bullets, the 458 is notorious for its relatively shallow penetration. Consequently, when really heavy game is hunted, it is quite common for roundnose solids to be used. Unfortunately, roundnose solids tend to be slow to incapacitate big game. By comparison, the 45-70 can be loaded with blunt non-expanding hard-cast bullets that produce much deeper penetration than the 458 with expanding bullets, and cut a much larger wound channel than the 458 with roundnose solids. Also, the speed of incapacitation is much faster with a blunt non-expanding bullet than with any roundnose solid. Simply stated, proper hard-cast bullets effectively split the difference between under-penetrative expanding bullets and the slow to incapacitate roundnose solids.
The only significant limitation of the 45-70 is the 200-yard trajectory. However, within that range, the 45-70 can anchor the heaviest game on the planet with brutal authority. It can shoot lengthwise through the heaviest game animal including buffalo with large caliber blunt bullets, giving the shooter the advantage of not having to pass on bad-angle shots. If the bull of a lifetime is headed straight away from the shooter and the seat of the pants shot is all that is offered, the shooter can take the shot and know that he will reach the vitals. Generally, when proper hard-cast bullets are used, lengthwise shots result in exit wounds. If confronted by a heavy coastal grizzly hell-bent on annihilation, the 45-70 lever-gun will reliably shoot lengthwise through the bear, while providing the quickest action type available, the lever-action, should a rapid follow-up shot be required. This exceptional combination of action speed and impact effect is impossible to beat when the skirmish is close, and the game is dangerous. And as it turns out, the caliber is also capable of outstanding accuracy, on the order of MOA. If I could own only one big game rifle, it would certainly be a 45-70 lever-gun."(This was from Garretts website)
I agree with the above statement. Go to their website and read of the man who went to Africa. GREAT read. Jimbow1965
Jimbow1965 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13731 seconds with 7 queries