The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 15, 2008, 06:06 PM   #26
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Quote:
If I would of taken the time to read your response on post #6, my question would of already of been answered. Apologies.
Same here. My bad.
Creature is offline  
Old November 15, 2008, 06:13 PM   #27
Ricky B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2002
Posts: 251
Quote:
If a man does not know when to stop when he's looking down the barrel of a gun, there's nothing you can say that will stop him, other than pulling the trigger.
If he's drunk and doesn't know he's looking down the barrel of a gun, a loud and clear warning may deter him, and if it does not, the warning, particularly if heard by witnesses, may provide a more objective basis for determining that the shooter had a reasonable fear of great bodily injury.
Ricky B is offline  
Old November 15, 2008, 07:26 PM   #28
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
From Ricky B:
Quote:
According to a treatise that I looked at, the majority of states allow the defendant to stand his ground and not retreat.
May be.. Missouri is listed in wikipedia as having a stand your ground law, but I was referring to one that would apply outside. From Wikipedia: "States often differentiate between altercations occurring inside a home or business and altercations in public places; there may be a duty to retreat from an assailant in public when there is no duty to retreat from one's own property, or there may be no duty to retreat from anywhere the shooter may legally be."

Quote:
That said, it doesn't matter what the majority rule is. It only matters what the rule is in the state where the events take place.
True fact.

Quote:
As to the burden of proving an affirmative defense, I believe it wil vary by state. In some states, you are no doubt correct. All the defendant would have to do is produce sufficient evidence to raise a triable issue and the prosecution would have to negate it by the usual standard of "beyond a reasoanble doubt." In other states, the defendant might have to prove his defense by a preponderance of the evidence, meaning it's more likely than not true what he claims. Again, it doesn't matter what the majority rule is, only what applies in the state where the events take place.
We still need a lawyer.

An attorney friend of mine says the burden always falls to the prosecutor in a criminal case.

And to my lay understanding, the distinction between the reasonable doubt and preponderance of the evidence criteria has to do with the difference between a criminal trial and a civil suit.

Quote:
But even where the standard is to produce sufficient evidence to raise a triable issue, that may mean that the defendant is forced to take the stand to provide it, and many a defendant has been convicted as a result of taking the stand and being a terrible witness when cross-examined.
Or as a result of the evidence of being convincing.

Don't take this as argument. I think we agree on the principles here.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 15, 2008, 11:49 PM   #29
rgoers
Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 51
First; Thank you for sharing this! I'm sure a LOT of us would wonder what we'd do in similar circumstances.

I think the fact that you went home alive, and the Police let you do so, is testimony that you did the right thing.
rgoers is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:23 AM   #30
JohnH1963
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2008
Posts: 416
Yes, you did the wrong thing and here is why.

You dont know how the judge, the police, the jury or the district attorney will react to an incident like this. If you are arrested, count on your side of the story not being heard and everything taken out of context. Even if you believe you are in the right, everyone else will most likely believe you were in the wrong.

An arrest or conviction will be public information. An offense with a firearm usually carries a jail sentence of months maybe years. You might not be able to survive a background check (or even a Google check) of your name and finding employment in the future would be rough.

There are things you could have done in this situation. Once you saw these guys, you could have distanced yourself from these individuals and not looked in their direction. Was there anything you were doing to instigate this fight? Even drunkards usually need a reason to fight and chances are you gave them one.

Lets say the drunkards did manage to lay a few fists on you. What would have been the result? A struggle, probably a few bruises and maybe a broken bone or two. That is a far better result then being placed in jail and becoming a marked man.

In the future, when you see trouble like this, then distance yourself. If you are in a bar, then move closer to the bouncers who might assist you in such a situation. Do not instigate the fight with stares or looks.

If you display your weapon, then you will most likely be arrested and the police will not be understanding. You will most likely spend the night in jail and go up in front of a judge who has a lesser understanding then the police.

When you point that weapon at someone then think of the result. Months in jail and possibly years. Ask yourself each time would the end result be worth it?

Also, dont pay attention to the laws. The law only matters as much as the judge cares to take it. I have been in and out of court on certain civil matters many times. I thought the law was clear in many cases, but it isnt clear until the judge says its clear. The judge may disagree with you on your interpretation. I have seen all kinds of judges. One judge was from Vietnam with a bad accent...another judge seemed to be a much older man who moved slow and delayed in approach...yet another was a firey younger individual...you never know who you going to get on that stand and how they will react to your logic.

I know retreating away may not be the prideful thing to do, but its better then spending time in the jail or in front of a judge or having your name paraded around online like you are a criminal. Just distance yourself next time.

Last edited by JohnH1963; November 16, 2008 at 11:29 AM.
JohnH1963 is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:31 AM   #31
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Good point about drunks usually needing a reason.

Quote:
I personally think I really slipped up here and I replied to their drunken rant and I simply said "excuse me"
You say that you replied to their shouts and "simply said 'excuse me'".

I think perhaps we should explore this a bit further by asking...and be honest: Did you say 'excuse me' in a deferential way...as in "pardon my intrusion.". Or did you ask this in a challenging way...as in "what the hell did you say to me?".

I ask because you say that you really slipped up...making me think you asked it in a challenging way.
Creature is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:47 AM   #32
Les Auten
Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2004
Location: Cass City MI
Posts: 87
JohnH1963
Quote:
Once you saw these guys, you could have distanced yourself from these individuals and not looked in their direction.
Quote:
In the future, when you see trouble like this, then distance yourself. If you are in a bar, then move closer to the bouncers who might assist you in such a situation.
From the opening post
Quote:
I went to a local bar to meet up with a few friends inside. As I was stepping outside of my car
It sounds as if he was 1/2 in 1/2 out of his car .One cant retreat fast when 2 people are closing in fast!

Quote:
Lets say the drunkards did manage to lay a few fists on you. What would have been the result?A struggle, probably a few bruises and maybe a broken bone or two.
1 punch kills do occur
this happened locally

New Details: Tuscola County Teen Death

Written By: Sam Merrill

Edited By: Sam Licavoli II

Some witnesses say eighteen year-old Andrew Haas provoked the Cass City man who killed him with one punch at a party last fall, according to prosecutors. "Some blame Haas as being the instigator," said Mark E. Reene, Tuscola County 's prosecutor, who wants John P. Bulla sent to jail, not prison.

Bulla, twenty, who lives near Cass City, pleaded no contest Monday February 28th, to attempted involuntary manslaughter in connection with the Nov. 13, 2004, death of Haas, a Cass City High School senior who lived in Ubly.

A plea of no contest is not an admission of guilt, but is treated as such at sentencing. Reene said an "exhaustive investigation" by Tuscola County Sheriff's Department detectives Glenn Skrent and Patrick Woidan involved interviews with numerous witnesses. But the opinion of forensic pathologist Dr. Kanu Virani proved key to the case, Reene said. The punch that struck Haas in the head was not really characterized by Dr. Virani even as a violent blow, according to Reene. "It was simply the angle the blow came from, and the victim's reaction."

Reene said Virani's opinion is that Haas "was not braced for the blow" when he was punched at an outdoor party in Tuscola County 's Elmwood Township . "It was simply the reflex of the head and neck, due to the blow" that caused Haas' fatal injuries, Reene said. The prosecutor said Bulla didn't intend to kill Haas, though witnesses told police the two men had argued at the party before

"That night, the two went back and forth, verbally," Reene said. "Whenever you have a situation like this, you'll have witnesses with various alliances on the side of the victim and on the side of the defendant, and you have to sort through the bias to find out the truth." Bulla had been charged with involuntary manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of fifteen years in prison. But Reene allowed Bulla to plead no contest to the lesser charge, which carries a maximum sentence of fi

Reene plans to ask Tuscola County Circuit Judge Patrick R. Joslyn to sentence Bulla to no more than one year in jail, combined with a term of probation. The court hasn't set a sentencing date yet.


Do you think 2 drunks in a rowdy mood are going to stop after a few punches.
Les Auten is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:50 AM   #33
Ricky B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2002
Posts: 251
Quote:
As I was stepping outside of my car two men in their early 30's walked by shouting and cursing at me.
SD: When the two men charged you, could you have gotten back into your car and locked the door before they reached you?
Ricky B is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 12:59 PM   #34
KLRANGL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
Quote:
Ok. In that case, dump your friends who drink or go into bars. Life is too short.
you cant argue with someone who talks like that... you make it sound like people who drink are bad... Just... wow...

JohnH1963
I like how you gave this whole fire and brimstone speech about the possibilities of an event that has already happened and didnt turn out the way you predicted...

While I understand your concern, I think you are putting too much fear into people, making them second guess themselves even if they are justified in pulling a weapon...
I think the OP was justified in pulling his weapon, and apparently the cops did as well...
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book
KLRANGL is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 01:07 PM   #35
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
This may shed some light on things:

http://floor9.com/central-pa/pas-laws-on-self-defense

Relevant excerpts, emphasis added:

Quote:
imagine you’re walking down Third Street and a voice behind you says “I’m gonna kill you, mother$#@”. A strict interpretation of the Pennsylvania code states that you have an obligation to run away — if it’s safe to do so — before resorting to deadly force. And I agree; deadly force should unconditionally only be used as a last resort. But being the imperfect human beings that we are, we all make mistakes. What if that voice sounds familiar — what if you think it’s a friend playing a joke, and you turn around? What if the attacker takes a swing at you and misses? A jury will have to decide whether saying “I’m going to kill you” followed by a physical attack constitutes an imminent threat of “death (or) serious bodily injury” (PA 18§505).
And the law itself:

http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/c...5.005.000.html

Relevant excerpts from 18-505 (emphasis added):
Quote:
The use of deadly force is not justifiable under
this section
unless the actor believes that such force is
necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily
injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force
or threat; nor is it justifiable if:
(i) the actor, with the intent of causing death or
serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against
himself in the same encounter;
or
(ii) the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity
of using such force with complete safety by retreating
or
by surrendering possession of a thing to a person
asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a
demand that he abstain from any action which he has no
duty to take,...
The law goes on to say that you have no obligation to retreat if you are within your dwelling or place of business. A later section limits the duty to retreat in cases where the safety of a third person would not be ensured.

I hope this proves helpful.

Do not take this as legal advice.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 01:43 PM   #36
JohnH1963
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2008
Posts: 416
I apologize if I might have sounded like an alarmist in my reply, however, I feel its a healthy assumption that when you draw your weapon then you have to face the possibility of jail time no matter how the event went down. There is also a possibility that someone watching you pull your weapon might believe that you are the person causing trouble and then draw a weapon (and fire) upon yourself.

Therefore, you have to weigh all of the other available options before drawing a weapon in public.

Could you have gotten back into the car? Could you have retreated around the car? Were there any other options?
JohnH1963 is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 02:29 PM   #37
badlander
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: So. Fla
Posts: 329
About 1 yr. ago. A man in west palm Bch. Fl. shot two gang members he had trouble with earlier in the day. he was found not guilty of all charges.
Unfourtunatly he spent months in jail. While in jail more gang members burned down his house, the county had his dogs put down, and of course his job was gone.
Weather right or wrong you were lucky
badlander is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 02:30 PM   #38
KLRANGL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
John, well we agree on that for sure...

I just think its unfair to say he did the wrong thing

There is no reason to carry a weapon for self defense if you are so worried about legal ramifications... if you believe your life is in danger, pull... If you are afraid your lawful actions will get you into legal trouble, dont carry...
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book
KLRANGL is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 04:03 PM   #39
NWPilgrim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,153
KLRANGL makes a good point.

A corollary might be: If you are worried about the legal ramifications, then you probably are not feeling threatened enough to be pulling a gun. Or, if you feel threatened enough to pull you gun in self defense, then the legal ramifications are moot.

That is the basic choice we all make if we choose to carry. Are we willing to risk legal complications or consequences in order to protect life and limb? It's a dangerous world out there in more than just the physical sense. Personally, I would choose to protect myself and my family from grievous harm regardless of the legal shenanigans.
NWPilgrim is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 04:54 PM   #40
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Quote:
A corollary might be: If you are worried about the legal ramifications, then you probably are not feeling threatened enough to be pulling a gun. Or, if you feel threatened enough to pull you gun in self defense, then the legal ramifications are moot.
Very well said.
Creature is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 05:42 PM   #41
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
From KLRANGEL: I
Quote:
just think its unfair to say he did the wrong thing
Agree. None of us know all of the facts.

Quote:
There is no reason to carry a weapon for self defense if you are so worried about legal ramifications...
Can't agree. One carries the weapon in case it becomes necessary to use it to protect against death or serious bodily harm. But he had better not go outside with it without knowing when he can use it and when he cannot without becoming a felon.

Quote:
if you believe your life is in danger, pull...
That's just about it, realizing that your belief must be reasonable, and in the locale in question and most others you were not able to retreat, and that the facts will support your ability to successfully articulate why both conditions existed.

From NWPilgrim:
Quote:
Or, if you feel threatened enough to pull you gun in self defense, then the legal ramifications are moot.
Almost. But what you feel doesn't enter into the equation. It is your reasonable belief and the underlying facts that count. See this:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=41


Quote:
That is the basic choice we all make if we choose to carry. Are we willing to risk legal complications or consequences in order to protect life and limb?
That's it in a nutshell. Has been since Englishmen carried the dirk and dagger undr English Common Law.

Quote:
Personally, I would choose to protect myself and my family from grievous harm regardless of the legal shenanigans.
Imminent danger, reasonable belief, no other alternative--yep. But without those conditions, I wouldn't characterize what you will be up against as "legal shenanigans."

You might find this worth bookmarking and studying.

http://www.useofforce.us/

Do not take any of this as legal advice. And if you have any questions about whn you may or may not fire, or even draw, I suggest that consulting a qualified attorney would be a wise investment.

Last edited by OldMarksman; November 16, 2008 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Add link to another post; spelling
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 06:44 PM   #42
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Quote:
Almost. But what you feel doesn't enter into the equation. It is your reasonable belief and the underlying facts that count.
Come again? Feeling threatened with imminent physical harm is pretty much the same thing as reasonable belief. A jury will judge you on how you felt at critical moment in time, not how you felt an hour...or a year...later
Creature is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 07:01 PM   #43
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Creature, did you read the attorney's explanation in the link I provided?

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=41

"Feeling" is subjective. The case will turn on what you knew at the time and why you concluded what you did from what you knew--an objective standard.

You may feel afraid, but you must believe that you are in imminent danger and have no alternative to the use of deadly force, and that belief must be judged reasonable by the jury after the fact, based on what you knew at the time.

Does this help?
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 07:08 AM   #44
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 867
From post #33

Quote:
You say that you replied to their shouts and "simply said 'excuse me'".

I think perhaps we should explore this a bit further by asking...and be honest: Did you say 'excuse me' in a deferential way...as in "pardon my intrusion.". Or did you ask this in a challenging way...as in "what the hell did you say to me?".

I ask because you say that you really slipped up...making me think you asked it in a challenging way.
A few months ago, weather hot! came back to my vehicle after visiting the Verizon outlet, and had a devil of a job getting in the Jeep, I had backed in to the spot.

A very large young Lady, with three small children had parked almost across the next parking spot, in an old car.

I said "Nice bit of parking!" And she replied "Excuse me?" aggressive, she was in I am looking for an argument mode, I was in "Stupid?" Without any more comment I left. In thinking back she was obviously waiting for someone (or more than one) and if the party or parties had been attempting to resolve a billing query, might not have been in a good mood either, I was armed! Keeping top lip firmly pressed against the bottom one could be a plus most times.
Brit is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 11:44 AM   #45
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
Also, dont pay attention to the laws...
Now there's some good advice.



Perhaps, don't count on your interpretation of the law to be the same as the judge/prosecutor?
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 04:14 PM   #46
Creature
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
Quote:
You may feel afraid, but you must believe that you are in imminent danger and have no alternative to the use of deadly force, and that belief must be judged reasonable by the jury after the fact, based on what you knew at the time.

Does this help?
So, fearing for one's life doesn't cut the mustard? Funny thing is, I am pretty sure I wouldn't fear for my life if I wasn't in imminent danger. How can I be fearful of being maimed or killed and not believe my life is in imminent danger?
Creature is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 04:24 PM   #47
JohnH1963
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2008
Posts: 416
There are times I would draw the pistol even if I knew I were going to get arrested for doing so. Those times would be few and far between, however, and be very exceptional at that. I would much rather spend a few months in jail if I was certain that the other alternative would be myself or another suffering a devastating injury.

Your reasons for drawing either must be pretty good or pretty twisted if you dont mind spending some time in jail. However, in such quick situations, you usually dont have the time to construct a "pretty good" decision and sometimes it ends up "pretty twisted".

Therefore, situational avoidance should be practiced far more then actually using the pistol.

Back to the original scenario, why didnt you look before you got out of the car? Did these guys suddenly appear? If you saw these drunk guys before you got out of the car, why didnt you simply wait several minutes inside the safety of the vehicle until they left? These are things to consider.

When I go to a bar or a anyplace actually, I always look carefully around me before I get out of the car. If there is someone who seems a bit strange or hostile, then I stay inside the vehicle until they have put some distance between them and myself. Although the fault of aggression is on the person for attacking you, the right thing to do is make every attempt you can to avoid such encounters by being especially aware of your surroundings.
JohnH1963 is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 07:31 PM   #48
vytoland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 614
I know that my life was being put in immediate danger

BULL .. there was no danger..they called you some names...sticks & stones ..big deal......you messed up dude.. all you had to do is just walk on by. you could have easily killed somebody. think about it
vytoland is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 07:55 PM   #49
Swampghost
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: Florida, east coast
Posts: 2,106
You could also just shoot the parking lot as I did many years ago. The sound and flash will stop most AND attract a lot of attention from others giving you witnesses in case you have to follow through with an actual shooting.

My belief is that intent to defend ones self tells the BG's a lot AND your weapon is already out and good to go.
__________________
NRA Patron Member
Swampghost is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 08:33 PM   #50
KLRANGL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
Quote:
BULL .. there was no danger..they called you some names...sticks & stones ..big deal......you messed up dude.. all you had to do is just walk on by. you could have easily killed somebody. think about it
Thats called wishful thinking. Having two guys walking towards you with malicious intent after previously shown belligerent tendencies does not mean you can walk right past them... Im guessing you would have gotten seriously beat or killed if it had been you that night...

Quote:
.........for when the police arrest you for illegally discharging a firearm and when you get sued because some passerby was wounded by the ricochet. Very bad idea.
+1.5
This is not the navy. We cant do warning shots across the bow... Bullets belong either through paper or in BG bodies
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book
KLRANGL is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15345 seconds with 7 queries