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November 15, 2008, 06:06 PM | #26 | |
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November 15, 2008, 06:13 PM | #27 | |
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November 15, 2008, 07:26 PM | #28 | ||||
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From Ricky B:
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An attorney friend of mine says the burden always falls to the prosecutor in a criminal case. And to my lay understanding, the distinction between the reasonable doubt and preponderance of the evidence criteria has to do with the difference between a criminal trial and a civil suit. Quote:
Don't take this as argument. I think we agree on the principles here. |
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November 15, 2008, 11:49 PM | #29 |
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First; Thank you for sharing this! I'm sure a LOT of us would wonder what we'd do in similar circumstances.
I think the fact that you went home alive, and the Police let you do so, is testimony that you did the right thing. |
November 16, 2008, 11:23 AM | #30 |
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Yes, you did the wrong thing and here is why.
You dont know how the judge, the police, the jury or the district attorney will react to an incident like this. If you are arrested, count on your side of the story not being heard and everything taken out of context. Even if you believe you are in the right, everyone else will most likely believe you were in the wrong. An arrest or conviction will be public information. An offense with a firearm usually carries a jail sentence of months maybe years. You might not be able to survive a background check (or even a Google check) of your name and finding employment in the future would be rough. There are things you could have done in this situation. Once you saw these guys, you could have distanced yourself from these individuals and not looked in their direction. Was there anything you were doing to instigate this fight? Even drunkards usually need a reason to fight and chances are you gave them one. Lets say the drunkards did manage to lay a few fists on you. What would have been the result? A struggle, probably a few bruises and maybe a broken bone or two. That is a far better result then being placed in jail and becoming a marked man. In the future, when you see trouble like this, then distance yourself. If you are in a bar, then move closer to the bouncers who might assist you in such a situation. Do not instigate the fight with stares or looks. If you display your weapon, then you will most likely be arrested and the police will not be understanding. You will most likely spend the night in jail and go up in front of a judge who has a lesser understanding then the police. When you point that weapon at someone then think of the result. Months in jail and possibly years. Ask yourself each time would the end result be worth it? Also, dont pay attention to the laws. The law only matters as much as the judge cares to take it. I have been in and out of court on certain civil matters many times. I thought the law was clear in many cases, but it isnt clear until the judge says its clear. The judge may disagree with you on your interpretation. I have seen all kinds of judges. One judge was from Vietnam with a bad accent...another judge seemed to be a much older man who moved slow and delayed in approach...yet another was a firey younger individual...you never know who you going to get on that stand and how they will react to your logic. I know retreating away may not be the prideful thing to do, but its better then spending time in the jail or in front of a judge or having your name paraded around online like you are a criminal. Just distance yourself next time. Last edited by JohnH1963; November 16, 2008 at 11:29 AM. |
November 16, 2008, 11:31 AM | #31 | |
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Good point about drunks usually needing a reason.
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I think perhaps we should explore this a bit further by asking...and be honest: Did you say 'excuse me' in a deferential way...as in "pardon my intrusion.". Or did you ask this in a challenging way...as in "what the hell did you say to me?". I ask because you say that you really slipped up...making me think you asked it in a challenging way. |
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November 16, 2008, 11:47 AM | #32 | ||||
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JohnH1963
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this happened locally New Details: Tuscola County Teen Death Written By: Sam Merrill Edited By: Sam Licavoli II Some witnesses say eighteen year-old Andrew Haas provoked the Cass City man who killed him with one punch at a party last fall, according to prosecutors. "Some blame Haas as being the instigator," said Mark E. Reene, Tuscola County 's prosecutor, who wants John P. Bulla sent to jail, not prison. Bulla, twenty, who lives near Cass City, pleaded no contest Monday February 28th, to attempted involuntary manslaughter in connection with the Nov. 13, 2004, death of Haas, a Cass City High School senior who lived in Ubly. A plea of no contest is not an admission of guilt, but is treated as such at sentencing. Reene said an "exhaustive investigation" by Tuscola County Sheriff's Department detectives Glenn Skrent and Patrick Woidan involved interviews with numerous witnesses. But the opinion of forensic pathologist Dr. Kanu Virani proved key to the case, Reene said. The punch that struck Haas in the head was not really characterized by Dr. Virani even as a violent blow, according to Reene. "It was simply the angle the blow came from, and the victim's reaction." Reene said Virani's opinion is that Haas "was not braced for the blow" when he was punched at an outdoor party in Tuscola County 's Elmwood Township . "It was simply the reflex of the head and neck, due to the blow" that caused Haas' fatal injuries, Reene said. The prosecutor said Bulla didn't intend to kill Haas, though witnesses told police the two men had argued at the party before "That night, the two went back and forth, verbally," Reene said. "Whenever you have a situation like this, you'll have witnesses with various alliances on the side of the victim and on the side of the defendant, and you have to sort through the bias to find out the truth." Bulla had been charged with involuntary manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of fifteen years in prison. But Reene allowed Bulla to plead no contest to the lesser charge, which carries a maximum sentence of fi Reene plans to ask Tuscola County Circuit Judge Patrick R. Joslyn to sentence Bulla to no more than one year in jail, combined with a term of probation. The court hasn't set a sentencing date yet. Do you think 2 drunks in a rowdy mood are going to stop after a few punches. |
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November 16, 2008, 11:50 AM | #33 | |
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November 16, 2008, 12:59 PM | #34 | |
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JohnH1963 I like how you gave this whole fire and brimstone speech about the possibilities of an event that has already happened and didnt turn out the way you predicted... While I understand your concern, I think you are putting too much fear into people, making them second guess themselves even if they are justified in pulling a weapon... I think the OP was justified in pulling his weapon, and apparently the cops did as well...
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November 16, 2008, 01:07 PM | #35 | ||
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This may shed some light on things:
http://floor9.com/central-pa/pas-laws-on-self-defense Relevant excerpts, emphasis added: Quote:
http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/c...5.005.000.html Relevant excerpts from 18-505 (emphasis added): Quote:
I hope this proves helpful. Do not take this as legal advice. |
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November 16, 2008, 01:43 PM | #36 |
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I apologize if I might have sounded like an alarmist in my reply, however, I feel its a healthy assumption that when you draw your weapon then you have to face the possibility of jail time no matter how the event went down. There is also a possibility that someone watching you pull your weapon might believe that you are the person causing trouble and then draw a weapon (and fire) upon yourself.
Therefore, you have to weigh all of the other available options before drawing a weapon in public. Could you have gotten back into the car? Could you have retreated around the car? Were there any other options? |
November 16, 2008, 02:29 PM | #37 |
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About 1 yr. ago. A man in west palm Bch. Fl. shot two gang members he had trouble with earlier in the day. he was found not guilty of all charges.
Unfourtunatly he spent months in jail. While in jail more gang members burned down his house, the county had his dogs put down, and of course his job was gone. Weather right or wrong you were lucky |
November 16, 2008, 02:30 PM | #38 |
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John, well we agree on that for sure...
I just think its unfair to say he did the wrong thing There is no reason to carry a weapon for self defense if you are so worried about legal ramifications... if you believe your life is in danger, pull... If you are afraid your lawful actions will get you into legal trouble, dont carry...
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November 16, 2008, 04:03 PM | #39 |
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KLRANGL makes a good point.
A corollary might be: If you are worried about the legal ramifications, then you probably are not feeling threatened enough to be pulling a gun. Or, if you feel threatened enough to pull you gun in self defense, then the legal ramifications are moot. That is the basic choice we all make if we choose to carry. Are we willing to risk legal complications or consequences in order to protect life and limb? It's a dangerous world out there in more than just the physical sense. Personally, I would choose to protect myself and my family from grievous harm regardless of the legal shenanigans. |
November 16, 2008, 04:54 PM | #40 | |
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November 16, 2008, 05:42 PM | #41 | ||||||
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From KLRANGEL: I
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From NWPilgrim: Quote:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=41 Quote:
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You might find this worth bookmarking and studying. http://www.useofforce.us/ Do not take any of this as legal advice. And if you have any questions about whn you may or may not fire, or even draw, I suggest that consulting a qualified attorney would be a wise investment. Last edited by OldMarksman; November 16, 2008 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Add link to another post; spelling |
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November 16, 2008, 06:44 PM | #42 | |
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November 16, 2008, 07:01 PM | #43 |
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Creature, did you read the attorney's explanation in the link I provided?
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=41 "Feeling" is subjective. The case will turn on what you knew at the time and why you concluded what you did from what you knew--an objective standard. You may feel afraid, but you must believe that you are in imminent danger and have no alternative to the use of deadly force, and that belief must be judged reasonable by the jury after the fact, based on what you knew at the time. Does this help? |
November 17, 2008, 07:08 AM | #44 | |
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From post #33
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A very large young Lady, with three small children had parked almost across the next parking spot, in an old car. I said "Nice bit of parking!" And she replied "Excuse me?" aggressive, she was in I am looking for an argument mode, I was in "Stupid?" Without any more comment I left. In thinking back she was obviously waiting for someone (or more than one) and if the party or parties had been attempting to resolve a billing query, might not have been in a good mood either, I was armed! Keeping top lip firmly pressed against the bottom one could be a plus most times. |
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November 17, 2008, 11:44 AM | #45 | |
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Perhaps, don't count on your interpretation of the law to be the same as the judge/prosecutor?
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November 17, 2008, 04:14 PM | #46 | |
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November 17, 2008, 04:24 PM | #47 |
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There are times I would draw the pistol even if I knew I were going to get arrested for doing so. Those times would be few and far between, however, and be very exceptional at that. I would much rather spend a few months in jail if I was certain that the other alternative would be myself or another suffering a devastating injury.
Your reasons for drawing either must be pretty good or pretty twisted if you dont mind spending some time in jail. However, in such quick situations, you usually dont have the time to construct a "pretty good" decision and sometimes it ends up "pretty twisted". Therefore, situational avoidance should be practiced far more then actually using the pistol. Back to the original scenario, why didnt you look before you got out of the car? Did these guys suddenly appear? If you saw these drunk guys before you got out of the car, why didnt you simply wait several minutes inside the safety of the vehicle until they left? These are things to consider. When I go to a bar or a anyplace actually, I always look carefully around me before I get out of the car. If there is someone who seems a bit strange or hostile, then I stay inside the vehicle until they have put some distance between them and myself. Although the fault of aggression is on the person for attacking you, the right thing to do is make every attempt you can to avoid such encounters by being especially aware of your surroundings. |
November 17, 2008, 07:31 PM | #48 |
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I know that my life was being put in immediate danger
BULL .. there was no danger..they called you some names...sticks & stones ..big deal......you messed up dude.. all you had to do is just walk on by. you could have easily killed somebody. think about it
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November 17, 2008, 07:55 PM | #49 |
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You could also just shoot the parking lot as I did many years ago. The sound and flash will stop most AND attract a lot of attention from others giving you witnesses in case you have to follow through with an actual shooting.
My belief is that intent to defend ones self tells the BG's a lot AND your weapon is already out and good to go.
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November 17, 2008, 08:33 PM | #50 | ||
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This is not the navy. We cant do warning shots across the bow... Bullets belong either through paper or in BG bodies
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