The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 14, 2008, 04:23 PM   #26
rburch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Blacksburg VA
Posts: 687
I'm in Blacksburg Virginia, and have a carry permit.

Legally I could carry on any college campus in Virginia except:
Virginia Commonwealth University. (KLRANGL beat me to this point)

Here are the Virginia laws that could apply to campuses.

Quote:
· Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation
Only valid for private schools that post signs forbidding firearms, notice the last line. trespassing, not firearms violation.
Quote:
· Virginia Commonwealth University (8VAC901050). Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation
VCU is listed by name in the state law, but again, look at the last line. (KLRANGL beat me to this point)

Quote:
· School property/school functions (School busses are school property) unless gun is unloaded, in an enclosed container (but NOT in the glove box or console) and in the vehicle. A car's trunk is considered an enclosed container. However, a concealed handgun permit holder can have a
loaded, concealed handgun in the vehicle while in the school parking lot, traffic circle, etc. The concealed handgun and the permit holder must stay in the vehicle. Firearms are not banned from property open to the public where a school function is being held unless that property is being used exclusively for the school function. Violation of this statute is a felony
This is the big one, but it only applies to K-12 schools, not college.


So, in virginia, since I'm not a student I could carry on campus and all the school could do is ask me to leave.

Do I do so? After the shooting at Tech even though I'm well within the law I don't even consider it. It's just not worth the hassle of trying to explain it to the Campus Police if it's noticed when I only go into tech 3-4 times a year.

I'm on the campus of Radford University more often (my girlfriend goes there, and I practice with their Fencing Team) but again, I'm not willing to fight the administration over it.

We've had a 3 month long fight with them about us having the fencing gear on campus, and those aren't even a real weapons. Members of their ROTC were punished for having Nerf Guns in their dorms last month too.

Anyway, I normally leave my pistol locked in the car if I have to go onto a campus for something.
__________________
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Last edited by rburch; November 14, 2008 at 04:26 PM. Reason: KLRANGL beat me to the post.
rburch is offline  
Old November 14, 2008, 05:45 PM   #27
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
How do you figure that david? No law in VA that says I cant carry on a university
That is why I said "potentially." You might note the OP is not in VA. Thus the importance of checking what your local laws are. For example, in my sitation I could lose my job, but there could be no criminal charges against me at all. The guy right next to me, however, could face up to five years at hard labor.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old November 14, 2008, 06:57 PM   #28
ZeSpectre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 3,276
The carry on campus issue is generating a lot of noise where I work right now.

Shooting Revives Concealed Carry Controversy
November 13, 2008 • By Katie Thisdell, The Breeze

I'll post the article but you folks should go to the site and see the comments (one guy went totally nutzo)

Quote:
Shooting Revives Concealed Carry Controversy

November 13, 2008 • By Katie Thisdell, The Breeze

After last weekend’s off-campus shooting, students are reacting to the presence of guns in the college community. While some people believe guns are a threat, others support their protective role.

Senior Danny Dales is the campus leader for the unofficial chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. The SCCC advocates legal adults over the age of 21 with permits to carry concealed handguns on campuses for personal protection from all types of violent crime. With 70 students interested in the group, he hopes it will be a recognized organization in the spring.

“The overall reaction of our organization is this is just another example of why we feel we deserve the right to personal protection,” Dales, a biology major, said in response to the shooting.

In Hunters Ridge early Sunday morning, only the perpetrators were known to have shot a gun. However, SCCC believes the incident may have been different if more weapons had been used. Concealed weapons are allowed in off-campus areas, but the topic is touchy.

“Wouldn’t the violence have just been escalated?” said senior Loretta Vitt, a psychology major. “I don’t see how concealed weapons or more weapons could have helped this situation, but only made it far worse. More people could have been caught in the crossfire for sure.”

Dales, on the other hand, believes that concealed weapons are the key to guaranteeing safety.

“One cannot say whether or not an armed citizen could have prevented this incident,” Dales said. “But a citizen is severely disadvantaged when their right to personal protection is revoked, as it is on most public universities across the country.”

Dales believes more students might express interest in the SCCC after this incident.

“If this type of violence were to migrate onto the campus of JMU, we would like to see those students who legally acquire a permit to exercise their right for personal protection,” Dales said.

In Rockingham County, 728 people applied for concealed weapons permits between January and October, according to the Office of the Clerk of Court. They have seen the number of applications rise in recent months compared to past years.

There are no records for how many students specifically are registered, though, because they apply based on their permanent residence.

Senior Barbie Spitz, a sociology major, hopes that concealed weapons are never permitted on campus. She described JMU as a safe community where students go to classes to learn. She said guns could make students uneasy and disrupt the environment.

“If you don’t know who is carrying a gun around, then you don’t know if it’s that person who gave you a funny look walking down the Village hill,” Spitz said. “That’s really scary. I think it would put a lot of people on edge.”

Though the SCCC supports concealed weapons as a defense to an attack, many students believe that they would not be limited to such a situation.

Vitt doesn’t want to take these risks. She said she doesn’t believe in guns. She cited more deaths in homes from accidental shootings than from situations of domestic violence or self-defense.

“Limiting the use of guns in everyday environments is just common sense,” Vitt said.

Spitz said: “Guns don’t keep the safety. They kill people.”

Contact Katie Thisdell at thisdeke@jmu.edu
ZeSpectre is offline  
Old November 14, 2008, 07:04 PM   #29
MrNiceGuy
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2008
Posts: 919
Quote:
So the moral of your story is I should just carry on campus anyways and not get caught. However, I think my penalty would be slightly more sever than yours.
Better judged by 12 than carried by six



have you looked into things like spray?
MrNiceGuy is offline  
Old November 14, 2008, 09:43 PM   #30
maxkimber
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeSpectre
I'll post the article but you folks should go to the site and see the comments (one guy went totally nutzo)
I actually thought the comments were presently rather well.
__________________
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast...
maxkimber is offline  
Old November 15, 2008, 12:41 AM   #31
cchardwick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 574
Has anyone noticed that the gun laws are cyclical? They want to reduce gun violence in schools and public places like the post office so they take away all the guns from the 'good guys' leaving guns only in the hands of the 'bad guys'. And then in these 'gun free zones' we get horrific massacres and everyone wonders why. It makes sense that the bad guys are going to go where there are no guns because they have total control over the situation. Only after these terrible events happen will they bring the guns back into these gun free zones and give them back to the 'good guys'. I think they need to either give us concealed carry rights EVERYWHERE or have designated people in these gun free zones that carry and are trained to protect, perhaps a certain number of volunteer students are selected to be armed and trained, sort of like Air Marshals on planes. Bottom line: you need guns to protect gun free zones!
cchardwick is offline  
Old November 15, 2008, 07:34 AM   #32
eriadoc
Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2008
Posts: 23
Quote:
I think they need to either give us concealed carry rights EVERYWHERE or have designated people in these gun free zones that carry and are trained to protect, perhaps a certain number of volunteer students are selected to be armed and trained, sort of like Air Marshals on planes.
I know it's idealistic, but it'd be nice if they just focused on the behavior instead of the implement.
eriadoc is offline  
Old November 15, 2008, 09:45 AM   #33
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,987
See this:

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story...0-947534a6de3c

Excerpts:

The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks.
In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college campuses even for those with permits.
Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.
Now tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 16, 2008, 11:52 PM   #34
Smoke Screen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Cold Rocks Hold, in the Aiel Waste
Posts: 172
In the university I attended, like most universities, there were stupid stipulations to prevent protecting oneself on campus. In addition to the advice already given, I suggest getting involved on an internal level. I lobbied for students in for many beneficial issues and was voted in on the student government board. I was a voting member and helped to vote in a new campus "law" that allowed concealed carry if the individual had his/her CCL. Like most campuses, mine was run by left wing/gun hating students and faculty, but that was one of the highlights of my Student Govt. career.
__________________
Courage does not always roar...Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying "I will try again tomorrow"
Smoke Screen is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 01:46 PM   #35
New_Pollution1086
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2007
Location: WC - CA
Posts: 680
Strictly forbidden at my school. i dont carry yet, but fully intend on it when i buy a pistol. My girlfriend is doing a website on this for a project, i cant wait to hear about her class's reaction.

T
__________________
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm, and it was good"
"Aim Big miss Big, Aim small Miss small"
"Don't rush the monkey and you'll see a better show."
- T. Boone Pickens
New_Pollution1086 is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 01:57 PM   #36
Bauer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 195
You go to Chico State Pollution?

Anyways, the more and more I read on this and think about this, the less sense current laws/policies make to me.
Bauer is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 02:57 PM   #37
Yellowfin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: West Upstate NY
Posts: 2,303
Quote:
About the only valid suit like that is if there is an on-going problem and the company has ignored it and been deceptive in the nature of the danger.
And they have. They tout their anti carry policy as being a safety measure and it is not. That constitutes fraud. They need to be held liable for every rape, robbery, auto theft, etc. and be prosecuted as accomplices.
__________________
Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org
New York gun owners unite! Join now! http://www.nyshooters.net
May Issue is the new Separate but Equal.
Yellowfin is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 04:43 PM   #38
Turbocharged
Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 60
Here is a poll that I found on another forum....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27706201/
__________________
"There are some people who sit behind the wheel everyday unaware of the potential man and machine can have when pushed 10/10th's in a symbiotic relationship." -Unknown
Turbocharged is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 07:06 PM   #39
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
And they have.
Nope. All crimes reported/discovered on campus are logged, noted, and reported for the purpose of dissemination to the public.
Quote:
They tout their anti carry policy as being a safety measure and it is not. That constitutes fraud.
No. Anti-carry is but one part of their overall safety plan, which is fairly successful. Most students on campus get through without any danger or injury. Hard to prove fraud when 99% of the campus will say they have not been hurt.
Quote:
They need to be held liable for every rape, robbery, auto theft, etc. and be prosecuted as accomplices.
You might want to look at the law before saying things like that. I also note that you are pushing SCCC. Might want to think about what kind of message that level of rhetoric sends out to the public.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old November 17, 2008, 07:25 PM   #40
Tennessee Gentleman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Most students on campus get through without any danger or injury.
That same argument could be used to not have concealed carry. Most people go thru life without being the victim of a violent crime. Why have concealed carry? Cause when YOU are the .1% it might matter.

Quote:
Anti-carry is but one part of their overall safety plan,
Quote:
The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks
Banning concealed carry by law abiding citizens does not make places safer except for those who wish to do harm. This safety business is the stuff the Brady Campaign says why we shouldn't have concealed carry.

Quote:
I also note that you are pushing SCCC.
I think we all might consider "pushing" that one.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
Anonymous Soldier.
Tennessee Gentleman is offline  
Old November 19, 2008, 12:36 AM   #41
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,326
Smoke Screen, which university?
raimius is offline  
Old November 25, 2008, 09:10 AM   #42
CarNPlaneNut
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2008
Posts: 10
I recommend taking Krav Maga and learning how to use Pepper Spray properly. Krav Maga will teach some great defensive/offensive moves against knife attackers too.

Jason
CarNPlaneNut is offline  
Old December 3, 2008, 12:27 PM   #43
mav88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2008
Posts: 120
at the college i attend..they banned the proposal for ccw students to carry...simply because they feel that with more armed students...even though they pass background checks and are law abiding citizens..that the campus will be too dangerous...therefore on class days i do not bring my firearm..

i do wish that one day my college will accept ccw
mav88 is offline  
Old December 3, 2008, 12:56 PM   #44
thirdeagle
Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2006
Location: SW Montana
Posts: 54
It gets even more complicated (or less, actually) when the university is on a federal installation. I attended graduate school at a medical school affiliated with a Veterans Admin. hospital. Not only were firearms not permitted by the school (state) the feds also "outlawed" firearms when you entered the grounds. That included concealed carry, open carry, and even transport of firearms. In essence, no guns ever.
thirdeagle is offline  
Old December 5, 2008, 09:26 AM   #45
Kline605
Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: Midwest
Posts: 49
Quote:
As long as someone is old enough and has a concealed weapon permit, they should be allowed to carry on campus.

Quote:
I'm sure the outcome would have been quite different had just a handful of students been armed that day
First of all, I believe that students should be able to carry concealed, But.....

Lets be a little realistic here, there should be some significant training requirements, and not just the standard CCW training. We are not the norm for college students. I work in a college town, and wouldn't trust 3/4 of the students with a rubber band gun.

Being able to wear a handgun, and being able to effectively use a handgun are completely different. Although I believe it's should be every law abiding citizens right to carry, I don't believe that everyone should carry.

I do believe that students and teachers armed and trained would deter a significant amount of these school shooting. I'll even go one better, a well armed and trained society in general will go a long way in reducing violent crime. (Just an opinion)

My problem is not with a student carrying, but with the knowledge that most would not seek adequate training, and fewer still will continue to keep proficient. I know this argument could be made in general regarding most firearm carriers, even police officers.

Regarding the post that firearms should be allowed to be stored on campus in the students vehicles, I strongly disagree. It would not take long before most of these guns were stolen and used by criminals. Easier than robbing a pawn shop. I would rather have the students carry on thier person.
Kline605 is offline  
Old December 5, 2008, 10:10 AM   #46
KLRANGL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
Quote:
I work in a college town, and wouldn't trust 3/4 of the students with a rubber band gun.
From my experience, its the other 1/4 that would end up carrying... The push for concealed carry on campus isnt to "arm" the campus, just to let people who carry in their daily lives carry on campus... Of all the people I know with CHPs, i'd trust any of them around me with a firearm...
So worrying about all the people who would be irresponsible is sorta a moot point.
Not to mention the only people who would legally be able to carry anyway are seniors, old juniors, and older people returning to college..
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book
KLRANGL is offline  
Old December 5, 2008, 10:22 AM   #47
ElectricHellfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
Posts: 2,271
If its concealed, who knows you have it?
__________________
Texas, the only State to Have Ever Kicked Another Country's Butt
ElectricHellfire is offline  
Old December 5, 2008, 10:54 AM   #48
Tennessee Gentleman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
From my experience, its the other 1/4 that would end up carrying... The push for concealed carry on campus isnt to "arm" the campus, just to let people who carry in their daily lives carry on campus... Of all the people I know with CHPs, i'd trust any of them around me with a firearm...
That's the point that most miss. Some student are in their 30s and work and are very responsible. The antis like to conjure up the drunk fraternity boys with guns but that would not be the reality. Campus's are not safer becuase they are "gun-free".
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
Anonymous Soldier.
Tennessee Gentleman is offline  
Old December 5, 2008, 06:36 PM   #49
Tatsumi67
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2007
Posts: 575
There is a student carry lobbyist sort of group at my college, but we still dont have a CCW on campus policy yet. When I turn 21 I'm getting involved.
__________________
"Do what you can, what you want, what you must,feel the hunger inside, just don't lose your trust" - KMFDM, Trust.
NRA Member,Minnesota State Safety Certified,
Eagle Scout
Currently schemeing on an AR-15 build.
Tatsumi67 is offline  
Old December 5, 2008, 07:45 PM   #50
Recon7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Posts: 707
If you plan on carrying anyway, you may not want to join the lobby
Recon7 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13189 seconds with 7 queries