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Old November 12, 2008, 11:36 AM   #1
Patriots
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Jack Huntington: 500JRH 425gr best for self-defense/large game

This thread and ammo recommendation is only for close quarters self-defense for very large game, not for long range hunting.

I called Jack Huntington Tuesday afternoon about his 500JRH ammo in 440gr LBT and 425gr penetrator. I asked him which ammo was best suited for self-defense against large game on close tight situations from a radius of 50 yards to point blank and he said the 500JRH 425gr truncated penetrator load. His 500JRH 440gr LBT is better for hunting deer, elk and smaller black bear.
In all of Jack's tests out in the field the 500JRH 425gr performed the best for stopping power against Grizzly/brown bear, Moose and 2500lb Bison with one shot. It performed better than the Corbon LBT Hard Cast. The reason why is the hardest military-spec alloys/lead will deform once it hits large game if you push the velocity and energy too much. (velocity and energy is overated for close self-defense) If you slow a heavier bullet down some it will penetrate deeper. Companies like Corbon, Grizzly Cartridge, Beartooth want to push their bullets to crazy velocities with too much energy and in all tests that leads to deformed bullets which don't penetrate properly and don't retain their weight. But when it comes to long range hunting and sniping you want a higher velocity bullet with more energy and a flatter trajectory.
Jack also said one of the worst bullet designs you can use for large game other than hollow points is a round nose FMJ or round nose penetrator because it has a tendency to ricochet off hard bone and do some weird inconsistent things once it enters the animal.

The companies that have it right for hunting large game are RH and Garrett Cartridges. (Hammerheads)
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Old November 12, 2008, 11:25 PM   #2
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You should spend some time in the shooter's forum at Beartooth's web. Especially read Marshall Stanton's writings. I have never read anything that says always go for the highest velocity. With all due respect to Jack H., if higher velocity was a deterrent in penetration, big bore rifles wouldn't go any faster than about 1200 f.p.s. Years of study by professional hunters as well as their clients suggest that 2300-2400 f.p.s. is about optimum. A full metal jacketed bullet and a good hard cast perform almost exactly the same, as far as penetration goes. I don't believe any one person can shoot enough game under any and all field conditions to ever be fully qualified to say what is best. Just my opinion.
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Old November 13, 2008, 02:18 AM   #3
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Apples and oranges. Jack has forgotten more about big bore handguns and rifles then most will ever know. He and Hamilton Bowen are the only two gunsmiths with college degrees in gunsmithing, THAT I KNOW OF.

In short, because Jack says something about a handgun round, that does NOT mean it applies to his rifle selection.
I've shot with Jack the following:
Double rifles in 9.3 X 74R, 450 Nitro Express 2, .500 Nitro Express.
Rifle calibers 375 H&H, 458 Lott, .510 VanHorn, etc.

Jacks favorite rifle round is the 9.3 x 74R, using a 286 grain bullet at about 2400 fps. This will kill elephant to mice, with little recoil...

Last edited by Socrates; November 14, 2008 at 07:35 PM.
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Old November 13, 2008, 03:33 AM   #4
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He and Hamilton Bowen are the only two gunsmiths with college degrees in gunsmithing.
Oh, are they? I happen to know quite a few gentlemen (and ladies, for that matter!) that would disagree with you. Colorado School of Trades (here in Colorado, obviously) is the place that such people as Doug Turnbull learned, and CST still has quite a few students each year graduating and getting an Associate's Degree in gunsmithing - CST is an accredited college.
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Old November 13, 2008, 07:13 AM   #5
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From all tests I seen online and in person the ultra high velocity of the S&W 500 in Corbon, Grizzly Cartridge, Beartooth and "some" of BuffaloBore's ammo is they work best and start to come into their own at long range hunting sometimes well over 200+ yards where they work best. My thread was about looking for the best "close quarters self-defense" ammo against large game at a radius from 50 yards to point blank and a large heavy bullet slowed down will penetrate deeper and do more damage. High velocity, high energy hand gun hard cast ammo will deform if used against large game from 100 yards or closer. The best seen and tested in the field has been the 500JRH in 440gr for deer, elk, caribou size game at around 100-150 yards and the 500JRH 425gr penetrator is best for stopping power in close situations from around 50 yards to point blank. If you were a tour guide in Alaska or a national park with lots of dangerous animals or a fisherman in those areas and wanted something for self-defense to pull out quickly you'd want the 500JRH 425gr penetrator is what I and Jack was saying. He tested pretty much all hand gun ammo and found the 425gr works best at close range and stopped many Grizzly/brown bear, Moose, and 2500lb Bison with one shot up close. Jack loves the dangerous almost suicidal chances of up close stopping power when a huge animal is charging and you fire when the animal is less than 30 feet away. His 500JRH 425gr has shown the best results in those situations.

When it comes to stopping power up close for rifle ammo I'm trading in my Weatherby 300 for a Marlin 1895 guide gun in 45/70g govt with a 18.5" barrel. The 300 WBY doesn't even come close in terms of penetration and stopping power compared to the 45/70 govt especially if the Marlin is loaded with Garrett Hammerheads. My friend's using their Marlins always beats my 300 WBY in every bullet trap test with wet newspaper and wood boards we do at the range. The 45/70 in 420gr Garrett Hammerhead blows holes through 7 feet of wet newspaper at 75 yards while my WBY can only penetrate a little over half way. I'm limited to what game I can shoot with my 300 WBY, the largest I safely can go is Caribou, but it's a bolt action gun and it's too dangerous to use for close self-defense, I can't pull the bolt back fast enough. A 45/70 with Garrett 420gr and 540gr+p Hammerhead ammo has more energy at 130 yards than a 375 H&H does at the muzzle and we're seeing tests done that the 45/70 is out penetrating the 458 Lott and Rigby ammo. Garrett 540gr +P Hammerhead is consistently taking elephant, Rhino, Hippo and 2500lb Bison with one shot.
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Old November 13, 2008, 11:59 AM   #6
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Degrees

Socrates: "He and Hamilton Bowen are the only two gunsmiths with college degrees in gunsmithing."
I always enjoy your posts and certainly enjoy the pics of the firearms that you own but when I see statements that contain words like "the only", I wonder how you know that. For all I know, it may be true but it seems like one would have to know about the education of every other gunsmith to make a statement like that and be accurate. Is there only one college that awards such degree and it has had only two graduates? Is that it?
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Old November 14, 2008, 12:05 AM   #7
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A fifty caliber 425gr. bullet for deer, elk, and caribou? HO-CHEE-MAMA!! Jack must be shoot'n too close to the nuclear power plant again!! Keep in mind that EVERY dangerous game on the planet has been taken with a 30-06and some of them several times. (Not that I'd every have the cajones to take on a Cape Buffalo with one, you understand!) Well, I guess its been pretty well established that big game animals today are a lot tougher to kill than they were fifty years ago so maybe those kinds of ballistics make sense (sure!). Well, good for Jack, I'm sure he's killed a LOT more game than I've ever seen, maybe he's got it right.
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Old November 14, 2008, 02:06 AM   #8
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I'd like to know how a .50 in 425-440 gr. @ 1300-1400 is superior to say, my .475 Linebaugh with the same weight bullet at the same speeds. Theoretically, I'd have better penetration do to higher sectional densities.
I posted a good long responce to you guys today, before Horace's tag, but for some reason it didn't take.
Some kind of problem with the sight, so I reported it.
I'm not going to try and remember all of it, but I do want to respond to some things posted above......
Socrates, I have been reading the tags between you and Lionhunter, and I do not wish to be in any sort of fued myself. I'm not afraid to stand my ground, but think everyone is served better with polite discussion.
That said, I know Jack H. is your buddy, and that you respect him. While I don't know him or you personally, I have read his writings on some of these sights. I see that you seem to believe he is the last word on firearms and ammunition. He's not! There is no way possible for any one man to ever kill enough big game with enough different weapons to say definitvely what is the best for any one circumstance or situation.
My belief is to learn from him and Randy Garrett, John Linebaugh, Tim Sundles, John Taffin, Brian Pearce as well as all the custom gunsmiths I can talk to. There is far more to learn from such a broad spectrum like that than any one man.
I lived in Alaska, my brother still does, for near on 21 years. One of his friends that I new when I lived up there is a master giude. If I want to know what works on the big stuff, I ask them. His guide friend [who I don't want to name since he has no part in this discution, and I wouldn't want to offend any future clients of his] has seen more bears and moose killed with just about every kind of weapon imaginabe, than any gunsmith, writer or forum poster ever will. Myself especially included, since I don't claim to know everything. But I have seen and done a fair amount, so I don't speak without some idea as to what I'm talking about.
Patriots- The largest I can safely go is carribou? With your .300 WBY? I'd bet that's news to the late Roy Weatherby AND his son ED. Also to the hundreds of guys who use one on everything Alaska has to offer, every year.
After standing next to some of the big bears and seeing how quick they are,I wouldn't want anything less than my .340 Wby., and I would prefer my .404 or .458 Lott.
I don't care about any penetration tests. There isn't a test out there that effectively similates shooting an enraged, adrenelin filled animal that is determined to kill you. Shooting into an already dead carcass at best allows you to see how your particular load does. Lets face it, no two bullets ever pass through a body the same exact way, so if you shoot that dead body at point A, with gun A, then try to repeat that at point B with gun B, it's not the same.
If the .45/70 lead loads were the final answer to stopping a dangerous animal, professional hunters would be lining up to trade in their doubles and bolt actions for a Marlin.
I'm not knocking the .45/70. I love 'em. Just the same, nothing I could put through my Marlin or Ruger no. 1 will equal my .404 let alone my .458 Lott.
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Old November 14, 2008, 11:04 AM   #9
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I been trying to type a long response to this with links and sources and photos to back up what I been saying about how the 500JRH is a bit different in how it performs compared to the 500S&W in "close tight up close situations" against large game but it won't post for some damn reason.
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Old November 14, 2008, 11:14 AM   #10
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I had trouble here too, yesterday. I left it for about 4 hours and it seemed to be o.k. after that. Also I notified the administrators.
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Old November 14, 2008, 01:01 PM   #11
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I really enjoy big bore threads - we all learn a little from them and there's not many of us that enjoy the big boomers. I just got into the 50 caliber revolver a few months ago and as a reloader I've found it to open up a new new shooting horizon.

Patriots - I would be very interested in knowing how the 500JRH is "different" from the 500S&W in "up tight and personal" situations. Both cartridges are very similar but the 500JRH is 1.4" in length, although the cartridges sold by Jack are a tad shorter (1.394"), while the 500S&W is 1.625" and each will shoot the .500 & .501 diameter bullet. You can handload for each although the 500JRH doesn't like hardcast bullets much over 440 grain unless you modify/relocate the crimp groove or make other adjustments. I would think the 500JRH would have to work a little harder to keep up (pressure wise) with the 500S&W at all velocities with bullet weights of 440 grain and less. I know it can be done but the 500S&W seems to do it easier and with less felt recoil in my opinion. I think the 500JRH or the 500 Linebaugh makes a better carry revolver due to the weight and size and will give you all you should ever need in a close encounter if you can place your shot but the 500S&W will give you the same and MORE if you feel the need for more. If you’re only going to get one shot and you can place that shot to stop the attack I think the 425 or 440 grain bullet from a 500JRH will do it in fine fashion – but I also think the 500 Linebaugh or S&W will do the same job. If one feels the need to go bigger than 440 grain then the S&W is in a class all by itself relative to “regular factory type firearms.”

Gun 4 Fun - The only way I see the 50 being "a little superior" to your 475 is in diameter. It punches a bigger hole with a bigger "slap" than the 475 can but the 475 Linebaugh appears to be an outstanding round in every sense. I've read articles from people that attended the Linebaugh seminar and they had nothing but good to say about the 475's performance. I think the 475 Linebaugh just might take over the 44 Magnum's role as the cartridge that all big bores are measured against. Once you punch a hole clean through an animal busting through bones and everything else that gets in the way of the bullet how much more is required? I've read where the 475 can do it as well as the 500's. I think after I play around with the JRH & SW for awhile I'm going to have to get a 475 Linebaugh just cause .
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Old November 14, 2008, 01:26 PM   #12
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Both the old (Socrates) and new (Patriots) Jack Huntington faithful are at it again, and I, for one, am incredibly tired and bored with their non-stop deification of Jack Huntington as THE EXPERT on this topic. Sorry, but he's not. Please quit preaching his line as the end all on the issue. Follow his advice if you like, but understand that's all it is - advice - and the cost is nothing. How many types and numbers of dangerous game have you guys killed at under 50 yards? I think the answer is ZERO. Same question for JH. I know how many I've killed and a whole lot of African hunters you've never heard of have killed. I spent last night at a dinner with some 50 international hunters, most of whom have taken dangerous game of one type or another, and I'll bet none of them has ever even heard of JH.

Do you believe JH gets to shoot Cape Buffalo to test his theories and ammunition for free? Sorry, but somebody always pays. Since you are clearly fans of JH, you might want to consider being a bit less strident in your praise of him as you may be turning off potential clients. What I'm saying is that you should consider the point of diminishing returns.
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Old November 14, 2008, 02:08 PM   #13
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The 500 S&W and 500JRH are different when you buy them from the factory at their standard pressures they were loaded with. A S&W 500 hard cast from Corbon, Grizzly Cartridge, BuffaloBore are loaded to very extreme pressures which make the bullets more suitable and start to come into their own at pretty far distances for handguns, around 200+ yards and beyond is where the 500 S&W, 460 S&W, 475 Linebaugh, 30/30 Winchester, 444 Marlin start to shine because of their flatter trajectory. Such high velocity in a handgun round for a hard cast bullet will in many cases deform the bullet when fired at close range against very large heavy boned game.
The 500JRH ammo is loaded to less pressures, it's a slower moving bullet and does a better job at stopping power and doing more internal damage than a ultra high velocity bullet does of the same caliber and size. Jack designed the 500JRH to be the 45acp for the animal world, a heavy slow moving hard hitting bullet for "up close tight situations" and not for hunting. A slower moving heavy 45acp will stop an attacker in your home more than a ultra fast 45acp will of the same size and Jack and many others proved the same for animals as they tested it themselves. The 500JRH was designed to do that and has worked.
Jack and many others went out and wanted to simulate what close quarters self-defense situations are like and why animals are attacking people so close and wanted to design a bullet to "STOP" animals with one shot. His 500JRH 425gr truncated cone penetrator is designed specifically for "close self-defense situations" for stopping power, NOT for hunting and his penetrator round does a better job at stopping animals with one shot "close up" than a high velocity LBT hard cast bullet does. BUT the high velocity LBT hard cast is superior at long range hunting at over 200+ yards.
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Old November 14, 2008, 02:17 PM   #14
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I would think the 500JRH would have to work a little harder to keep up (pressure wise) with the 500S&W at all velocities with bullet weights of 440 grain and less.
My post above explains why velocity is overated and not needed for "CLOSE SELF-DEFENSE" against large heavy boned game which this threat is about. This thread is NOT about hunting, just for self-defense and looking for a superior stopping round close up.

A high velocity S&W 500 with the hardest military spec alloys/lead when used close up on a large animal has a tendency to deform and not retain it's weight as much. A slower moving 500JRH will do more damage to the animal internally and leave a far greater exit wound than a ultra fast S&W500 will. Jack's 425gr truncated cone penetrator will do the most damage the way it tears about bone and meat inside the animal and sometimes blasts a larger than golf ball size hole out the other side. We're looking for a up close "stopping" round and not a long range hunting round here.

Again the 500S&W, 460S&W, 30/30 Win, 475 Linebaugh, 444 Marlin are superior for longer range hunting. Now if you want to load your own home S&W500 ammo with much less pressures then it will peform much better for close quarters situation. But we're talking about ammo you buy from the distributor already loaded.
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Old November 14, 2008, 02:37 PM   #15
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I'd like to know how a .50 in 425-440 gr. @ 1300-1400 is superior to say, my .475 Linebaugh with the same weight bullet at the same speeds. Theoretically, I'd have better penetration do to higher sectional densities.
The S&W500, 500JRH, 50AE, 45/70 "IF" loaded to moderate pressures are all better "stopping" rounds for up close self-defense situations compared to the 475 Linebaugh. Because the 475 is similar to the 480 Ruger, 460S&W and 444 Marlin, they are very thin long bullets with much smaller meplat. Meplat size is most important for stopping large game and that's something that Garrett Cartridges perfected and understands for creating the ultra successful Hammerhead bullets. What is the meplat size of a 475 Linebaugh? The Meplat size on Garrett's 44magnum Hammerheads is 320". I would take Garrett's 44mag Hammerhead anyday over a 475 Linebaugh for "up close stopping power" against large game. Since wound channel diameter is much more a product of meplat diameter than actual bullet diameter, Garrett's view is that all non-expanding hunting bullets should utilize very broad meplats. Broader meplats result in larger diameter wound channels, which increase the speed of incapacitation. (According to Garrett) Another benefit of broad meplated bullets is increased penetration depth.
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Old November 14, 2008, 02:38 PM   #16
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misquote =
Quote:
My post above explains why velocity is overated and not needed for "CLOSE SELF-DEFENSE" against large heavy boned game which this threat is about.
Sorry, meant "thread" not threat.
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Old November 14, 2008, 02:52 PM   #17
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Why velocity is overated for up-close self-defense against large game and a slower heavy moving bullet is superior = The stress experienced by a bullet upon impact is the product of the toughness of the target and the speed of impact. Therefore, when engaging an extremely tough target at close-quarters, such as a heavy coastal grizzly or buffalo, reliable power is best achieved by lowering velocity and increasing bullet weight. This insures that impact velocity is not excessive, which can overwhelm even the toughest alloy. Although well suited to grizzly hunting, the higher velocity and flatter trajectory bullets are best deployed as a heavy game hunting round, whereas a heavy slower moving bullet with a huge, meplat, extreme weight, and lower velocity, is best deployed as a heavy game close-quarters stopper.
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Old November 14, 2008, 03:25 PM   #18
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I spent last night at a dinner with some 50 international hunters, most of whom have taken dangerous game of one type or another, and I'll bet none of them has ever even heard of JH.
I think you're taking this a little too personally. No one is attacking your manhood or how many times you went to Africa and I never once was comparing your accomplishments and knowledge to Jack's and if it came across like I was then I wasn't intending to do that, that wasn't my intentions.

There are thousands of excellent hunters that have killed countless bears, elephants, rhinos, hippos that we most likely never even heard of who haven't been discovered or don't want the publicity.

Vince Lupo is one of my favorite hunters and he proved how the Marlin 1895 guide gun with 18.9" barrel chambered in 45/70 using Garrett Hammerheads is more effective and has better stopping power compared to the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott does. Both Garrett's slower moving 45-70 loads generate as big a Taylor Knockout Value at 130-yards as does the 375 H&H with 300-grain bullets measured at the muzzle. It was demonstrated for all to see at a recent John Linebaugh seminar. The penetration results, which parallel Garrett's, demonstrated that the 458 Winchester Magnum produces 47-inches of penetration in wet newspaper with 500-grain roundnose solids and that the 500 Nitro Express produces 48-inches of penetration in wet newspaper with 570-grain roundnose solids. By comparison, Garrett's 540-grainer with its super blunt front end produces an impressive 55-inches of penetration in the same material. Nearly 20% deeper penetration than the 458 or 500 Nitro Express with roundnose solids! Garrett's move slower, but have a larger meplat as velocity is overated for closer self-defense "stopping power"

Vince Lupo set many world records on his African hunt to take the 'Big 6' using his Marlin 1895 in 45/70 as you can read about his exciting African hunt here: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
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Old November 14, 2008, 04:57 PM   #19
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I don't know Patriots, I can’t subscribe to most of your explanations because if the bullet is constructed so it will stay together under most conditions then speed plus mass is your friend. We need to keep everything constant if we can – that being well constructed bullets that will stay together when hitting bone at “high” speed. Solids, special hard cast etc – doesn’t matter, it just has to stay together. We can’t compare good bullets and not so good bullets when discussing penetration, as a good slow moving bullet will probably out penetrate a fast not so good bullet every time. The reason most people don’t shoot heavy bullets at high velocity is because of recoil, which is not friendly to anyone I know. You will produce a larger shock wave, often times referred to as the temporary cavity, with the faster bullet and if the bullet tumbles and yet maintains somewhat of a straight line from entry to exit it’s going to do a lot of damage and be very effective if your shot placement is on the money. If the bullet doesn’t tumble it won’t create as much damage and if it tumbles and goes off course to an extreme it might not be as effective. There is a velocity for every bullet that is the optimum relative to penetration. Going beyond that velocity is going to give you more penetration with a lot more recoil but not in the same proportion as the “optimum velocity”, if that makes any sense the way I said it. Jack no doubt has found the optimum loads for the 500JRH. The 425 grain JRH at 1350 fps is harsher than the 440 grain JRH at 950fps relative to felt recoil and the 465 grain at over 1400fps is downright unpleasant. Jack’s load data for the JRH just doesn’t apply to the 500 S&W in my opinion. With the proper bullets the S&W can shoot heavier bullets faster than the JRH resulting in greater penetration with a corresponding larger shock wave with less recoil - that is if one feels the need for that type of power.

A large Meplat provides the slap to your round but decreases penetration. Gibson (Ranger Rick) has a 440 grain hard cast 500 diameter bullet with a 90% meplat – I don’t know of anyone making a larger one. I’ve measured several 500 and 501 diameter bullets and the meplat’s ran from .350 on 465 grain LN bullets, .410 on 535 grain Keith style bullets to .460 on Ranger Ricks 440 grain FN bullet that is advertised as having a 90% meplat – I found it a little larger than 90%. When I measured the 425 and 440 grain bullets manufactured by Buffalo Bore for the 500 JRH I found both rounds possessed a .385 meplat.

With the 500S&W with a 600 grain bullet I have a Taylor KO something like 55 but I would take a "small" heavy rifle like a 375H&H everytime in a close encounter because I'd rather eat bear than have him chew on me.

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Old November 14, 2008, 06:02 PM   #20
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I don't know Patriots, I can’t subscribe to most of your explanations because if the bullet is constructed so it will stay together under most conditions then speed plus mass is your friend. We need to keep everything constant if we can – that being well constructed bullets that will stay together when hitting bone at “high” speed. Solids, special hard cast etc – doesn’t matter, it just has to stay together. We can’t compare good bullets and not so good bullets when discussing penetration, as a good slow moving bullet will probably out penetrate a fast not so good bullet every time. The reason most people don’t shoot heavy bullets at high velocity is because of recoil, which is not friendly to anyone I know. You will produce a larger shock wave, often times referred to as the temporary cavity, with the faster bullet and if the bullet tumbles and yet maintains somewhat of a straight line from entry to exit it’s going to do a lot of damage and be very effective if your shot placement is on the money. If the bullet doesn’t tumble it won’t create as much damage and if it tumbles and goes off course to an extreme it might not be as effective. There is a velocity for every bullet that is the optimum relative to penetration. Going beyond that velocity is going to give you more penetration with a lot more recoil but not in the same proportion as the “optimum velocity”, if that makes any sense the way I said it.
The 500 S&W the way it is from factory load pressures out of the box is best used and gets the best results from "hunting" large game at a distance at over 150 yards to 200 yards and beyond where it comes into it's own. If the 500 S&W was loaded to less pressures it would be perfect for self-defense stopping power up close against large game. That's why Jack created the 500JRH which works better at close distances against large game compared to the S&W500, but the S&W500 works better at long rage. The S&W500 factory loaded is so fast that no matter how good the quality the bullet material is, if fired at close range against very large game it has a good chance of deforming the bullet and losing weight retention.
Jack and his fellow hunters went out into the field doing suicide style tests where they would get the animal to charge them and wait till it was around 20 feet away or less and fire, this was against bear, moose, and 2500lb Bison. All the actual real world tests showed a slower moving 500 bullet penetrates better than a ultra fast one does of the same size and weight. Jack designed the 500JRH in 440gr and 425gr for self-defense in those situations mostly.
The optimum velocity for the 500 S&W depends on what you want to use it for specifically. It's optimum is at it's best when like I said it's fired at game at a distance of 150-200 yards where it shines. The 500JRH's optimum is at it's best from a 50 yard radius to point blank. It's a "stopping" round, not a hunting round.
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Old November 14, 2008, 06:37 PM   #21
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A large Meplat provides the slap to your round but decreases penetration.
Determination of meplat diameter is a compelling issue. Since wound channel diameter is far more a product of meplat diameter than actual bullet diameter, impact-effect can be considerably enhanced through the use of bullets with wider than normal meplats. Garrett's 45-70 bullets are the bluntest in the industry, and provide superior impact-effect as a result. It is Garrett's view that proper hard-cast bullets must have wide meplats in order to quickly dispatch big game. Meplat diameter is also relevant to the issue of magazine safety. Recoil battering of the cartridges in the tubular magazine mandates the use of blunt flatnose bullets. The greater the recoil pulse, the greater the recoil battering of the cartridges in the tubular magazine. It is Garrett's opinion that when firing heavy recoiling loads, safety from a catastrophic magazine ignition is increased with bullets possessing wider than normal meplats. Garrett's bullets have meplat diameters of .330-inch on the 420-grainer, and .360-inch on the 540-grainer. They dwarf the all too common .300-inch meplat. When using hard cast bullets it is essential to use a blunt front end (broad meplat) in order to quickly incapacitate game.
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Old November 14, 2008, 06:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
With the 500S&W with a 600 grain bullet I have a Taylor KO something like 55 but I would take a "small" heavy rifle like a 375H&H everytime in a close encounter because I'd rather eat bear than have him chew on me.
I'd take a S&W500 chambered in either 500S&W or 500JRH any day over any rifle as people are taking the largest game on earth up close with the S&W500 hand cannon, and it's more maneuverable, easier to pull out quickly, easier to aim, faster follow-up shots. When an animal or anyone is charging at you so fast and is right on top of you, how do you swing around a bolt-action rifle with a 24" to 26" barrel and aim, hoping your first shot actually hits the target and pull the heavy bolt back and load in another round quick enough? This is real world, not Hollywood movies. And if you are carrying a heavy bolt-action rifle and you miss on your first shot you'd be chewed up and crapped out if you weren't with 2-3 other guides. If I had to choose any rifle to use for self-defense in tight situations I'd choose a Marlin 1895 guide gun with an 18.5" barrel chambered in 45/70 with Garrett's hammerhead ammo. Both of Garrett's 45/70 Hammerhead loads in 420gr and 540gr generate as big a Taylor Knockout Value at 130-yards as does the 375 H&H with 300-grain bullets measured at the muzzle.
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Old November 14, 2008, 08:36 PM   #23
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[QUOTESocrates, I have been reading the tags between you and Lionhunter, and I do not wish to be in any sort of fued myself. I'm not afraid to stand my ground, but think everyone is served better with polite discussion.
That said, I know Jack H. is your buddy, and that you respect him. While I don't know him or you personally, I have read his writings on some of these sights. I see that you seem to believe he is the last word on firearms and ammunition. He's not! There is no way possible for any one man to ever kill enough big game with enough different weapons to say definitvely what is the best for any one circumstance or situation.
My belief is to learn from him and Randy Garrett, John Linebaugh, Tim Sundles, John Taffin, Brian Pearce as well as all the custom gunsmiths I can talk to. There is far more to learn from such a broad spectrum like that than any one man.][/QUOTE]
That's actually really funny, Gun 4 Fun. Once your in the circle of gunsmiths, it's a small world. They pretty much all know each other, know each others work, and respect each other. Gil Van Horn is a very good friend of Jacks. Tim Sundles makes his ammunition. John Taffin does writeups on his guns. I've spent a lot of time writing John Linebaugh, and vice versa, over nearly 30 years, and, Lee Jurras a bit as well. I've corresponded with Hamilton Bowen, and Gary Reeder.
I've spent an hour on the phone with Ross Seyfried, thanks to John Linebaugh, going over his killing a cape buffalo with a Linebaugh 45. I helped develop the BRI sabot shotgun rounds nearly 30 years ago.

Randy Smith, who has since passed, and worked at Freedom Arms and Jack conversed a LOT about developing the .500 JRH. Jack's had more then a few discussions with the Bakers.

Now, all that time, energy, and information gathering is worthless, at least according to Lionhunter, because,
"
Quote:
How many types and numbers of dangerous game have you guys killed at under 50 yards?
Because we don't hunt dangerous game, we can't learn from years of experience and discussion with other people, and, any shooting we've done.

That belief pretty much turns any discussion of stopping rifles or handguns to a very select rich few, who have survived the first experience, or so. It also gets rid of 90% of the gunsmiths in the world, and, nearly 99.999% of the shooters, cartridge developers, and industry folk.

My real point is Jack would be the last one to say he has the ONLY solutions, or that he is the 'greatest'
gunsmith. He'll explain why he came to those conclusions, and, you can draw your own conclusions.


Quote:
Both the old (Socrates) and new (Patriots) Jack Huntington faithful are at it again, and I, for one, am incredibly tired and bored with their non-stop deification of Jack Huntington as THE EXPERT on this topic. Sorry, but he's not. Please quit preaching his line as the end all on the issue. Follow his advice if you like, but understand that's all it is - advice - and the cost is nothing. How many types and numbers of dangerous game have you guys killed at under 50 yards? I think the answer is ZERO. Same question for JH.
Lionhunter: If you have that question for Jack, call him. Scared or something? I gather you and Jack don't get along. Want to post your real name, and I'll ask him who you are?

Quote:
I spent last night at a dinner with some 50 international hunters, most of whom have taken dangerous game of one type or another, and I'll bet none of them has ever even heard of JH.
That's real intresting, since many of the hunters on accuratereloading.com have guns built by Jack, and, take dangerous game with them. Also, as you well know, the number of handgun hunters is very few, relative to rifle hunters, that take dangerous game. Therefore it's relatively easy to get your name in the record books for 'trophy animals', since so few are taken, the quality of the trophies is not near that of the rifle side.

Mr. Huntington builds a LOT of guns, both rifles and pistols, for Alaska and Africa. I suspect if you polled your '50 hunters' more would know him then you think.

All that said, how could anyone say that Jack Huntington wouldn't like the S&@ 500??? It's the parent cartridge for his cartridges....
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Old November 14, 2008, 09:08 PM   #24
Socrates
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Now, Patriots.

Remember the double rifle. It's been around for a long time, and for a very good reason.

Second: Jack would be the first one to tell you the merits of heavy caliber rifles. He'll say his cartridges kill about the same as a .375 H&H, not a 450 Nitro Express. Starting with the .416's, and going up, there is NO revolver that can compare. Also, certain calibers, I think from the .416 to .500's, allow you to get shots off fast enough so you can hit twice with a bolt action rifle. The REAL advantage is they create enough of a reaction that the animal either goes the other way, or, reacts by being 'knocked down', by whatever causes that reaction. This allows you to finish the animal with the other barrel, or, with a second shot from a bolt gun.

There does seem to be a difference when bullet weight is added. The .510 Max, and the .500 S&@ are in a league by themselves in being able to shoot over 440 grain bullets. 525's, my current load for my maximum, are reported to REALLY effect large game, if shot placement is good, and, really **** them off if it's not.

While my Max, and the 500 are both around or over 3000 ft lbs of energy, for perspective, 375 H&H loads come in at around 4500-5000 ft-bs, in custom loads. You can contrast that with the .475 Ackley, 500 grains at 2400 fps, for 6,400 ft pounds of energy, or, the 458 Lott, At 5,875 ft-lbs of energy. There is really no comparision.

The arguments for bullet construction limiting the ability to use velocity are invalid. Punch bullets, GS, Barnes, all are monometal, or dual metal bullets that when shot into dirt, can just about be cleaned off, and shot again, they are so strong.

Now, for some reason I can't really figure out, the .500's seem to kill WAY better then they should. The ballistic tables don't indicate why.

Do I feel undergunned with a .475 Linebaugh???
Do I want to get hit with a 400 grain XTP at 1350 fps, that will break both shoulders on an elk, punch a nice big exit hole, and keep on going? Not high on my list. I'd like to see that load tested at Linebaugh's...
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Old November 14, 2008, 10:04 PM   #25
Ole 5 hole group
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Socrates - you confused me but that's relatively easy according to the War Department. When you said "The arguments for bullet construction limiting the ability to use velocity are invalid. Punch bullets, GS, Barnes, all are monometal, or dual metal bullets that when shot into dirt, can just about be cleaned off, and shot again, they are so strong."

My point was the bullet has to maintain its integrity (no serious fragmentation/breakup) for maximum penetration for that particular load, whether it’s moving 900 fps or 1700 fps. Am I off base here or are we saying the same thing using different words? Your Max - that's Linebaughs cartridge right? I believe its case measures 1.610" and utilizes the .511 diameter bullet. Now that puppy should make one sit up and take notice!
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