The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 21, 2008, 10:25 PM   #26
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
I like to find some secluded place to shoot and try all sorts of real world targets to determine if they are concealment or cover. You'd be surprised. I hear that .223 rifles have a tough time penetrating windshields because of the angle and most just bounce right off.

having shot many many 5.56 at a large variety of windsheilds(bmw m3-dump truck) i can assure that this is untrue.

it also takes a suprising amount of 5.56 to stop/seize an engine.
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Old November 21, 2008, 10:54 PM   #27
OldShooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 846
cover

On TV the car door is cover, in real life it's concealment.
OldShooter is offline  
Old November 22, 2008, 04:37 PM   #28
Dizzipator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 1999
Location: Central CT
Posts: 149
Police Interceptor Kevlar Panels

The doors of police cruisers sometimes do offer cover and not merely concealment.

Beginning a few years ago Ford started offering the option of factory installed Kevlar panels in the doors of Crown Victoria Police Interceptors. I believe this was an attempt to capture some of the market discovered for such products by aftermarket installers.

They were somewhat expensive, starting out at over $1,000 per door, with the option of ordering panels in both front doors or just the driver's door.

The manufacturer brags about its products here:

http://www.body-armor.com/vehicle.php
__________________
Socialism is the myth that two people can live off each other indefinitely without either of them doing any work.

Last edited by Dizzipator; November 22, 2008 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Found manufacturer's website.
Dizzipator is offline  
Old November 28, 2008, 02:20 PM   #29
nemoaz
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2007
Location: Meechigan
Posts: 492
Quote:
On TV the car door is cover, in real life it's concealment.
That being said, most people are quite indoctrinated by TV. When I attended some training recently, one of the other students was addressing a target in a pickup truck. The bad guy lost sight of the student, who ducked and moved all the way around the back of the bed to shoot the bad guy through the open driver's window while the driver was still searching for the student on the passenger side. The instructor said good job, but why didn't you just shoot him through the cab? Two layers of sheet metal and some vinyl isn't cover and you can see where the bad guy is.

We're trained to look for that clean shot. Hunting may play a part of that also. We wait until the deer is out of the thicket to get that sure one shot kill.
nemoaz is offline  
Old November 29, 2008, 12:52 AM   #30
Regular Joe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2008
Posts: 171
I read an account of a BG who had ambushed LE with a .45 ACP. BG was eventually killed, but all 8 of the .40 S&W hits he took (180 gr. hydrashocks) had passed thru the car he was hiding behind, and all penetrated only an inch. He was finally hit by 00 buck that was fired at his feet under the car, and finished with 5 shots of .223.
Lessons learned:
Hide behind anything you can get to.
Don't rely on anything to be the "end all" for any situation.
Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized
If you're caught in a bad spot and you have a lull and a fresh mag, switch to the fresh mag!
Regular Joe is offline  
Old November 29, 2008, 01:57 AM   #31
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,948
Actually you fire the 00buck at the road near the car in line with the BG when his feet are swept out from under him you follow up with a couple more blasts. You can do the same thing with a handgun I used to teach it.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old November 29, 2008, 02:17 AM   #32
DWARREN123
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2006
Location: BETWEEN TN & KY
Posts: 1,758
I also believe some departments put a ballistic shield in the doors.
Any cover is better than none and concealment helps.
__________________
Have a nice day!
DWARREN123 is offline  
Old December 6, 2008, 07:38 PM   #33
bustavista32
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2008
Posts: 9
If there is a bulletproof tree in the vicinity, then the police might take cover there. Hehehe!
bustavista32 is offline  
Old December 6, 2008, 07:48 PM   #34
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,185
any object with mass is going to be "resistant"... The question is to what degree. Any cover is better than no cover. Cover is more than just a bullit deflector. It obscures the position of the body that you have behind it. Thus making the shooter estimate where your body is or just limit them to shooting at the part you have exposed(which is much smaller).
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old December 6, 2008, 08:02 PM   #35
ZeSpectre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 3,276
For the same reason folks "hide in the dark" even though we now have night vision stuff. Instinct is to get out of the light or behind concealment of some sort.

Also, as has been covered, newer cruisers might actually have the ballistic panels installed.
ZeSpectre is offline  
Old December 7, 2008, 12:43 AM   #36
Rich Miranda
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2008
Location: San Antonio, not San Antone...
Posts: 1,203
About 10 years ago the city of Los Angeles made all of the driver side doors and windows on patrol cars bulletproof (their words). This was on the news and the big concern was cost, something like $1500 plus per car.

I'm not sure they could stop a .50 BMG round, but I'm sure they got the handgun and most normal rifle rounds stopped. In this case, the door makes more sense as cover.
__________________
Read this!: I collect .38 Special and .357 Mag cartridges and I will PAY CASH for the headstamps I don't already have! Please PM me.
Please donate blood, plasma, and platelets - people's lives literally depend on it.
Rich Miranda is offline  
Old December 8, 2008, 07:19 PM   #37
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,948
We had a motor officer get in a situation where the only thing he had to hide behind was a parking meter post. He used it and survived. Either the BG was a lousy shot or someone was on his shoulder.
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old December 8, 2008, 08:08 PM   #38
SDC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2001
Location: People's Republic of Kanada
Posts: 1,638
For exactly the same reason that this guy ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9zy37-_0LU ) is doing his best to hide behind a 6" tree; having SOMETHING (ANYTHING) between you and the person shooting at you is a whole lot better than having nothing at all.
__________________
Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.
SDC is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08869 seconds with 7 queries