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Old November 11, 2008, 10:56 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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Wad in the Snout - shotgun fun for the hostage

This past weekend, my gun club - River City - put on a three gun match. Love it. One stage had three hostage setups - Hostage, BG side by side targets at a reasonble distance.so you had about a 12 inch to 18 pattern spread - just a rough guess. The load was 00 buckshot and one had to peel the BG off the hostage.

The concern was obviously not to put the pattern in dear old Mom, the kid, the wife, etc.

Most of us did it quite well. However, I've noticed this before - the hostage took the wad in come or right in the noggin. It blasted clear through the IDPA target (obviously, not flesh). So for those who argue that the shotgun is the ultimate HD GUN!! Independent of racking it (the guaranteed cure all), do you worry about this? That wad could take an eye out!

BTW, those are fun guns to shoot.
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Old November 11, 2008, 03:53 PM   #2
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If one nails the BG, the hostage walks away free and alive, "What's to worry amount ?" is my thinking.
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Old November 11, 2008, 03:55 PM   #3
Glenn E. Meyer
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It could take their eye out! I guess the serious issue is whether one would be better off with a rifle or a slug.

That's why the shotgun training with the slug drop in exercises.
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:22 PM   #4
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I've often wondered if the wadding ricocheting of the bad guy or a wall, and back at the shooter, would pose a hazard (if done at close range, obviously).
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:28 PM   #5
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I sure hope they don't allow the hostages to be in-laws. I think they would get hit much more often than the hostage takers!

Using a shotgun to pick hostiles off of friendlies is not good idea. An assault rifle would be way better. I would even prefer to use a handgun for such "surgical" work. Now if that was a rifled barrel shotgun with slugs and a scope, that might work too! I'd just be a bit concerned about over penetration.
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:28 PM   #6
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That's yet another reason I like Brenneke slugs. Attached wad stays with the slug. One shot one hole.

I've seen shotgun wads put big dents in plywood target backers. I'd just as soon my loved ones not be dented in the noggin. I suppose it could be fatal if it went through the eye or nasal cavity.
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Old November 12, 2008, 01:29 AM   #7
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If some crazy fool has taken me hostage & I'm lucky enough to have someone around who is *good* enough to peel him off of me with a shotgun I'd happily take a wad to the face.
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Old November 12, 2008, 02:24 AM   #8
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Can anyone cite an instance where a homeowner has had to make an actual hostage shot?
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Old November 12, 2008, 03:07 AM   #9
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A wad to the face, or 9 pellets to the chest? Hmmm... 1 wad please.
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Old November 12, 2008, 06:29 PM   #10
Scattergun Bob
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Glenn E. Meyer

Hi Glenn, glad to see that you got some scattergun time in.

"So for those who argue that the shotgun is the ultimate HD GUN!!" I am not sure I fit the bill, but I will try to comment.

I am a little confused by the pattern size, in general my measuring stick for patterns of 00 tends to say 1" of pattern expansion per 3 to 4 feet of horizontal distance. Notice I did not use the word "average", yes, I have learned my lesson! I would tend to believe that you folks were about 40 to 50 feet from your BG targets, and for me that seem a bit far to take such a high value shot. It is important in the match to test skill, but in my opnion this would not transfer over to Home Defense. I could be wrong on the distance, or on my math.

So here are my thoughts on this;

1. If you were indeed @ 50 ft target distance I would be much more worried about "flyers" than shot cups. Flyers are those pesky balls that oddly deform for no defined reason and fly well outside the nominal group size. Even with my best barrel, choke and ammo selected on occasion flyers occur. Really bad news for dear old Mom.

2. Holding Off sucks, when objects are moving around. Lots of folks teach hold offs and the system works well for stationary targets. Once the BG is moving in 2 dimensions those fixed leads go away. All of us who attended Louie schools and met the old moving bad guy and the baby know exactly what I am speaking of.

3. Transition to slugs, requires time, do we have it, are we behind cover, what keeps the bad guy from attacking us? I practice this a lot, and solved for the moving bad guy and the baby several times with this skill. But do not know of any real world examples of transition to slugs saving the day, perhaps others do.

4. Federal and Remington shot cups seem to "die" quicker than some other brands and I find them usually 20 to 30 feet down range veins fully deployed. Some old buffer materials "glue"tougher the shot cup veins these cups do travel down range. I have noticed that chokes that regulate (slow down) the shot cup consistently remove the wad from the targeting area in about 12 feet. I would think that a fully deployed shot cup would not be life threatening but YES, could put your eye out.

I would not bring a scattergun to the fight you document.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old November 13, 2008, 12:16 PM   #11
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9/10 women prefer a wad to the face.:barf:
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Old November 25, 2008, 07:21 PM   #12
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Sounds like a fun event.
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Old November 26, 2008, 04:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
could take an eye out!
Perhaps it is the holiday season, but I think that you are referring to a Daisy Red Rider BB gun!
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Old November 26, 2008, 07:07 AM   #14
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Can anyone cite an instance where a homeowner has had to make an actual hostage shot?

I have taught lots of serving Military/Police/Security since 1980, never heard of anyone not in those trades taking a hostage shot.

A LEO who goes to those nice calls "Domestics!" must be able to hit a 2" mark (eye socket) at 15' the width of a kitchen, and shoot sooner rather than later, a knife in hand travels that distance real quick.
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Old November 26, 2008, 07:35 AM   #15
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In actual shootings where the wad strikes a body (almost always the body of the same person who takes the rest of the pattern, but separated by 8-10 inches, depending on the range), the wad will leave a cherry or cross-shaped bruise, depending on the type of wad. Compared to the other alternatives, a bruise is preferable.
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Old November 26, 2008, 06:07 PM   #16
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And this is why one patterns their gun to know where the gun shoots and where such as wadding goes.

If done correctly, the aimoff should avoid the hostage being struck with the wadding.

But you have to know your shotgun very well.
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Old November 26, 2008, 06:46 PM   #17
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It sounds like some kind of wet dream fantasy to me. Only a few, highly-trained people would even consider such a shot, and then only in the last extreme. I think they have hostage negotiators for that kind of situation; not amateurs with shotguns and emotional involvement. Why not focus on something real and useful?
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Old November 26, 2008, 06:55 PM   #18
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One day skippin' school so we could all hunt an older kid got the bright idea to dump the shot out of a 12 ga shell and came into the living room where I was playing space invaders on atari and said "HEY BRENT..." I turned my head and he dropped the hammer. I was hit from approx. 15-18 maybe 20 feet right on the cheek bone under my eye. It split the skin some and hurt like a sum buck. These boyz were dumb for doing it but smart for knowing my reaction would be "OH YEAH MUDDER EFFER WATCH THIS..." as I found they had hid my .410 shells before hand to give me a cooling off period. Needless to say I ambushed the much larger older guy (over 18) with a 3 hole redbrick in the dark and made up for it...
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Old November 26, 2008, 07:17 PM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
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Not to hijack my own thread but some recent rampages and terrorists have made the wait for the negotiators strategy a crap shoot.

To get in back on track - yes, it was a fun event! Next, rather have a rifle for such.

Why not wait for the negotiators? If you were faced with the Amish School Pedofile who wanted to die after an afternoon of raping little girls and you had a shot at him in a crowded venue or with a hostage - would you take it? Or let him barricade himself in the school with the little kids and KY jelly?

Rare but it happens.
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Old November 26, 2008, 08:29 PM   #20
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Picking Grandson up!

That kind of stimulus, having your blood line in that building full of gunshots and no official help around might cause caution to go out the door.

Being as I am not a picker up of this big fella (6'2' 210 lbs) and he having just turned 16YOA 18th of Nov; not a lot of chance there.
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Old November 27, 2008, 02:12 AM   #21
Ricky B
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I guess the serious issue is whether one would be better off with a rifle or a slug.

Um, that's not really a serious issue. Glad to see you agree that "rather have a rifle for such."
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