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Old November 9, 2008, 11:46 AM   #1
Number19
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CZ 452 LUX vs ULTRA-LUX

Hi everybody, my first post here and after the most part of spending two days searching the web and I don't know how many forums, decided I needed help in finding the information I was looking for.

I'm trying to understand the "why" of having a 28.6 inch barrel on a .22.

My understanding is that, for this caliber, something like a 19 inch barrel is optimum. The longer length has two advantages, that I have found: 1) longer sight line for open sights, and 2) they are quieter.

But, I have found no real analysis of the Lux vs the Ultra-Lux, beyond the fact that the longer barrel of the Ultra may be superior for the same two reasons above. Does the longer barrel have a slight disadvantage in accuracy because of the additional friction of the longer barrel?

Am I overlooking something? For a field gun, is there any real reason to choose one over the other? The two seem to be comparable in accuracy, from what I have found. Is this true?

One other thing. Has anyone tried the new 453 LUX? When is it anticipated for the American market?

I appreciate your comments.

Last edited by Number19; November 9, 2008 at 09:09 PM.
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Old November 10, 2008, 09:45 AM   #2
DWARREN123
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Mostly looks, I have both plus a Shilouette and find no difference in accuracy besides what would occur between open sights and a scope on any firearm.
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Old November 10, 2008, 08:16 PM   #3
Number19
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I've given this much thought since posting my question. First, I made a mistake when I referred to "accuracy". I should have been focusing on muzzle velocity.

What I have found in the last 24 hours is that there isn't a single .22 bullet which stays super sonic out to 100 yds, at any temperature except freezing. The sound barrier is 1080 fps at 32 deg F, but rises to 1125 fps at 68 deg F.

The optimum barrel length for .22 is a little under 19". Any length beyond this and you are simply scrubbing velocity due to friction of the bullet against the barrel wall. I'm thinking that factory numbers are taken with an optimum barrel and do not represent what is actually the case with many rifles.

Now as I previously mentioned, even a load like the CCI Velocitor drops to 1112 at 100 yards, which is sub-sonic in most weather down South, here. Not ideal for maximum accuracy, as the bullet breaks through this barrier just before impacting the target.

Now, I was just wondering, take a load like the CCI Silhouette, a 40 gram HP. The usual numbers for this shell is 1235 fps at the muzzle and 1026 fps at 100 yds. What I was wondering was whether the longer barrel allows just enough velocity to be scrubbed to be a "hot" sub-sonic and to also allow the highest possible sub-sonic velocity out at 100 yds. The 40 gram bullet should also be more stable than 32 grams, particularly when dealing with a little wind. And a bigger bullet hits harder than a smaller.

Another thought: the CZ's are noted for having a barrel which is just a fraction tighter that most guns. This may allow just a little more velocity to be scrubbed than usual, making my reasoning more plausible. These guns (the CZ-452/453) are noted to be the most accurate in the world at their price level. There has to be a reason for this.

Am I making any sense?

One final note, I went ahead and ordered the Ultra-Lux today, at noon - $309.99, a really great price. They said the rifle would ship - TODAY - if my hometown dealer would fax their number before 2PM. Let me give them a plug : www.whittakerguns.com , located in Kentucky.

As I start finding out which ammo my gun likes, my starting point is going to be based on my reasoning above.

(edit) The Aguila Super Maximum, 30 gram in both HP and S, is rated at 1191 fps at 100 yds.
(edit2) Whittakerguns is the dealer from whom I purchased my Ultra-Lux, and not my hometown dealer.

Last edited by Number19; November 10, 2008 at 09:46 PM.
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Old November 10, 2008, 08:48 PM   #4
j.chappell
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Do me a favor, post a link to any shop or site that has an "Ultra Lux"

J.

Last edited by j.chappell; November 10, 2008 at 08:55 PM.
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Old November 10, 2008, 09:18 PM   #5
Number19
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I guess I'm a little confused. I purchased mine today from Whittakerguns. I linked to the site in my post at 7:16 PM. In case there is confusion over models, the "ultra lux" refers to the CZ 452 Lux with the 28.6 inch barrel. The standard "lux" has a 24.8" barrel.
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Old November 10, 2008, 09:59 PM   #6
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The CZ 452 Ultra-Lux is the most accurate gun I have EVER shot using iron sights. I was pegging diet-coke cans at 100 yards on every shot without a scope of any kind--I never missed. I took out a moving squirrel with a head-shot from 65-70 yards away and never had to rack my bolt for a second shot.

The reason this gun is so accurate with iron sights is because of it's long barrel. A 28.6" barrel isn't optimal if you're looking for maximum velocity using the .22lr cartridge. But, if you plan to stick with iron sites, that long barrel gives you a massively long sight radius which makes you (the shooter) much more accurate. Now if you scope it, it's just as accurate as a rifle with a shorter barrel.

But I love those mauser style sights, and I like the challenge that iron sights bring.

I'll never get rid of my Ultra-Lux.
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Old November 10, 2008, 10:12 PM   #7
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So you are simply speaking of the Lux with a 28" barrel instead of a 24" barrel. I've never seen it posted anywhere as an Ultra Lux. Even their sites simply refer to it as a Lux. Now I understand. I thought there was a model that I was not aware of.

J.
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Old November 10, 2008, 10:17 PM   #8
Number19
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What shell were you using for this shooting?

I guess I'm a bit quirky, but I consider stand up shooting with open sights to be the classic challenge in shooting - directly descended from our ancestors with their Pennsylvania and Kentucky long rifles. The marksmanship of Crockett and Boone is legendary.

I've been looking for a .22 of this quality since shooting, as a kid, an old, long barreled, Remington .22 squirrel gun my Grandfather used. My Uncle inherited that rifle and passed it down to my cousin. This rifle will be superior.

Last edited by Number19; November 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM.
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Old November 10, 2008, 10:25 PM   #9
brockgl
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j.chappell : There actually is a model named Ultra Lux. Google it and you'll learn all about the Ultra Lux and it's special history. The Lux doesn't come in a 28.6" barrel, only the Ultra Lux.



For info check this thread: http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/sho...ight=ultra+lux

Number19: I was using the American Eagle .22lr cartridges (I believe they are made by Federal). I have never gottan a single dud while shooting through bricks of American Eagle. Very good stuff for a great price.

Last edited by brockgl; November 10, 2008 at 10:30 PM.
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Old November 10, 2008, 10:50 PM   #10
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Thanks. I've got the Federal American Eagle, Copper-plated HP, 38 grams, 1280 fps muzzle velocity, 1019 fps at 100 yds, on my short list that I'll be trying, to start off. It fits right in with my discussion above.
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Old November 10, 2008, 11:24 PM   #11
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That box says "Barrel 24" does the Ultra Lux come in a 24" barrel too or was that a generic bax they used to package multiple models.

Where can I get one as I have never heard of or seen an Ultra Lux. I have a 452 FS that I love, I'd be interested in where to actually purchase one.

Thanks for the info guys, I'm going to check out that link now.

J.
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Old November 10, 2008, 11:41 PM   #12
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http://www.whittakerguns.com/ Try this link. Over on the left hand side, select NEW RIM FIRES. What comes up next on my screen are CZ models. The first one on the list is "00080" CZ Ultra Lux. Let me know if it works
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Old November 10, 2008, 11:46 PM   #13
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Thanks!

J.
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Old November 11, 2008, 05:25 PM   #14
brockgl
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I bought mine at Ludco Gun Shop in Parker City, Indiana. I didn't notice that 24" on the sticker picture. That picture isn't mind, I threw mine away a long time ago. I got that pic from rimfirecentral.com
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Old November 11, 2008, 05:28 PM   #15
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I just figured it was a recycled box cause you can see a product sticker under the current one, see it?

J.
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Old November 11, 2008, 05:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
there isn't a single .22 bullet which stays super sonic out to 100 yds
I assume you mean rim fire. The stingers are purdy fast. I'd imagine they come close to supersonic at 100 yards.

I wish I had an answer for how much de-acceleration is caused with the extra length barrel. I'd be interested in the long barrel from a sound standpoint, but the loss of fps could be a deal breaker.

I lament the stupid sound reduction tax that comes with a suppressor. Whoever came up with that idea has watched too many 007 movies.
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:23 PM   #17
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CCI Stinger was a toss-up; I mean the numbers came so close :

HP 32 gram, 1640 FPS muzzle velocity, 1124 fps at 100yds.

But technically, the sound barrier at 68 deg is 1125. With temperatures more commonly in the 70's,80's and 90's where I shoot, I figured the bullet would be dropping through the barrier a gnat's hair before impacting the target.

This really gets complicated when you start over-analyzing - the real test is in the shooting - but I read today that some newer powders - I don't know which brands or which loads - are slower burning to take advantage of more barrel length.

But, for me, I'm looking to start off with the 40 gram bullet, or the 38, just below super-sonic at the muzzle and as close to 1000 FPS at 100yds as possible. That's why the effect of barrel length on velocity is of such interest to me.

What can you tell me about the use of "suppressors" in the States. I just assumed they were flat out illegal at the Federal level?
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:26 PM   #18
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What can you tell me about the use of "suppressors" in the States. I just assumed they were flat out illegal at the Federal level?
Not illegal. The question is best asked in the NFA forum as I haven't gone through the process of getting one (nor is it likely I will with the stupid tax).

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...isplay.php?f=4
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Old November 11, 2008, 10:14 PM   #19
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My friend has a bunch of suppressors on handguns. In Indiana each suppressor has to be registered and a $200 tax stamp paid for each suppressor not including the cost of the suppressor itself. Not really all that hard to get, just have to have a bit of extra cash.


Now when Obama gets his way...
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Old November 14, 2008, 08:46 AM   #20
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Found some additional information relating to "long barrel" shooting, from the Dec 2002 issue of Gun Magazine. First, the CCI Velocitor is one of the bullets using a longer-burning powder, designed for a 24" barrel length.

The numbers for this cartridge were taken indoors at 70 degrees from a 24" barrel and produced a muzzle velocity of 1435 fps.

The writer was shooting from a 28" long barrel at 60 degrees. The velocity difference between the two temperatures will account for 12 fps, but the longer barrel produced a muzzle velocity of 1409 fps, leaving 14 fps accounted for by the extra 4" of barrel length.

Extrapolating from this, I guessing that you could typically expect to lose at least 30 fps from the 28" barrel, using standard velocity power.

I had verification from Whittaker's that my purchase had been shipped early Wednesday morning and should be delivered on Friday. Unfortunately, my dealer will be closed for a gun show - so early next week.

I have to give Whittakerguns "five stars" for their excellent service.
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