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Old November 7, 2008, 05:04 PM   #1
SPUSCG
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stopping power statistics

i heard theyre a load of crap. Where can i find realistic data on a wide range of calibers?
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:21 PM   #2
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It's not that they are a load of crap, it is that many folks misuse them and more folks don't understand them. And there are many differnt versions from different folks. What would you consider to be "realistic data?" What are you wanting to look at/for?
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:22 PM   #3
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Oh, sure ... just throw a can of gasoline and a lighted match into the forum, whydontcha??!

Guess I'd better do the moderator-ish thing here and note right up front that this particular topic tends to be ... incendiary. It's always an interesting discussion, though, and I'll be grateful if everyone plays nice.

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Old November 7, 2008, 05:33 PM   #4
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i was wondering if people have suggestions on ggod data, like a chart that shows a lotof calibers, and %stop power. i see too many "9v45v357" stuff leaving out .22, .223, 308, 40sw, .380,ect. btw pax, i heard you moderate at THR, um, i was kicked off.............
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:46 PM   #5
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just watch the front sight and the rest will take care of itself
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:50 PM   #6
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steveno

+1
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:52 PM   #7
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I assume you're referring to the Marshall/Sanow figures. As Pax noted these studies are widely debated with some taking them as gospel and others claiming that Marshall and Sanow "cooked the books" and discounting them altogether (these people typically subscribe to the work of Martin Fackler). The best approach is, as usual, somewhere in between. It is true that there are statistical errors than can skew the results, they are typically most evident and significant when looking at calibers or loadings that have a very small amount of data (examples would include calibers such as 7.62x25 Tokarev or loadings like Glasers) as well as factors such as shot placement and psychological effect that aren't taken into account. When looking at comon calibers with popular loads, we can probably draw some generalizations. For example, a .357 Magnum loaded with Federal 357B (125grn semi-jacketed hollowpoint at 1450fps) rates a 96% one-shot-stop. Does this literally mean that that particular loading will stop 96 out of 100 attackers with one shot? Absolutely not as there are too many other factors that play into the equation. However, it's probably safe to say that a revolver loaded with this ammunition is very good as far as handguns go as this was a very popular loading among police and thusly there was a great amount of data to base this percentage on. In general, I look at any common caliber and popular loading rated above 75% by Marshall/Sanow as "good" and leave the debate about effectiveness among them to other factors.
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Old November 7, 2008, 07:47 PM   #8
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+1pax!

ANY round can be a stopper and ANY round can be ineffectual. It depends so much on so many things, such as the weapon used, bullet weight and design, powder load, clothing worn by the shootee, angle at which the shot hits, where the shot hits, whether it's cloudy or sunny; and I can go on and on.

Suffice to say, if you're considering different calibers for a carry piece, think on this...

Any modern JHP in most common calibers will do the job. As Mas Ayoob says, "It's not the last shot that counts, it's the first." Shot placement is EVERYTHING.

When you find a gun that fits your hand like a glove, is accurate with your skill, is reliable, and is concealable - THAT'S the gun you want to carry, whether it's a .32 ACP Mousegun or a fire-breathing .454 Casull.
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Old November 7, 2008, 07:47 PM   #9
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And with reference to the Marsall/Sanow study, it's my understanding that it's pretty much the only one based on analysis of actual shootings. So some calibers probably aren't going to be represented because no (or very few) example of real world use were available. And as Webleymkv points out, there are a lot of variables.

In any case, shot placement is most important.
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Old November 7, 2008, 07:53 PM   #10
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To quote Evan Marshall, "The one shot stop is a unit of measurement, not a tactical philosophy".

Shoot to lockback or until you no longer have a target.

You'll know you no longer have a target when you lose sight of the BG and find him on the ground, not moving.
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Old November 7, 2008, 08:00 PM   #11
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A great many of the loads listed in the Stopping Power books no longer exist or have been re-designed.

No one is collecting the results of shootings these days. At least they're not publishing them.

That's not nearly as important as it was in the 80s and 90s. All the major ammo companies have done their R&D work. There are no loads as bad as some of the crap JHP loads with heavy jackets, small hollow points and other "features" that made them ineffective.
\Any premium JHP load in any of the major calibers will do a fine job if placed correctly. Even WWB from WalMart is a good load.
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Old November 7, 2008, 08:40 PM   #12
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There are no 'magic' bullets

Quote:
All the major ammo companies have done their R&D work.
Good posts Japle I agree ammo manufactures have come along way and most all of the premium service( 9 mm-.45 ACP) ammo is very good.

You are also quite correct about the WWB Personal Protection ammo, it does not offer quite the level of performance as the Ranger-T for example, but it is good nonetheless.

The 115 grain 9 mm WWB PP for example is the same bullet as the 115 grain Silver-Tip without the silver coating the 230 grain WWB PP .45 ACP load performs very well. From tests I've seen and my own informal testing, I would not be afraid to use or carry either one of those. I have also read from reliable sources that the WWB Personal Protection 147 grain 9 mm was a good bullet, but I've never tested it.
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Old November 7, 2008, 09:12 PM   #13
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w/regard to "one-shot stop" statistics, I never understood the big deal. The way I see it, anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting 4 or 5 times, so I'm only going to be concerned if my deathray of choice has a poor record for "entire magazine" stops.
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Old November 7, 2008, 11:13 PM   #14
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im wondering if theres any scientific formulas with good reasoning, some calibers (like 9mm) have been used a lot and have good real life testing. something like .41 magnum or 9x57 mauser may not have as much data
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Old November 7, 2008, 11:25 PM   #15
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Ahab,

You'd do well to look at the source data if you're really interested in that question (ummm, not meaning to imply you haven't, no offense intended or implied...). It's interesting stuff.

As Marshall has said many times over the years, the "one shot stop" was simply the standard of comparison they hit upon, one that could be applied across a wide spectrum of data to provide a single common denominator. It wasn't intended to suggest how people should conduct a gunfight, or anything of the sort. It was simply a way to at least slightly narrow down one aspect of a huge array of variables into something less unwieldy. They had to pick a number, and "one" was the easiest and most available number, in part because in multiple-shot incidents, there was often some confusion as to how many shots were actually fired. So "one" was chosen as the number that limited the variables the best for their purposes.

Stepping out of the thread now; not here to defend anyone's work and I'm not a scientist. Just interested in accuracy for the little bits I do vaguely know.

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Old November 7, 2008, 11:31 PM   #16
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I've heard of formulas and endless theories, but what's the point? If load Y under some reasoned theory calculates out to be a superior stopper under certain conditions, it doesn't necessarily mean it will work that well under different conditions or in real life when you actually need it to work.

AFAIK, all of the various attempts to quantify stopping power can do little else but offer some very generalized guidance. And also, AFAIK, they all come up with fairly similar, broad conclusions: e. g., you'll probably have better luck with a 9mm +P JHP than a .38 Sp, 158 grain LRN; in a given caliber, a JHP will usually give more consistently better results than an FMJ; etc. But if you try to get more specific or detailed, the different studies start to contradict each other.
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Old November 7, 2008, 11:57 PM   #17
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Interesting that, based on his own testing, Marshall now carries DPX in every caliber he can get it in.

Except maybe for 9mm, there wasn't (and still isn't) much disagreement over the bullets he recommended. Evan was never a fan of the 147 gr. 9mm, but now acknowledges that the HST 147g. is a good carry round. Times change.
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Old November 8, 2008, 01:14 AM   #18
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Absolutely no cartridge, rifle or pistol, gives a 100% guaranteed 1 shot stop. Mind you, a lot depends on what you want to stop.
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Old November 8, 2008, 01:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir
Absolutely no cartridge, rifle or pistol, gives a 100% guaranteed 1 shot stop....
And there's no magic bullet.
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Old November 8, 2008, 09:14 AM   #20
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What stops attackers?

The way the human body stops trying to hurt you is a very well known fact.

And as we are talking bullets here, any bullet that will reach the vital to movement body parts, brain stem, top few inches of the spine, only sure stopping power. So nothing changes there, placement (and luck!)

The bullet design, velocity, that will cause the most bleeding, not one stop, but when the vessel has lost enough blood to quit. Time you might not have.
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Old November 8, 2008, 09:48 AM   #21
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Stopping power

As a relative new comer, all i can say is here we go again As has been stated many, many times, shot placement #1 Do this and from 22 to 45acp will do the job.
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Old November 8, 2008, 10:04 AM   #22
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1) Every gunshot wound is a unique occurrence.
2) Every gunfight is a unique occurrence.

Anybody who tells you that they have a magical formula that will quantify the effectiveness between different calibers or different loadings in the same caliber is trying to sell you something.

One thing matters with handgun bullets: The ability to put holes in stuff that the bad guy needs to keep un-holed. Carry a load that will do that, and practice to hit the stuff in question, and hope you're having a lucky day when the balloon goes up.
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Old November 8, 2008, 10:25 AM   #23
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There is an interesting thread on this site about Trooper Coates who shot someone 6 times with a 357 Magnum full house rounds and then Trooper Coates was shot with a .22 pistol. The trooper was killed instantly although he was wearing bodyarmor while the guy he shot seemingly walked away.

There are also many stories about Medal of Honor winners who took multiple rifle shots and still having the ability to kill others and ultimately survive.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=43454

I dont believe its caliber that will win the battle and shot placement is difficult when placed in a stressful position. I believe that volume of fire is the key.

If Trooper Coates had a 12-16 shot Glock would he have been able to put the man down? Im certain he would have probably shot the whole clip and I think getting hit by 10 .40s is probably more effective then 6 .357s.

Just my opinion....
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Old November 8, 2008, 10:57 AM   #24
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Quote:
There is an interesting thread on this site about Trooper Coates who shot someone 6 times with a 357 Magnum full house rounds and then Trooper Coates was shot with a .22 pistol. The trooper was killed instantly although he was wearing bodyarmor while the guy he shot seemingly walked away.
You have mischaracterized this event significantly.
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Old November 8, 2008, 11:03 AM   #25
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Didnt Trooper Coates shoot the man with all six shots from his 357 Magnum revolver? Didnt the man return fire with a .22 and kill Trooper Coates? I believe that is enough detail to get the point across about heavier calibers not being effective in all scenarios and lighter calibers being very effective in certain scenarios.
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