The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights > Legal and Political

 
 
Thread Tools
Old August 29, 2001, 09:51 AM   #1
Master Blaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: One of the original 13 Colonies
Posts: 2,027
Why a Concealed carry permit is Almost useless

I have been contemplating getting a state issued concealed carry permit but it seems to me that it might be practically useless and only serve to identify me as breaking one of the many laws which regulate where you can carry:

Here is a typical day for me:

Leave my home and I am 200 feet from a safe School and recreation zone under Delaware law (a park down the street from my house).

CCW permitees are not allowed under Delaware Law to carry within 1000 feet of a safe school and recreation zone.

Drive my two small children to daycare entering a safe school zone, the daycare.

Drive past numerous schools rec fields and churches on my way to work for the department of services for children youth and families, which has the Ferris school, and other youth correctional facilities on the same property. (safe school zone, and a youth prison, and a halfway house for released delinquents).

End of the day reverse course and pick up the kids.

After dinner talke the kids out to play in the park, and the dog for a walk passing within or being in a safe school and rec zone.

I go out for a night on the town with my wife (rare these days) and the law says I cant have one drink (usually a beer) and carry legaly

Having a permit would identify me as carring to the police should I be stopped for speeding, or any other reason.

This would let them know I could be charged for breaking the SSZ law which says within 1000 feet of the property of a school or park.

I think there was a federal case which made the SSZ illegal but Delaware has ignored the ruling and I dont want to be the test case.

I have asked some police officers I came in contact with in the past what the law was and for the most part they dont know the law!!!!.

In De the constitution of the state includes the right to keep and bear arms and it does not mention the militia at all.

I asked several officers if it was ok for me to open carry, which is legal in the state of DE. The answer from 4 officers was no I would be arrested for disturbing the peace, or brandishing.
1 officer said it was ok and he would not arrest me.

It seems that the permit is more of a liability than an asset since it is coupled to my drivers license in the computer.

How do others in the forum deal with these issues?
__________________
The difference between Democrats and Republicans is like the difference between a poop sandwich, and a poop Sandwich with mustard.
Master Blaster is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 09:59 AM   #2
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Many states allow you to keep your weapon in your vehicle in the safe zones as long as you have business there. I cannot say for sure if yours is like that or not though. It is worth looking into.
 
Old August 29, 2001, 10:58 AM   #3
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
 
Join Date: October 10, 1998
Posts: 665
If you are in the position to stop another Columbine, I don't think anyone is going to charge you with carrying concealed, esp with a valid CCW.

Just remember that concealed carry is <b>concealed</b> carry, not "printing so everyone can see" carry.

Obey big laws (like no speeding, no public drunkeness) and don't be a target, and you have nothing to worry about.

Kevin
__________________
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
Owner, BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
spark@onestopknifeshop.com is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 12:05 PM   #4
SpyGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2001
Location: California
Posts: 326
That would make too much sense...

Quote:
If you are in the position to stop another Columbine, I don't think anyone is going to charge you with carrying concealed, esp with a valid CCW.
Don't be so sure. The leftist-controlled government is devoid of logic and common sense.

Case in point:

Recently, in San Francisco, two armed robbers (one with a gun, one with a machete) forced their way into an apartment, taking hostage two men, a woman, and several children. They tied up the women and children and threatened to kill them if the men did not produce large sums of cash (the victims were concert promoters and had a safe on site). Twice during the robbery, the perp with the gun set the gun down; the second time, one of the male victims grabbed the gun. In the end, both perps were shot dead and no victims were injured. But, even though the deaths were declared justified by the police investigating the double homicide, the victim who grabbed the gun away from the perp is in prison. Why? Because he was on parole (I believe for a non-violent drug conviction) and touching the gun (to save himself and the other victims) violated the terms of his parole!

I would not be surprised at all if a lawful gun owner prevented a school massacre (or any other heinous crime against society), only to find himself being prosecuted for violating one of the numerous and confusing (and unconstitutional) gun control laws.
SpyGuy is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 12:11 PM   #5
buzz_knox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,191
In TN, you cannot be charged with unlawful possession of a concealed firearm if said firearm is used in self-defense. This law was enacted to insure that if you had to use it to stop a criminal, no one was going to punish the good guy.
buzz_knox is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 12:37 PM   #6
Jeff Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 1998
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,753
It's a very personal decision.

From my perspective:
[list=1][*]Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 (I should point out that I was first advised of this phrase by ... an LEO, in response to gun ownership, many years ago. Honest LEO's know the score, and while they may be unable to be completely honest with you, they often offer oblique, but clear advice such as this).[*]In AZ, IIRC, you can be on school grounds with a firearm if you have a CCW. [Technically, and ironically, it is illegal to use it on school grounds, even in a self defense situation. More absurdity.][*]While the government may be amoral and illogical, I choose another course for myself. I'm not willing to allow myself, my family and innocent others to be injured or killed because an idiot legislature cannot reason. See #1.[*]While I will likely never need to use my firearm for defense, there are enough examples every day of the use of firearms for self defense that I insist on retaining that right and capability.[*]Frankly, all laws are not created equal. Some firearms laws are not generally enforced, and in time, and through conversation with local attorneys, LEO's and other experts, you may determine which laws are of less consequence. Obviously the difference between felonies and misdemeanors is key in such an analysis.[*]Meet and get to know some good local attorneys ... including criminal defense attorneys. Read about and learn how to properly deal with LEO's ... what you say and how you act will often have a great bearing on the consequences. Haven't read it, but I hear that "You and the Police" is a good book on the subject (please see http://javelinpress.com/you.html ).[/list=1]

In sum, if you can't get past your concerns, and those concerns outweigh the (frankly, for most folks) relatively low likelihood that you'll need to defend yourself and your family, well ... then you should not get a CCW. Obviously, the downside on that decision can be pretty severe.

Tough decision, and it is a da*n shame that good people have to make such lousy, artificial choices between safety and malum prohibitum laws. Good luck.

Regards from AZ
__________________
I refuse to live in a state which fails to recognize my family's fundamental right of self defense. I refuse to give that state my labor, my taxes, or any other support for such an uncivilized and barbaric policy. In other words ... Texas, Yes ... California, No.

Last edited by Jeff Thomas; August 29, 2001 at 08:49 PM.
Jeff Thomas is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 02:31 PM   #7
croyance
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2001
Posts: 3,604
Many, not all, states allow you to conceal carry while dropping kids off at school or day care.

Similiarly, living near a park should be fine. Going for a casual walk is not, but you should be fine in your car coming and going.

I'd rather carry legally than be caught carrying illegally.

Here in Georgia, I cannot even enter a place that serves alcohol. Some are trying to change this. So if I want to go into a place for lunch that happens to serve beer, I either get to disarm in public, carry illegally, or carry off body, leaving my weapon behind.

Your decision, but even with the inconvieniences, I'd rather be carrying legally when the situation allows.
croyance is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 03:26 PM   #8
MADISON
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2000
Location: Roanoke, Virginia
Posts: 2,678
is a CCW permit useless?

The "Bad Guys and Gals" do not bother with permits. They are never prosecuted for carrying a consealed weapon.
When we get our permits, the state government has a list to give to the Federal Government.
MADISON is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 03:47 PM   #9
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 15, 1999
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,558
The "Bad Guys and Gals" do not bother with permits.

TRUE.

They are never prosecuted for carrying a concealed weapon.

FALSE. In Ohio, at least, it is usually a "tacked-on" charge. Most people who get charged with CCW are also charged with other crimes.

Most law-abiding citizens who ignore the unconstitutional law against CCW in Ohio are seldom charged with it because they are seldom caught. As has been said elsewhere: Mind your P's and Q's, don't draw attention to yourself and you'll most likely be left alone by the LEOs.
__________________
-Dave Miller
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection.
Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10
TheBluesMan is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 10:24 PM   #10
Pendragon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2001
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,153
I used to extra-legal carry.

I kept my nose clean, obeyed the traffic laws, kept it CONCEALED and acted normal.

Ask yourself - have you ever seen someone you thought was carrying? Odds are you have - but didnt know it.

It was nerve wracking at first - I looked in the mirror a lot and just went on short trips outside and whatnot.

It did not take long for me to realize that the way I carried myself and the way I looked went a long way towards making people think I was a noraml, respectable person.

I did it at the time because we were young and poor and lived in a very rough area - I was basically carrying all the time I was not at work.

I got pretty good at knowing how I could move and how I should not move how to unobtrusively adjust the BHP in the IWB holster (slightly offset to the strong side)

There were a few times when I was sitting in a restaurant and some cops would come in and sit in the booth right next to us - and completely ignore the young, law abiding couple next to them...

A few times, I went into the bathroom and removed it, wrapped it in my coat (very securely) and took my "coat" out to the car - cant remember the circumstances though.

Also - the most worrysome situation was that someone would bump me and feel it - or that we would meet some friends or family and someone would try to hug me. My close family knew I carried, but some others didnt.

Never had a situation, but it is something that you are aware of 100% you can't ever be comfortable wearing a pistol - especially if it is extra-legal - if you get comfy, you make a mistake.

Once, I took off my coat and it caught the hammer and pulled the gun and holser out and they flopped on the floor right in front of my Mother-in-law - who did not know that I carried until that moment

But she is cool
Pendragon is offline  
Old August 30, 2001, 12:44 AM   #11
Rebeldon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2001
Location: Cowford
Posts: 361
I'm glad I live in Dixie!

If I were you, I'd sue.
__________________
Deo Vindice
Rebeldon is offline  
Old August 30, 2001, 01:34 AM   #12
Ledbetter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2000
Location: California USA
Posts: 4,535
Outrageous Alabama-based 70-post guys run this place these days

Drive around the schools or lock it in your trunk. Don't have the beer. Believe me it's worth it. Talk to the guy that issues them for the sheriff or police chief in your jurisdiction. If a cop runs your license one thing he or she will find out is that you are trusted by the sheriff or police chief in your home town.

Being counted as a CCW holder is now a reality you can't ignore, but it's not necessarily bad.

Regards.
Ledbetter is offline  
Old August 30, 2001, 04:19 AM   #13
AR-10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2001
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,182
I have a CCW permit. In Iowa, the school zone laws are such that driving by or living by a shool is not a problem. Driving up to a school armed may be a problem.

My permit lets me;

buy firearms with no NICS check. Dealers love that.

be recognized and counted by state lawmakers as one more responsible citizen that will raise hell if they pass certain laws.

carry weapons in my vehicle loaded, unloaded, in my range bag with the ammo, as I wish and at my convenience.

go into public armed but not paranoid.

That last one is worth a lot.

I understand the concerns expressed by those that complain about having to get a permit to exercise a right. But I don't think a permit is useless. If there were ten times as many permit holders in any given state it would make it much easier to get the laws passed that we all want.

Check the laws.
Get a permit.
Skip the beer.
AR-10 is offline  
Old August 30, 2001, 05:12 PM   #14
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,073
Bravo, AR-10.
__________________
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
Dave R is offline  
Old August 30, 2001, 07:09 PM   #15
ctdonath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 1999
Posts: 1,902
The problems of various laws making a CCW permit practically useless led me to research and write this. Some things are very legal if you put all the dark pieces together and see where the light shows through...
ctdonath is offline  
Old August 31, 2001, 01:43 PM   #16
Mikul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2000
Posts: 1,396
I once had an off-duty police officer bump into my concealed handgun at a party. It was a crowded place, so I doubt it was deliberate, but she didn't even pause as she went by.
__________________
There are two types of men: those with guns, and those at their mercy.
Mikul is offline  
Old August 31, 2001, 03:56 PM   #17
SpyGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2001
Location: California
Posts: 326
Quote:
I once had an off-duty police officer bump into my concealed handgun at a party. It was a crowded place, so I doubt it was deliberate, but she didn't even pause as she went by.
Hmmm... maybe she thought it was something else?

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
SpyGuy is offline  
Old August 31, 2001, 10:48 PM   #18
Lord Grey Boots
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 1999
Location: Snohomish, WA
Posts: 511
I had an ex cop explain it to me this way.


If you have to shoot an attacker and you DON't have the required permit, they police will ask: "What did you do to him?". If you DO have the required permit, the police will ask "What did he do to you?".

See the difference?
__________________
http://www.geocities.com/gebooth2001
NRA, CCRKBA, GOA, WAC

Sarin Nerve Gas:FOUND Ricin Toxin:FOUND Mustard Gas:FOUND Long Range Rockets:FOUND Nuclear material:FOUND 20 tons of Chemical weapons:FOUND Al-Queda FOUND
Lord Grey Boots is offline  
Old August 31, 2001, 11:14 PM   #19
Jeff Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 1998
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,753
That might be why he was an ex-cop.

The way I hear it, if you have to shoot someone in self defense, they're going to ask what you did to him regardless of the papers in your wallet. And, your response should be ... "I need to speak with my attorney ..."

Regards from AZ
__________________
I refuse to live in a state which fails to recognize my family's fundamental right of self defense. I refuse to give that state my labor, my taxes, or any other support for such an uncivilized and barbaric policy. In other words ... Texas, Yes ... California, No.
Jeff Thomas is offline  
Old September 1, 2001, 07:05 AM   #20
Bud Helms
Staff
 
Join Date: December 31, 1999
Location: Middle Georgia
Posts: 13,005
I decided to be licensed to carry for a lot of obvious reasons, but one was to stand up and be counted. For some of us, by the time you are into your thirties, some gov't dept already has a file on you. So not licensing, so as not to "advertise" to the gov't is shutting the barn door after the horse is out. I recommend to everyone I know, with whom this subject can be rationally discussed, that they become licensed, whether they intend to actually carry or not. Imagine 40% of a state's population licensed to carry! Yeah, well, I said imagine. You get the idea. Oh, yeah, ... and it's "cover" for those of us that actually do carry.
__________________
"The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion." - John Lawton, speaking to the American Association of Broadcast Journalists in 1995
Bud Helms is offline  
Old September 1, 2001, 11:55 AM   #21
ds1973
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Grand Island, NY
Posts: 545
underlying philosophy

The underlying philosophical question we should be answering (as a society) is does man need permission from the state to take responsibility for the defense of his own life. The answer to that is no. There is a philosophical flaw in society today. Too many people believe that man should live for the state and that man is not a soveriegn individual.

I don't know what I'd do in your position. If you get the CCW, it is your responsibility to be aware of the laws and comply with them. Just hope you don't run into that 1 out of ten or five or 50 cop that is raging anti.
__________________
The first step is registration, the second step is confiscation, the final step is subjugation.
ds1973 is offline  
Old November 13, 2013, 04:30 PM   #22
Mal H
Staff
 
Join Date: March 20, 1999
Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia
Posts: 14,537
Updated info for this thread

Member harr2969 has added new information pertaining to the subject of this thread. Please see his new thread here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...94#post5686294
Mal H is offline  
 

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.59453 seconds with 9 queries