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Old November 2, 2008, 11:57 AM   #51
Marty Hayes
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Well, having trained and taught with both Jimmy when he was alive, and still active with Taylor on a bi-yearly basis, I believe I have some comments that folks might find credible. (Then again, this is an Internet forum).

Anyway, it is my belief that Jimmy believed that competition was best used as stress innoculation therapy. Shooting under stress helps the shooter control his emotions, and thus keep clear-headed under fire.

I believe Taylor's feelings are more along the line that today's shooting games do not instill the correct mindset necessary for winning gunfights. I believe Taylor would say that much in the discipline is way overthought, and it is the primary skills that will win the day, along with the mindset to engage immediately and decisively.
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Old November 2, 2008, 12:28 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew tempkin
A good teacher can do wonders.
So when under instruction by a good teacher, would you then agree that having top competitive shooters instruct law enforcement officers on the fundamental skills of shooting is a good thing?
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Old November 2, 2008, 12:31 PM   #53
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If I can jump in here, I don't think it is a bad thing, but it certainly may not be a good thing. Given the cost, would it be better to have the fundamentals taught to most folks by less-gifted but still competent instructors and have the super-shooters teaching the high-speed low-drag types?
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Old November 2, 2008, 12:46 PM   #54
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I think top IPSC or IDPA shooters training law enforcement on the fundamentals of handgun shooting (drawing, reloads, grip, stance, trigger control, techniques for shooting while mobile, shooting mobile targets) is a great thing.

However those top shooters are not tactical wizards or combat ready JUST BECAUSE they are competition shooters. These guys run and gun with the best of 'em but IPSC courses are not real tactical hostage situations or kill'em all scenarios. Some of these guys may be former SWAT or special forces but gaming a course of fire and surviving a home invasion are two different animals.

IDPA is a good tool for making sure you utilize cover/concealment while engaging targets. IPSC is a good tool for thinking on your feet while moving and shooting due to it's freestyle approach.

I hate to bust out the logical fallacies but to say that something is true because no evidence to the contrary exists doesn't make any sense. If you want to prove something is right in the world of statistics you generally try to prove that it's NOT WRONG. Lack of supporting evidence or lack of supporting evidence just means that no one really knows.

Being a good IDPA or IPSC shooter gives an individual an edge in a SD situation in my eyes simply because they have shot a gun while moving under a very mild stress (that stupid buzzer).

But it's no replacement for the mental advice and lessons taught during combative pistol or tactics taught to survive a short range gunfight with one or more attackers where cover may or may not be. Situational awareness is one thing stressed to me during my few training courses and that's one thing that no amount of IPSC or IDPA shooting can replace.

I have been thinking about taking a class from a TX IDPA guru in Greenville, TX to learn tips and tricks about shooting in matches and hope to apply some of that to what I picked up from Tom Givens in my combative pistol class.
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:09 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
If I can jump in here, I don't think it is a bad thing, but it certainly may not be a good thing. Given the cost, would it be better to have the fundamentals taught to most folks by less-gifted but still competent instructors and have the super-shooters teaching the high-speed low-drag types?
I would agree with that, since we do live in a world where cost is an issue - however my point was a disagreement with the assertion that "competitive shooters teaching cops is a bad thing". But I think that Joe Beat Cop stands to gain as much value from learning from Todd Jarrett (for example) as Bob SWAT Operator; it's just that Joe will be learning a completely different skill set than Bob.
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Old November 2, 2008, 03:30 PM   #56
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Quote:
I believe Taylor's feelings are more along the line that today's shooting games do not instill the correct mindset necessary for winning gunfights. I believe Taylor would say that much in the discipline is way overthought, and it is the primary skills that will win the day, along with the mindset to engage immediately and decisively.
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That 'primary skills' comment is downright golden. I've been training cops at all levels for a long time and the folks who require the most correction are the ones who act like they're holding a foreign object, when a gun is in their hands. Revisiting the fundamentals is what fixes that, combined with exposure to the weapon until it becomes an extension of the shooter- instead of an encumbrance.

BTW the only difference between Joe Cop and Bob Swat is their daily field assignment- and it isn't uncommon to have guys assigned to patrol who are also subject to SWAT callout. They have the same problems, which have the same solution: identify the threat and neutralize it before your opponent can cut you, cave your head in or get a shot off at you.

A ricochet will kill you just a surely as a direct hit. You have to be good. The other guy only has to be lucky.
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Old November 2, 2008, 08:22 PM   #57
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NRA--what Dave said.
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Old November 2, 2008, 09:06 PM   #58
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Let us think!

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew tempkin
Dave...true..but I have a problem with the top sport shooters teaching cops.
As I would with Mike Tyson teaching boxing self defense to a 40 year old housewife.
What works for the expert with unlimited time and ammo--not to mention inborn natural talent--will probably not work for the typical Joe/Jane police officer.
Mike Tyson teaching boxing self defense to a 40 year old housewife.

If Mike Tyson could impart a tenth of his aggression. and the same ratio of how to, and were to, hit! The ability to come out of the corner, so to speak, like a mad woman! Come on Mike!
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Old November 2, 2008, 11:12 PM   #59
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Quote:
NRA--what Dave said.
Fair enough, but all things being equal and cost not being an issue, wouldn't you want to have the best of the best training our nation's cops on the fundamentals?
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Old November 2, 2008, 11:19 PM   #60
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The fundamentals are what's important; the delivery is irrelevant so long as the basics are conveyed, retained, and most importantly- practiced until they become second nature.
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Old November 3, 2008, 07:30 AM   #61
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To be honest I would rather have someone who has actually been a LEO teach LEO's.
Same for the military.
Only a peer can apply the basics to what the job entails.
I do not believe that someone who has only competition experience/training should be teaching those who go in harms way.
Just IMHO, which you keep asking for.
Now you have it.
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Old November 3, 2008, 07:49 AM   #62
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Only thing that puzzles me guys is why the DEA, FBI, SS, SEALS, Marines, SF, etc.. actually have such as Letham teach classes and they learn from what the 'games' people show them. Why they might get killed learning all that stuff!

I'm not saying Leatham didn't teach at Quantico, but the only guys I have ever seen teaching FBI and DEA at Quantico were Chuck Taylor and Mas Ayoob.
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Old November 3, 2008, 12:47 PM   #63
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IMHO it all comes back to the "Basics" and "Fundamentals", be it shooting, bullriding or mathematics.

Building a strong foundation of the basics is what is important, IMHO. The other stuff is just "fluff". I'm not going to argue about "fluff".

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Old November 3, 2008, 01:07 PM   #64
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Quote:
Fair enough, but all things being equal and cost not being an issue, wouldn't you want to have the best of the best training our nation's cops on the fundamentals?
Sadly, all things are not equal and cost is an issue, otherwise I'd like to see all of our LEOs go through something like Thunder Ranch, DTI, FAS, LFI, or Gunsite, etc. Of course I'd like to see them go through something like the Bondourant Driving School, have a 4-year degree in English with a minor in Communication Skills, have a black belt in at least on e martial art, and so on!
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Old November 3, 2008, 06:03 PM   #65
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Matt,

A question. I've never seen a real Bio of Applegate. Was he ever in battle himself? I've never seen anything in print but I honestly wonder if he was.
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Old November 3, 2008, 06:14 PM   #66
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He was not in any WW2 combat, except as an observer on a few British Commando raids.
He was also in Korea for awhile, but I never asked him about his combat experience there--or if he ever had any.
He did have a few gunfights during his stint in Mexico ( he once showed me a gun at his home and said, "I could put a few notches on that one")
but I never asked him about the specifics.
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Old November 3, 2008, 09:26 PM   #67
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Matt,

Was any of his gunfights before WW2, when he got involved with the OSS? When was he made an officer in the U.S. Army? Was it a direct commision? Was it before the war?

I've never seen any biograph of him, and at least from what I've seen on the net, everything written about him starts at WW2. What was he before the war?
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Old November 3, 2008, 09:56 PM   #68
matthew temkin
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Deaf...the answers to all your questions can be found here.
http://www.amazon.com/Close-Combat-F...5767327&sr=1-1
No..none of his gunfights were before the war.
I believe he was a Lt. in the National Guard when summoned to Washington D.C. to meet "wild" Bill Donavan--which leads one to wonder how a young man with no background came to the attention of the head of the O.S.S.
Seems as if there is more to this story than meets the eye.
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Old November 3, 2008, 10:17 PM   #69
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"I do not believe that someone who has only competition experience/training should be teaching those who go in harms way."

AMEN!
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Old November 3, 2008, 11:11 PM   #70
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Quote:
Well, having trained and taught with both Jimmy when he was alive, and still active with Taylor on a bi-yearly basis, I believe I have some comments that folks might find credible. (Then again, this is an Internet forum).

Anyway, it is my belief that Jimmy believed that competition was best used as stress innoculation therapy. Shooting under stress helps the shooter control his emotions, and thus keep clear-headed under fire.

I believe Taylor's feelings are more along the line that today's shooting games do not instill the correct mindset necessary for winning gunfights. I believe Taylor would say that much in the discipline is way overthought, and it is the primary skills that will win the day, along with the mindset to engage immediately and decisively.
Marty...good post.

I see nothing wrong with learning marksmanship skills from those in competition however I do not believe that they should be teaching tactics because IMHO they miss the settle but important techniques that go along with knowing when to engage immediately or when to wait for the opportunity to engage which is part of having the mindset to win the day.

Deaf,
Leave it to you to distort the facts in any debate. I was taught the same techniques from my grandfather who was at Pearl, Midway, Tulagi, Guadalcanal, Makin Island, and campaigns in Eastern New Guinea and New Britain before malaria about killed him. This no non-sense type of training instilled a mind and skill set that save my bacon in Iraq. Lets also not forget that in addition to learning from Applegate in person Matt was also taught WWII combatives and shooting techniques by his father who was a Ranger in WWII.
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Old November 4, 2008, 03:37 AM   #71
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He was not in any WW2 combat, except as an observer on a few British Commando raids.

Royal Marine Commandos as an "Observer" Col. Applegate would have been armed, given the opportunity I am sure he would have used any weapon he would have been armed with.

Non combatants would have been no use whatsoever on a Commando raid, typically small unit endeavors, he might not have been issued a knife, just camo cream and a wool cap.

As an aside, the return to Civvy life after the anything goes life of Commando service produced good Cops! and sometimes pretty good crooks!
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Old November 4, 2008, 06:46 AM   #72
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Yes, he was armed on these raids.
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Old November 4, 2008, 10:36 AM   #73
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Who to teach?

Quote:
along with the mindset to engage immediately and decisively
Marty Hayes said the above, I have just stripped that wee bit out of an excellent post. engage immediately and decisively trimming down even more, I endeavored to teach that for 25 years.

And the Jury is still out in my mind, that it can be taught? Seems to me you have it, or you don't! In fine tuning the mechanical ability's, and very good instructors can do that, with the student dressed and armed how they walk out of their homes each day.

Uniformed/Jacket and tie/Florida Shirt, LEO or legal pistol carrying individual heading out on a day that your training will have them returning back home safe and sound at the end of that day.

And even a good Instructor can only point-direct a person, there is no magic taught in an hour formula. And here is where the top sports shooters shine!
They can teach the correct basics! Sorry everybody... the dry fire from all duty dress, all business dress, all old guy sport shirt dress, the trimming of time consuming movements, the very basic first and final grip (DEATH GRIP!) on that Glock 19? sorry could not help touting my most favorite pistol in the world! They can point you at the "how too!" it is up to your street smarts, your learned on the job (whatever it is) street smarts, as to "the when!"

The student has to work! No pain no gain. Dry fire is the way to fine tune the presentation of a pistol, you have to do it. It costs nothing, and is worth it's weight in gold.
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Old November 4, 2008, 05:25 PM   #74
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Chuck Taylor is right on the money with this. I agree with him 100%. That being said, competition does have value so long as you do not engrain bad habits. Cirillo talks alot about this in his book, ...Tales of a Modern Day Gunfighter. Although a fan of competition, he decried some of the stupid crap that takes place in competitions that do nothing but mentally program people to do equally stupid crap in a real gunfight.
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Old November 4, 2008, 10:05 PM   #75
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Quote:
Deaf,
Leave it to you to distort the facts in any debate. I was taught the same techniques from my grandfather who was at Pearl, Midway, Tulagi, Guadalcanal, Makin Island, and campaigns in Eastern New Guinea and New Britain before malaria about killed him. This no non-sense type of training instilled a mind and skill set that save my bacon in Iraq. Lets also not forget that in addition to learning from Applegate in person Matt was also taught WWII combatives and shooting techniques by his father who was a Ranger in WWII.
What's distorted 7677?

Applegate, I really suspect, was never in combat before WW2. That is not a disparaging remark about him if it's true. I have no doubt in the National Guard he was very vocal on how he felt about training and had studied such as Fairbrain and Sykes. Donovan, of the OSS, had his name passed to him and he liked what he saw. Considering the stringent time limit imposed Applegate's methods were the best around. There was no time for formal long time marksmanship nor ring time for H2H. I honesly feel Fairbrain and Applegate had the best system for the situations handed to them.

Now the reason I brought up Applegates combat experience was to point to Matt that the one teaching the methods to recuits basicly had no combat experience. Yes they had learned from those who did have such experence, but themselves they had none.

The military today, and police, do bring in top 'game' shooters now and then. They keep an open mind and use their experience to 'pick what is usefull', to paraphrase Bruce Lee, and 'discard what is useless' from what the top shooters show as for technique and teaching methods.

And I'm all for that.
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