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Old November 1, 2008, 04:11 AM   #26
nate45
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The meaning isn't clear, and your version of it can certainly be valid, but the "ego driven" phrasing seems to me to be referring to that "let's use the game technique to win even though that technique could get you killed in an actual gunfight" mentality.
My 'ego' isn't driving the phrasing of my questions, Taylors statement is.

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...Competition shooting allows the participant to examine the course of fire, determine how best to deal with it and even practice it in advance until he feels he has reached an acceptable efficiency level.....In combat the opposite is true, which is why for well over 100 years, competition shooting techniques have always failed to save lives when applied to life and death situations.
For well over a hundred years 'competition shooting techniques' have always failed when applied to life or death situations?

Exactly which 'techniques' failed and why? I would agree with you that it is ambiguous, except for the 'always failed' qualifier. How could anyone possibly even know that with any sort of reasonable certainty? Sounds like overblown BS delivered while trying to make a point, probably that his 'real' life combat instruction is superior to everybody else's, but I'll reserve judgment till more facts are available.
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Old November 1, 2008, 04:22 AM   #27
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The Positives

IDPA is a sport, with realistic guns, the positives from that sport are, lots of concealed draws, with a gun you carry (me) Milli second recognition of a not so good hit (from the trigger release, not from the visual hit) and the adding of an other shot. Trigger control is the most important part of sport/bullseye shooting, it is also kinda important when trying to punch someones ticket who has got his stolen gun out his clothing, pointed it at you, but it did not fire! not the time to loose that trigger control the firing of a few thousand rounds a year, in somewhat simulated stress has given you.

Having sport shooters, really good ones, teaching LEOs has some down sides, one, in my opinion, is the new shooting grip, weak hand thumb extended forward, onto the frame (more skin on gun, better control) try it on a Magnum Revolver! the gases from the cylinder burn! if some one gets his paws on your pistol? that hold is not as secure in holding on to your weapon. The old thumb turned down strong hand and other paw wrapped tight around that primary hand is a "try to yank this away from me" winner in a knock down drag and bite contest.

In monitoring a class taught by two brothers, sport shooters, to promote a pop up and down plate machine (good piece of kit) at an ATC, I had to step in and stop the comment "that shot is no good!" called on a young Police Officer, this was a two inch below the 8" head plate shot, a hit on the support bar, "Hold it!" said I, "this is a ten yard shot, because of splash back risks, even with your nice wrap around Oakley's" " confrontation with your friendly drug dealer in the parking lot of the after hours Club, that hit would have took out his Adams apple, and spine, a good thing!"

The shot missed a plate, yes, but not a bad shot in real terms. So trigger control, trigger control, trigger control. I was thanked later by the vendor, he had his eyes opened a bit, slowing down too much to get that hit, well that might not be a good thing sometimes.
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Old November 1, 2008, 07:09 AM   #28
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Yes, Deaf..Cirillo used his front sight to win his first stakeout gunfight.
Why not, since he had the time, distance and the cover to do so.
Why do so many see this as an either or thing?
Cirillo was a firm believer in BOTH point and aimed fire, as he states here in his last book..
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=313871
Cirillo was a beat cop first who had one shooting before going to the stakeout squad.
And yes, he sang the praises of competition--even though he once angered Farnam by not "playing by the rules"
when going through John's new Dueletron.
Of course Jimmy also felt that big game hunting was important for a warrior--something that may or may not be true as well.
Lastly, what the squad did was not typical police gun fighting but more akin to ambushing.
Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but the tactics for the proactive may not always work for the reactive.
Hey Deaf, how come you never mention that Cirillo--in fact no one else but Chapman--was ever able to duplicate in competition what he had done for real that day in the bodega?
Funny, no?
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Old November 1, 2008, 07:53 AM   #29
Deaf Smith
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Hey Deaf, how come you never mention that Cirillo--in fact no one else but Chapman--was ever able to duplicate in competition what he had done for real that day in the bodega?
Actually what Cirillo said was he never has been able to duplicate the speed he did to shoot those three. Nothing about competition was mentioned. Of course he didn't play by the rules (I think he went behind the targets to supprise them.) Notice he did that just one time....

And yes he sang the praise of competition, hunting, family life, reloading/gun tinkering, and other things he felt made you more competitent and mature. He didnt' believe it? Hmmm. You must have a real good ouija board Matt.

Sure he shot faster. When you are jacked up with adrenalin it's very common to go faster than you have ever gone. You didn't know that? With all that FOF you do that has never been discovered Matt?

We see that all the time in martial arts sparring compeitition. People doing things faster then they ever did in practice (and even doing things they never even did in practice!) Even in IDPA I've made speed head shots at 20 yards that I would have thought with impossible times and have never been able to do it on a range.

You need more FOF Matt or something.
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Old November 1, 2008, 09:36 AM   #30
matthew temkin
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I don't need more FOF Deaf.
I have been involved in dozens of armed and unarmed encounters ( mainly unarmed) throughout 20 years as an on duty court officer, off duty CO and 10 years moonlighting second security jobs during NYC's bad old, pre -Gualini days.( 1979-1989)
The fact that I never had to fire a shot in anger--but I came very close more times than I care to admit--is due to the necessary mental/awareness attitude that my old man drummed into me.
Something which is sorely lacking in any sporting event.
In other words, I was never taken by surprise
To be frank I found martial arts competition making me do dumb things when actually fighting/controlling bad guys for real, which is why I gave up classical ju jitsu/karate soon after coming on the job.
Sounds as if it is you who needs some real world experience on which to base your opinions.

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Old November 1, 2008, 10:39 AM   #31
David Armstrong
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My 'ego' isn't driving the phrasing of my questions, Taylors statement is.
The "ego-driven" phrasing is used by Taylor to describe the problem with some competition issues.
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Old November 1, 2008, 10:43 AM   #32
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Sounds as if it is you who needs some real world experience on which to base your opinions.
Well said. It seems as if the gun world is one of the few human endeavors where those with limited (or none) experience think that reading a book or watching a TV show gives them the same knowledge base as those who have been doing it for real for years.
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Old November 1, 2008, 10:49 AM   #33
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"the primary motivator of all forms of competition, can quite literally get you killed."

He is right of course.
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Old November 1, 2008, 11:43 AM   #34
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It seems as if the gun world is one of the few human endeavors where those with limited (or none) experience think that reading a book or watching a TV show gives them the same knowledge base as those who have been doing it for real for years.
Who decides who falls into what category?
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Old November 1, 2008, 12:43 PM   #35
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Who decides who falls into what category?
Seems it should be somewhat self-sorting on a continuum. While each person can then decide what terminology to use at which level the difference between the levels should be obvious in a comparative fashion.
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Old November 1, 2008, 12:47 PM   #36
matthew temkin
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Well put, Dave.
My best friend is a NYPD LT. with 27 years on the job.
He once joked that police work is the only occupation where those who have never done it feel that they have something to offer to those who do it every day.
I feel the same way about those with only a competition background who feel superior to those with real world armed combat experience.
I suppose it all boils down to just who's opinions we are going to trust our lives to.
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Old November 1, 2008, 01:02 PM   #37
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I don't object to the gamers feeling superior about the games. I think the top-level gamers like Leatham, Enos, and for that matter probably any high-level qualified shooter in any discipline, can certainly teach a lot about shooting, and they are better at that than most anybody else. I do object to a gamer trying to justify a fighting tactic to someone who has been in multiple gunfights, or whose actual FoF scenario time can be measured in hours, or who has spent months kicking in doors and chasing badguys for real whether it be in NC or Fallujah, who knows better.
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Old November 1, 2008, 01:06 PM   #38
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Except!

Matt,

With the shoe on the other foot, Police Officers do not need weapon training, why would they, they know it all!

A trick I have played, the holstered pistol on the duty belt, you see the snap slipped off! Whilst chatting, slip it back on!

On the shoot command, the holster ends up under the armpit.

I do much better teaching teams, or team Instructors. Talk for a while, see what the want, help them with it, sometimes they want to know about mundane things (to us) like checking the Pistol, or talks about ammo; some Officers know what a full round looks like, and a empty one! But no idea how it works.
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Old November 1, 2008, 01:07 PM   #39
matthew temkin
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Dave...true..but I have a problem with the top sport shooters teaching cops.
As I would with Mike Tyson teaching boxing self defense to a 40 year old housewife.
What works for the expert with unlimited time and ammo--not to mention inborn natural talent--will probably not work for the typical Joe/Jane police officer.
Britt...I fully agree.

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Old November 1, 2008, 03:07 PM   #40
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I don't need more FOF Deaf.
But still Matt, you didn't know people can and do move much faster in a confrontation than in training. That means you are missing something in all your 'experience'.

Next thing you are going to tell me is you didn't know people in emergencies show exceptional strength. Strength they could never duplicate on the range.
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Old November 1, 2008, 03:47 PM   #41
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But still Matt, you didn't know people can and do move much faster in a confrontation than in training.
Now Deaf, you're making things up again. Let's look at what Matt really said: "Hey Deaf, how come you never mention that Cirillo--in fact no one else but Chapman--was ever able to duplicate in competition what he had done for real that day in the bodega?"
How you can stretch that into "you didn't know people can and do move much faster in a confrontation than in training" is such a strange leap of illogic, and one that you do so often, that it is nothing short of astounding.
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Old November 1, 2008, 04:06 PM   #42
matthew temkin
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Deaf..thank goodness some gamer--probably with a smug smirk of self importance-- did not tell Cirillo that what he with his life on the line is not possible because it can't work in competition.
Which was my original point.
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Old November 1, 2008, 06:15 PM   #43
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Now Deaf, you're making things up again.
Now david... surely you didn't miss the question right before my statement in the post above that? Or do you even read all the post before pounding something out? The one where I said, 'You didn't know that?". And notice Matt never said he was aware if it after that. So one presumes he didn't. Instead he went into why he didn't do traditional martial arts anymore.

And Matt, where and when has any 'gamer' ever said "if it does not work in competition it cannot work the street?" You have any specific person in mind? Rob, Enos, Matt Burkett, Miculk, er... anybody? Or is this you saying some 'gamer' saying...
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Old November 1, 2008, 06:30 PM   #44
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i know that competition shooting wont help me out in a real gunfight...


that's why i play paintball :P

self defense is serious business, and that's why people who are serious about self defense play paintball
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Old November 1, 2008, 07:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by matthew tempkin
Dave...true..but I have a problem with the top sport shooters teaching cops.
As I would with Mike Tyson teaching boxing self defense to a 40 year old housewife.
What works for the expert with unlimited time and ammo--not to mention inborn natural talent--will probably not work for the typical Joe/Jane police officer.
See, this is where we disagree, because I know for a fact that the top pros are more than capable of imparting some of their basic skill sets to both cops and armed citizens. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Things like drawing, proper grip, shooting on the move, engaging multiple targets, and reloading in a big damn hurry are all skills that the top pros have in spades, and skills that your average beat cop and armed citizen would definitely be better off for having. That's specifically why law enforcement agencies pay top dollar to have guys like Todd Jarrett and Robbie Leatham teach their cops those very fundamentals. No, those cops are not going to win an IDPA championship, or an IPSC world title, and they shouldn't be - but they are certainly going to be better prepared to execute the fundamental shooting skills necessary to win in a violent encounter.
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Old November 2, 2008, 12:18 AM   #46
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Deaf..I am well aware that under stress people can do amazing things.
I am also aware that the sky is blue.
NRAHab...to some extent I will agree with you.
However, the typical shooter will realize that there is no way in heck they could ever emulate such an instructor and it could lead to a lack of self confidence.
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:00 AM   #47
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Chuck has definitely 'been and done' and he is a hell of a good shot. He didn't get that way by shoving the gun out front and just yanking the trigger as fast as he could. Taylor has a series of drills that involve speed and not inconsiderable marksmanship; presumably, one must 'compete' against the clock and the scoring rings if one is to achieve high ranking by his standards.

Chuck was a prolific writer in years past. I have a little trouble finishing his articles, mostly because he comes across as arrogant and pretty dogmatic in his recommendations. I respect the fact that he's been in a few scrapes but the fact is that current events have supplied us with 19-20 year old kids who've been in more gunfights than this old dog ever hopes to see.

Gunsmoke eventually wafts away and all you are left with is the lessons you took from the experience. Sorting through these collective 'lessons', in search of relevant data, seems to be the real question.
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Old November 2, 2008, 02:14 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by matt tempkin
NRAHab...to some extent I will agree with you.
However, the typical shooter will realize that there is no way in heck they could ever emulate such an instructor and it could lead to a lack of self confidence.
See, I don't buy that. I was in a three day class with Todd Jarrett, where the skill level of the attendees varied from experienced competition shooters all the way down to guys who all they had ever done was plink on the range. Not a single one of them got discouraged, primarily because Todd was such an excellent teacher - the people at low skill levels were encouraged because they were able to see their accuracy and speed improve because they listened, and the people at higher skill levels were engaged because they were able to sharpen existing skills.

So, I would only agree with you if the instructor/top level pro who is running the class is a poor teacher, because then the newbies would discouraged. However, a good teacher is going to be able to effectively impart his or her skills without discouraging newbies. It's just like the self-defense classes that Kay Miculek (Jerry's wife) teaches. Of course the women who take these class aren't going to win an IPSC championship, but none of them expect to. Kay is such a good teacher that she can work with even the worst student and keep them engaged in the class.
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Old November 2, 2008, 07:24 AM   #49
matthew temkin
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A good teacher can do wonders.
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Old November 2, 2008, 11:48 AM   #50
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Now david... surely you didn't miss the question right before my statement in the post above that? Or do you even read all the post before pounding something out? The one where I said, 'You didn't know that?"
No, I didn't miss a thing, deaf.
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And notice Matt never said he was aware if it after that. So one presumes he didn't.
So we see that once again, rather than deal with facts, you "presume" something negative and then treat it as a fact. Thank you for proving my case.
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