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Old November 11, 2008, 08:24 AM   #26
Jim Watson
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The rotating barrel has been on the market since about 1908. It has certainly worked well enough for several armies on reliability and durability, but has not had the acceptance and development of the Browning pattern guns, with the weight of Colt and FN behind them.

As to accuracy, perhaps one of you Cougar fans could try out at Camp Perry and let us know how it works out.
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Old November 11, 2008, 09:03 AM   #27
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Quote:
A purely opinionated...subjective coment. I'd bet money that my stock 9mm cougar could out perform any stock 1911.
You would lose that bet. Ever heard of "stock" guns made by Les Baer, Wilson Combat, SA Custom (the Professional is a "stock" gun). Even the TRP will shoot tiny little groups and you can't get any more stock than that.

Quote:
It sure out shot my government model.
No, what you mean to say is you shoot your Cougar better than you can shoot a 1911 - HUGE difference.

Quote:
A properly made 1911? Really. Perhaps that is why you had to spend so much money augumenting it...correct?
Apparently you don't know much about the 1911 market. Yes, "properly made". That means from a company that knows how to make 1911's vs. some fly by night operation in SE Asia that's slapping parts together. There is a big difference between a Charles Daley and a SA TRP, Colt, Dan Wesson or even S&W. You need to learn something about 1911's.

Quote:
Sheesh. Stock 1911 pistols are crap. That is why so many of you have to have it gunsmithed and customized. Few own/keep/operate a stock 1911 for that very reason. I spent 22 years in the Army and the best thing that Uncle Sam ever did was replace that paper weight. Flame on.
So your only real experience with 1911's are those made from 1911 to 1945?

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear how many Cougars win bullseye matches.
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Old November 11, 2008, 09:46 AM   #28
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I'll admit to some curiosity regarding that rebadged Slovakian Grand Power that's finally in stock at Dawson and presumably a boatload of other dealers.

It's intriguing in a "what is that thing!?" sort of way.
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Old November 11, 2008, 10:25 AM   #29
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STI's GP6 thing-a-ma-jig? Yeah... interesting from the standpoint I've never seen one before, but ugly as sin.


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Old November 11, 2008, 11:04 AM   #30
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I used to think my matt black VIP was ugly but after seeing the GP-6 I've uprated the VIP to merely "plain".

I've never had a PX-4 apart so the descriptions I've found on how the GP-6 differs from one are lost on me.

I don't have any knowledge on the trade-offs associated with tilt vs rotating barrel but I'd speculate that the legion of folks making 1911s and the additional legions tuning them might cloud any "versus" analysis. There's not a lot of places one could send their spin-barrel for a Camp Perry tune-up.

To offer a sorry analogy, tilt-barrel vs rotating reminds me a bit of "small block Chevy" vs. "Wankel rotary". The latter might have some advantages but it had better show up at the party already doing everything you need it to do - you won't find a speed shop specializing in them on every street corner.

I wonder if rotary barrel thing-a-ma-jigs couldn't compete heads-up if they had similar resources behind them. Gross speculation on my part, but that's the beauty of the intertubz - no penalties for uninformed speculation.
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Old November 11, 2008, 11:18 AM   #31
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As I said in an earlier post, I suspect with the proper attention either system could be made to perform quite well. What I'm arguing against is the notion "tilt locking" handguns are inherently inaccurate when compared to the rotary system. This premise simply doesn't hold water. Dawgfvr offers no proof of his outlandish claim other than his claim he can shoot his Cougar better than he can a 1911.
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Old November 11, 2008, 02:00 PM   #32
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The Grand Power leaves me in the awkward position of being extremely curious about how, and how well, it works while instilling no motivation whatsoever to buy one.

Clearly, somebody here needs to snag one and report back.

Looks to me like it needs to be included in an objective "limp wrist" test.
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Old November 11, 2008, 03:27 PM   #33
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I own and use several tilt locking designs including 1911s. I have also owned a Beretta Cougar 8045 and currently own a Beretta PX-4 in 9mm.

Both designs are capable of great mechanical accuracy, and I have never had a problem hitting anything with either at reasonable ranges.

The limitation on a stock Beretta with a rotating barrel versus a decent 1911A1 is in the trigger slop of the DA/SA design. The Italian pistols are simply adequate combat triggers, though the PX-4's is much sweeter than the Cougar's was due to a better transfer bar arrangement.

What I like about the rotating barrel as implemented by Beretta is the fact that the lock up forces are focused into a drop in $50.00 part and that the forces at play are linear wear rather than the up and down pounding of steel on steel. I already have a spare block in the safe though reports are that unlike the "falling" locking block "barrel wedging" lock-up of the M9/92FS, I may never need it due to a lack of pounding upon it.

I have seen 1911A1 pistols with clapped out locking lugs on the barrel, or recesses in the slide, and on more "modern" Browning lock up designs, slide cracks at the ejection port, usually on the narrowest fraction of steel at the forward lower corner down to the slide rail.

Given how the rotating barrel works, as long as the recoil spring is kept reasonably fresh, and the mating surfaces of the barrel and block effectively lubricated, I simply don't see the rotating barrel design as being capable of pounding itself to the point of slide or barrel failure. The rotating barrel system is different to say the least, but it is pretty damn slick in its own right.

Granted, these "wear issues" are all usually high round count concerns, but I'd rather have the easy sub-$100.00 fix if and when the time came.
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Old November 11, 2008, 04:03 PM   #34
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Hmm, I don't know about any accuracy potential advantages of the rotating barrel design. If money flew in the wind I'd love to have a rotating barrel action pistol with a single action trigger with 1911 ergos for a more "apples to apples" comparison.

The defensive nature of the Beretta is apparent with the shorter barrels and subsequently sight radii as well as the traditional DA trigger action will keep it far from 1911s in the accuracy department.

The one thing I see in the rotating barrel design is strength and mitigating recoil.
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Old November 11, 2008, 04:26 PM   #35
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The single action trigger of the GP-6 is rumored to be nice though I can't see it getting anywhere near 1911-alike. That seems to be a point of the one informal review linked from STI's site.

If the thing warms the hearts of USPSA production division folks I could picture people not much caring what it looks like - if the Beretta UGB-25 is any indication, the one extra hit is worth all manner of non-traditional looks.

But, it's all rumor and speculation until the reviews start showing up. They seem to be moving briskly for Dawson.
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Old November 11, 2008, 06:30 PM   #36
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A properly made 1911? Really. Perhaps that is why you had to spend so much money augumenting it...correct? Sheesh. Stock 1911 pistols are crap. That is why so many of you have to have it gunsmithed and customized. Few own/keep/operate a stock 1911 for that very reason. I spent 22 years in the Army and the best thing that Uncle Sam ever did was replace that paper weight. Flame on.
Ha ha ha! You funny GI...Drunk but funny...
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:18 PM   #37
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HA! Somebody's taking care of me:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=319404
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:22 PM   #38
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Well, all I can say is at least dawgfvr posted up front that it was his/her own opinion and cordially invited the flame fest.

I can't help but chuckle and give props....
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Old November 11, 2008, 08:03 PM   #39
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I thought this was an interesting comment from that article:

Quote:
The recoil is soft, but there is a tad bit more muzzle climb compared to other 9mm pistols I've shot, but was certainly manageable.
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Old November 11, 2008, 08:03 PM   #40
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I need a little help here

I have some fixed (P7, Mak) and tilt (Glock, 1911) pistols but no knowledge of rotating barrels. Other than the Stoger Cougar, which I have never held or even remember seeing, what are some others?
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Old November 11, 2008, 08:15 PM   #41
Jart
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Quote:
I have some fixed (P7, Mak) and tilt (Glock, 1911) pistols but no knowledge of rotating barrels. Other than the Stoger Cougar, which I have never held or even remember seeing, what are some others?
I'm sure there are more than the STI / Grand Power but it's the only one I'm familiar with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson
The rotating barrel has been on the market since about 1908.
I have no reason to doubt that, hence I have some Googling (actually I prefer ask.com) ahead of me.

If you find it first, come back and share.
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Old November 11, 2008, 08:17 PM   #42
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Quote:
I thought this was an interesting comment from that article:

Quote:The recoil is soft, but there is a tad bit more muzzle climb compared to other 9mm pistols I've shot, but was certainly manageable.
And there's why gun enthusiasts aren't generally employed as engineers or physicists.

Beats the snot out of me but it is interesting, n'cest pas?
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Old November 11, 2008, 08:23 PM   #43
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It always amazes me how people get so freakin' sideways defending their favorite pistols or design . I think both designs can be more accurate than most of the shooters shooting them. I have 1911's that are very accurate.....and Glocks....and a Stoeger Cougar. To me, it's apples and oranges.

Also, the Stoeger Cougar is NOT a "clone" of the Beretta Cougar. It is the same gun, made on the same machinery as the older Beretta models. They just moved the production facilities to Turkey to minimize costs. All management and supervision is Beretta (and Benelli, Stoeger) personel.
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Old November 11, 2008, 09:56 PM   #44
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Modern Rotating Barrel Pistols:



Beretta 8000 series "Cougar"



Beretta PX-4 "Storm"



MAB P-15 (France)



K-100 Grand Power (Slovakia)




Colt AA 2000
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Old November 30, 2012, 08:55 PM   #45
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What is it?

I'm bringing this one back from the dead. I semi understand the concept of the rotating barrel in the PX4 storm but can anyone enlighten me on how the tilt barrel system works?

Thank you
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Old December 1, 2012, 10:45 AM   #46
Gats Italian
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Google 1911 or Glock animation and watch a video. You'll see how a short recoil Browning style tilt lock up works.
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Old December 1, 2012, 06:23 PM   #47
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In my experience the rotating barrel design is slightly more accuate than the tilt barrel design by the way it helps control recoil forces. Since the barrel stays perfectly in line, muzzle rise tends to be reduced over a moving barrel. The pistol wants to push back rather than to flip up. Both can be very accurate, but side by side I like the rotating barrel designs. I've own various 1911 models & while they can be great shooters, you can get equal shooting pistols for 1/2 the price. As far as rotating barrels go, I've owned one Stoeger Cougar 8000 (9mm), Beretta Cougar 8045, 8040, 8045 mini Cougar, PX4 full size, & PX4 SC, & they all were 100% reliable with every brand and type of ammo I fed them (that's more than I can say about any out of the box 1911). The all metal Cougars had a better feel in my hands than the PX4's though.

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Old December 1, 2012, 06:50 PM   #48
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CaptK6, I'm sure my understanding is very elementary, but I think this is the basic function

Rotating Barrel - at least in the PX4:

Upon firing, the recoil of the slide allows a lug on the locking block to engage a groove in the barrel. As the lug rides the groove, the recoil forces are distributed by a rotation of the barrel, rotating the recoil forces more in a straight line.

Browning-style Tilting Barrel - like most current designs:

Upon firing, for a few millimeters of rearward travel, the barrel remains locked to the slide. This allows the barrel to maintain accuracy until the bullet leaves the barrel, at which point the barrel tilts downward, allowing recoil forces to dissipate.

I think either system can potentially be more accurate than any shooter without a rest.
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Old December 4, 2012, 04:40 PM   #49
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Thanks

Thanks LB and GI. I guess I have been shooting a tilt barrel system and have never known it referred to as that. Thank you very much for the insight and knowledge that I have now acquired.
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Old December 4, 2012, 11:52 PM   #50
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Stock 1911 pistols are crap. That is why so many of you have to have it gunsmithed and customized. Few own/keep/operate a stock 1911 for that very reason. I spent 22 years in the Army and the best thing that Uncle Sam ever did was replace that paper weight. Flame on.
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