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Old November 5, 2008, 12:21 PM   #126
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
...I believe the underlying theory but the performance of a moderately trained GG against an untrained BG...
But we don't know anything about the BG. Some criminals have gotten pretty skillful at what they do. I'm told that criminals practice some of these skills in jail. It's entirely possible that the BG you're looking for knows what he is doing.

When you don't know where the BG is and you go looking for him, he has the advantage and some control over where and how you meet.
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Old November 5, 2008, 12:38 PM   #127
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But we don't know anything about the BG.
I absolutely agree. I would never clear a house unless it was my only option for some reason. My only point was that the success (or failure) of the men in the example was likely skewed by the EXTREME skill level of the "BG". It is unlikely that a real BG would have anything like that skill level. The odds are strongly in favor of the BG in these situations, just not IMO to the degree indicated by that example.


and that's my 1000th post. I'm officially an expert in all things firearms related.
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Old November 5, 2008, 12:52 PM   #128
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Quote:
The odds are strongly in favor of the BG in these situations, just not IMO to the degree indicated by that example.
I would agree if you had added the word "necessarily" or "probably," and I'm sure you would go along with that.

I have been thinking of a perp who has had battle experience in buidings in Basrah or Baghdad or some such... Not to impugn any of our fighting men, but those guys gave been through a lot.

Your thoughts, peetzakilla?

Not that we disagree at all on what to do....
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Old November 5, 2008, 01:11 PM   #129
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Your thoughts, peetzakilla?

Not that we disagree at all on what to do....
I agree. I hate to think that the reputations of the finest men and women in the world would be marred by such scum but it unquestionably happens. Not to mention the myriad of slime balls that make a living doing these things and get to keep gaining experience thanks to our system that lets them out over and over.

In my house I have a HUGE advantage to staying put. All the bedrooms are together on one floor. The area is on the second floor and virtually inaccessible from the lower level thanks to a unique door that is actually a couple stairs up a flight and opens out (toward the bottom of the stairs), making it nearly impossible to kick down. The only other entrance is the main outside door to the second floor which would be very loud to get through and we are on the opposite end of the building meaning the only way to get to me is down a hallway with no doors until my bedroom, a decidedly bad place to be when being shot at. Before anybody got to us I'd have the kids in our room behind the bed with the door shut and blocked, fully loaded 12 ga (soon to be supplemented with a Glock 33) and cops on the phone.
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Old November 5, 2008, 06:37 PM   #130
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Where are all these highly trained/tactical BGs who can beat the best, but who also make enough noise for you to hear? Also, it seems that we keep talking about someone who KNOWS that you are clearing your house. That may not be the case. That being said, when I hear a suspicious noise, I make sure a deadly weapon is close and then wait intently, I'm just arguing devil's advocate. Also, anybody with kids in a separate bedroom (not me), will have to clear at least some of their house (the part between their kids and them).
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Old November 6, 2008, 07:24 AM   #131
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Quote:
Where are all these highly trained/tactical BGs who can beat the best
I think it's a question of what kind of odds you put into your favor.

Needless to say, each house has a different layout. That said, if you don't know where the threat is, and the threat is armed, there is a chance that the threat will know where you are at before you know where the threat is. This kind of siutation can increase the odds that some lead will go flying.

However, same scenerio and you lock yourself into the bedroom, call police and inform anyone in the house that you have a firearm and will shoot anyone who tries to take your posistion, I think you increase the chances that lead won't go flying. Chances are that the threat will just leave the situation.

For myself, personal property is not worth taking the chance that I or my wife could possibly lose our life over. Besides that, anything worth any money is secured in a decent safe.

That said, since I haven't walked a mile in some others shoes, perhaps if I got broken into numerous times, I'd finally get fed up and go after the threat.
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Old November 6, 2008, 10:43 AM   #132
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Quote:
Where are all these highly trained/tactical BGs who can beat the best, but who also make enough noise for you to hear?
Two quick points---First, you don't have to be highly trained to beat the best, because few of us are the best. It takes very little for the defender to beat the person coming to them. Second, tactical training does not negate noise, particularly in an unfamiliar environment.
Quote:
Also, it seems that we keep talking about someone who KNOWS that you are clearing your house.
You start going through your house trying to clear it, with the lights flashing on, doors being opened and closed, etc. it won't take them long to figure it out.

Last edited by David Armstrong; November 6, 2008 at 06:34 PM.
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Old November 6, 2008, 05:55 PM   #133
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Last post for me on this one.

My point is, if I hear a noise, I go and investigate. I may or may not have a firearm depending on the time of day, or if I can distinguish the sound/noise.

I'm not calling the police for every kid, vehicle, strange noise I hear, and locking myself in the bedroom.

Perhaps I am generalizing the word "noise" and others hear are saying a "noise" is "intruder/super ex felon"

Hypothetical example:

If someone knocks on my door at 2:00 AM in the middle of the night, I'm going to get up, grab my pistol and check by use of a window and outside lights who is there. I am NOT going to bunker down, call 911 and wait for the police.

This is only one example, and how I would deal with it.

Done.....Let's talk about the 9mm vs. .45ACP again
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Old November 6, 2008, 06:38 PM   #134
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Quote:
If someone knocks on my door at 2:00 AM in the middle of the night, I'm going to get up, grab my pistol and check by use of a window and outside lights who is there.
Which, IMO, is what most here have suggested. But that is far different from going outside like you think there is a danger, or clearing your house, and some of these other ideas that have been tossed around here.
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Old November 6, 2008, 07:58 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAYBIRD78
...My point is, if I hear a noise, I go and investigate. I may or may not have a firearm depending on the time of day, or if I can distinguish the sound/noise.

I'm not calling the police for every kid, vehicle, strange noise I hear, and locking myself in the bedroom.

Perhaps I am generalizing the word "noise" and others hear are saying a "noise" is "intruder/super ex felon"....
I'm not sure I understand what you're looking for from the rest of us. Endorsement? In any case, it's your home, your family, your life and your call.
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Old November 7, 2008, 12:36 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
You start going through your house trying to clear it, with the lights flashing on, doors being opened and closed, etc. it won't take them long to figure it out.
You're right, I didn't realize that is how a house is cleared. In that case, no one has any business clearing a house. Ever. If I was clearing my house when I was reasonably sure there was a BG in the house (because I am clearing my house, after all), then I wouldn't flash lights or noisily open and close doors. I guess that puts me in the minority. Then again, I wouldn't clear my house.
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Old November 7, 2008, 01:20 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckHammer
... If I was clearing my house when I was reasonably sure there was a BG in the house (because I am clearing my house, after all), then I wouldn't flash lights or noisily open and close doors....
If one chose to clear his house, he could try it without turning on lights or using a flashlight. That may make it harder for the BG to spot you going through the house looking for him, but of course, it also gives the BG more shadows and dark corners to hide in, making it harder for you to see him as well.

And while you may be trying to be as quiet as you can, you will still be making some noise. You will be moving. You will be opening doors. It's a very rare house that doesn't have some place where the floor creaks or some door that doesn't make some noise while being opened, or some door knob that doesn't make some sound while being turned.
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Old November 7, 2008, 08:45 AM   #138
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From Fiddletown:
Quote:
That [not using or turning on a light] may make it harder for the BG to spot you going through the house looking for him, but of course, it also gives the BG more shadows and dark corners to hide in, making it harder for you to see him as well.
Very true. Was the idea that one might fire at something he cannot see? (That's a serious hypothetical question and is not directed at anyone here).

That brings up another thought that I don't think has been discussed here. If the intruder is armed, I think we can reasonably presume him to either flee or shoot without any hesitation upon encountering someone in the house. The resident, on the other hand, has the obligation to first make sure that the person he or she is looking for is not in fact a family member who had gone out and returned, a friend of one of the family whose planned arrival had not been discussed, an inebriated neighbor in the wrong house, someone who found the door ajar and came in to ensure that everyone was OK, or a fireman who had responded to a call.

Identification would require light. Perhaps more importantly, it would seem to me that the difference in the time that each party would need to take before firing would put the resident at an extreme disadvantage when the two meet.

Thoughts?
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Old November 7, 2008, 01:28 PM   #139
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Quote:
...then I wouldn't flash lights or noisily open and close doors.
If you (generic, not specific "you) are not using the lights how do you ID your target? If there is enough ambient light for you to see, there is enough ambient light for him to see, and you are on the wrong end of the curve as the attacker. And you don't have to niosily open and close doors. Gently opening and closing them in a quiet house at night is generall all it takes.
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Then again, I wouldn't clear my house.
Good idea.
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:32 PM   #140
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Quote:
And you don't have to niosily open and close doors. Gently opening and closing them in a quiet house at night is generall all it takes.
Squeaky floors.

Squeaky hinges.

An odd cold draft from the wrong direction.

A change in the smell of the air.

A minor shift in the lighting, or a change in the angle of the shadows.

Fast breathing from someone under stress.

The sound of a man tripping over one of the kids' Legos. (Anyone who's ever walked barefoot through a boy's room late at night hates Legos.)

Lots of possibilities to give you away. Holing up is much much smarter, whenever feasible.

But we've been circling into "is not!" "is TOO!" territory for awhile now. Probably getting close to time to close the thread.

Thoughts?

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Old November 7, 2008, 06:53 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Was the idea that one might fire at something he cannot see?
First of all, it is worth noting that the person clearing has the exact same light conditions as the BG. Second of all, you can wait to turn on a flashlight (highly recommended for clearing a house) until you are near the guy. Even a weak flashlight shine in the face in a dark environment can be very disorientating. Also, do you have no natural night vision? Again, I would like to stress that you are in the same light conditions as the BG. I was just making the point that you don't have to flash your lights or slam doors when you clear a house. There is a big difference between that and shooting blind or not IDing your target. Also, you should be able to tell about where the BG is based on the noise he made/is making (remember that that is the noise that you are in the process of investigating). You are not clumsily wandering around your house hollering around and slamming doors and flashing lights (sounds like the activity of a drunk man ). If you can't tell where the BG is based on noise, wait until you can before you move, although that time may not be available if you are trying to get to your kids. Listen outside a room for a moment before you enter, while watching to make sure he's not sneaking up on you (I don't know, I think that this is fairly basic stuff). I'm not saying that anybody should clear their house when they hear a noise, and I certainly wouldn't, I'm just saying that people with children would have an obligation to clear some of their house (the area between their room and their children's room) in order to get the whole family in one room where it can be easily defended. Just trying to say that it is not impossible, though it is highly risky, to clear rooms for those who have an obligation to.
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Old November 7, 2008, 07:18 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckHammer
...the person clearing has the exact same light conditions as the BG....
Yes, but you care who you're shooting at more than the BG does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckHammer
...you can wait to turn on a flashlight (highly recommended for clearing a house) until you are near the guy....
If you know; but since you're looking for him, he can wait for you so he'll probably see you first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckHammer
...Also, you should be able to tell about where the BG is based on the noise he made/is making...
But you'll be making more noise. You're moving through the house looking for him. But once he notices that you're probably coming after him, now he stays put in a defensible position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckHammer
...You are not clumsily wandering around your house hollering around and slamming doors and flashing lights...
But you're still moving and will be making some noise. See Pax's post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckHammer
...people with children would have an obligation to clear some of their house (the area between their room and their children's room) in order to get the whole family in one room where it can be easily defended....
Absolutely, although I'm not sure much "clearing" is involved. It may depend on the layout of the house. It might be a good idea, if at all possible, to assign sleeping quarter so that in an emergency it would be possible to round up the kids (and guests) quickly without having to travel much through the house. It's also a good idea to have noe or more emergency plans the whole family is familiiar with.
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Old November 7, 2008, 10:12 PM   #143
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From PAX: But we've been circling into "is not!" "is TOO!" territory for awhile now. Probably getting close to time to close the thread. Thoughts?

Some merit to that. But the next parry provided the opportunity for a constructive reply by Fiddletown. Best points, IMHO, being (1) "but you care who you're shooting at more than the BG does" and (2) "once he notices that you're probably coming after him, now he stays put in a defensible position."

Value of continuing? you be the judge.

I'm not sure the ideas are getting across.
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Old November 7, 2008, 10:27 PM   #144
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Quote:
I'm not sure the ideas are getting across.
Of all the threads and thousands of posts I've read on TFL I don't ONCE remember seeing the words "You're right, I changed my mind."
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Old November 8, 2008, 08:53 AM   #145
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From peetzakiller:
Quote:
Of all the threads and thousands of posts I've read on TFL I don't ONCE remember seeing the words "You're right, I changed my mind."
I do. One time.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...1&postcount=55

Had to do with the permissibility of using deadly force.

Rare, though!
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Old November 8, 2008, 11:17 PM   #146
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Whoops, moved to a more pertinent topic. Sorry
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Old November 8, 2008, 11:26 PM   #147
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Gee whiz gang, I step away for a while and we've gone from going outside to check a noise to "clearing the house" indoors.

Since I've had to do this whilst living alone I'll throw my 3-cents worth into the pot. First and most important...

No matter what you do, nothing will go quite to plan.

The townhome I live in has a door to the garage that connects to the house via the short hall to the master bath (I didn't design the damn thing). One night in the wee hours (so called because that's when you need to wee the most) I heard something fall inside the garage. I rolled over in bed, in my BVD's with my machismo running on high, reached over, wrapped my hand around the 1911 and as I move to get out of bed, I realize that my left arm, which I'd been sleeping on, is entirely numb. So much for an icosolese stance. Off balance, with the numb arm, I fling my legs out of bed and.... slammed the 2nd toe of my left foot into the square edge of a chair leg next to the bed! #&%$!!

So now, I'm awake. I suck air, bite my lip and hobble two steps to realize... I'm nearly blind. I can't open my right eyelid because it's stuck to the bottom one. Quickly wipe my eye and I can see. I can see well enough to see both cats curled up on the opposite foot of the bed looking at me like "What the heck are you doin?" I hobble to the door and listen and realize that I'm listening to my heart beating like Gene Krupa playing Sing Sing Sing on his drums. After a couple of slow deep breaths to calm myself, I listen again to... nothing.

Just as I half convince myself I imagined the whole thing and reach for the door knob I hear a small thump and the sound of an empty soda can tipping over on the floor. Mentally I exclaim "Ah-ha! I know exactly where that is! I left that can next to the toolbox!" I turn the door knob, fling the door wide open and snap on the lightswitch to the garage.

Now... I wanted my voice to sound like a mixture of John Wayne and Ward Bond when I shouted "Don't Move! Who's out there?" Instead, what came out sounded more like a frightened Don Knotts going through puberty. Even I wasn't impressed. Fortunately, after about four seconds of scanning the garage two things became apparent. First (and most importantly) the source of the noise became apparent as my 3rd cat timidly stuck his head around the corner of the toolbox and blurted out a questioning "Prrrrilll?" Second was that in my effort to assume a good crouching stance, something was hanging out of my very non-tactical BVD's.

Had this been a real alert, I figure that any bad guy would have dropped to the floor in a fit of hysterical laughter at a wide-eyed, pudgy old guy who resembles Wilford Brimley wearing white boxers with "Mr. Happy" swinging in the breeze and holding a gun.

The moral of this lesson is...
Think before you act. Do not rush into a confrontation before you are ready. If it's a strange noise outside, use every means at your disposal to identify it without going outside. Your goal is to identify if there really is something worth reporting to 9-1-1, not to apprehend someone.
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Old November 9, 2008, 10:55 AM   #148
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BillCA, that's hilarious, have you considered sending that story in to a magazine or something?
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Old November 9, 2008, 11:25 AM   #149
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From BillCA:
Quote:
Your goal is to identify if there really is something worth reporting to 9-1-1, not to apprehend someone.
Excellent advice!

I might add that your two other goals are to avoid getting shot and to avoid shooting the wrong person.

I know from experience the unusual effects of stress in such a situation. Decades ago I heard a violent interchange downstairs. I picked up a Smith Model 39 and went downstairs. From a hidden position, I could see a man kicking a woman on the floor. He than knocked my mother down. That eliminated the threat of a hostage situation and I confronted the man. I ordered him out the front door, threatening to "perforate" him. I did not recognize my own voice!

Turns out the man had been in the woman's car, and she stopped and came to our house for help, entering through an unlocked door.
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Old November 9, 2008, 07:16 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
I might add that your two other goals are to avoid getting shot and to avoid shooting the wrong person.

I know from experience the unusual effects of stress in such a situation. Decades ago I heard a violent interchange downstairs. I picked up a Smith Model 39 and went downstairs. From a hidden position, I could see a man kicking a woman on the floor. He than knocked my mother down. That eliminated the threat of a hostage situation and I confronted the man. I ordered him out the front door, threatening to "perforate" him. I did not recognize my own voice!

Turns out the man had been in the woman's car, and she stopped and came to our house for help, entering through an unlocked door.
Good thing you didn't just sit tight.
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