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Old November 1, 2008, 04:39 PM   #76
DWARREN123
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Basically bad decisions made.
Never let the BG get too close and do not use a firearm that you can not handle properly in a close situation like this.
If you do not shoot when the BG is too close then the firearm can be wrestled away if not properly trained.
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:09 AM   #77
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWARREN123
Never let the BG get too close...
And how would you propose that he do that when he was probably caught by surprise having walked into the BG's ambush. That is the point. When you don't actually know where the BG is (or even if there is one) and you are trying to find him, he has a substantial tactical advantage. You don't know where he is, so he can flank you, ambush you and catch you by surprise. The BG's ability to do that, which you give him by going out and looking for him when you don't know where he is, effectively negates your gun.
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Old November 2, 2008, 04:35 AM   #78
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OK first of all I am technically one of the trained professionals that would deal with a bump in the night or a silent alarm. I have done force on force training where a BG is in a warehouse and you are tasked with investigating it. It was a 50/50 split on the number of times I had a chalk cartridge make contact with my body. I was told that I was better than most at doing it because I took my time and was patient but it was very sobering to say the least. To think that every chaulk mark on me was a bullet that would have made contact with me in a real situation made me uneasy but learning the mistakes I made also made my mind a better tool to avoid that happening for real. EasyG... To ask where are all the men here ...well I for one am a man that would avoid putting myself in a situation outside my home not because I am not brave or beleive in right or wrong but to not put myself in harms way. Outside opposed to inside is a different story. In your own home you should have the tactical advantage by knowing the layout of your home but you cant take that away by rushing into a situation. If you have live stock that get killed by coyotes and the like I understand the need to check things out. The BG is outside... why invite a situation where you might get killed or injured. If you are the main person that will protect your family .... how can you put yourself in a situation to where now you cant do that. You are down ... now your family may be left wide open. I dont believe anyone on this forum is saying bend over and take it and be a molly milktoast. Why invite a situation to happen. If you actively explore that bump in the night you might just do that. Be Smart. OK the thought " Hey someone is taking from me what I have earned", what a TV.... stereo....those are material things... they can be replaced. Protecting your loved ones and yourself from bodily harm is a different story and then GOD help them because he will need to. People that have been in combat or active shooting situations usually try to avoid that at all cost because they learn from their experience. I knew a person in the military who once said to me "I'd rather be Stupid than Scared"... does that kind of thinking make sense.. you decide
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Old November 2, 2008, 12:22 PM   #79
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Striker071,

An excellent post and very sound advice. One thing I'd like you to think about, given your training and experience. I tend to think that the BG has a substantial tactical advantage even inside your house, and I'd appreciate your thoughts after I've explained my reasoning.

While it's true that you know the layout of your house. And while it may help you, you are still the one who is moving and looking for the BG. He can stay relatively still. If he intends to engage you, you will come to him. He just wants to be ready and in a defensible position. Even if he doesn't know your house well, it shouldn't be too difficult for him to identify a position from which he will know your direction of approach. (And if he doesn't want to engage, he knows at least one way out -- the way he came in. Of it's not hard to find the front door. At the same time, I doubt that you'd necessarily want to block his escape. That forces him into an engagement; and with you coming for him, he will generally be able to pick the place.)

So you may gain a little ground inside by your knowledge of the house, but doesn't the advantage still lie with the BG?

What do you think, Striker071?
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Old November 2, 2008, 12:47 PM   #80
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Striker071, I wholeheartedly second Fiddletown's comment: An excellent post and very sound advice.

Wow: a trained expert who is better than most of the experts gets hit 50% percent of the time! That ought to convince most of the skeptics that staying inside is the best strategy!

By the way, from the context, I thought I detected a typo:

Quote:
In your own home you should have the tactical advantage by knowing the layout of your home but you cant take that away by rushing into a situation.
Because of your use of the word "but," I assume that you meant to say that you can take that away...which would at least partialy answer Fiddletown's question.

In any event, I'm convinced by Fiddletown's logic:

Quote:
While ... you know the layout of your house ...and...it may help you, you are still the one who is moving and looking for the BG. He can stay relatively still. If he intends to engage you, you will come to him. He just wants to be ready and in a defensible position. Even if he doesn't know your house well, it shouldn't be too difficult for him to identify a position from which he will know your direction of approach. (And if he doesn't want to engage, he knows at least one way out -- the way he came in. Of it's not hard to find the front door. At the same time, I doubt that you'd necessarily want to block his escape. That forces him into an engagement; and with you coming for him, he will generally be able to pick the place.)
Personally, I would much prefer for the intruder, who most likely does not know my house very well, to have the tactical disadvantage of exposing himself to danger himself while looking for me, while I am ready and in a defensible poition. And I do not want to block his escape.

Your comment?
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:03 PM   #81
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The other thing is, if you live in close proximity to others and you go outside, you don't really know if a neighbor heard/saw the same thing and called the cops; the possibility exists that when you wander outside, the cops may be there, or almost there. You can imagine the scenario that arises from that...
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:14 PM   #82
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Our law enforcement officers are trained, paid and authorized to handle criminal situations. It is only when emergency use of deadly force is necessary and justified that a civilian should resort to it.
+1 on this but........you can wish in one hand and crap in the other, see which one fills up first. I've seen response times in my town (5 minute minimum). You have to protect yourself. I have no problem with clearing my own home. For God's sake, in 5 minutes you may or may not be dead if someone is in your home. Going outside you have a disadvantage in my opinion. Clear your home and assess the situation from inside your home (tactical advantage/your castle). Keep your "toys" in a garage if all possible. Turning on security lights manually or by motion detection can also be a great asset. Be safe.
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:19 PM   #83
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First off, with all the animals we have in the house, it would be hard for someone to "sneak" in without all hell breaking lose (and perhaps I'd then get sued for someone getting a bite taken out of them).

Secondly, we live in the country. Private road to house which you can't see from the road. Someone won't be driving to my house, they'll be taking a little walk.

That said, what my wife is instructed to do if by chance she thinks someone is in the house and I'm not home...

1. Lock the bedroom door.

2. Call the police and tell them that an intruder is in the house and that shots have been discharged, and that she is in the bedroom with a loaded shotgun. Inform the dispatcher that once the police are inside the house to identify themselves to her because the bedroom door is closed and locked and stress again that she is armed.

3. Get the shotgun leaning on the bed, rack slide and take the safety off.

4. Get into the corner of the room and train the shotgun on the door.

5. Holler as loud as she can that she knows someone is in the house, the police have been called and are on their way, and that if they try to enter forcefully into the bedroom that she will blow their f***ing head off.

Pretty much the same routine for myself.

As a civilian and in todays legal ramifications, always let the threat come to you.

Personally, leaving a secure area in the dark not knowing where someone may or may not be increases the odds that you may end up on the short end of the stick.
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:41 PM   #84
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From Jaybird78:
Quote:
You have to protect yourself. . For God's sake, in 5 minutes you may or may not be dead if someone is in your home.
I think most of us agree with that.

Quote:
I have no problem with clearing my own home
You are evidently not aware that the predominant opinion among personal defense experts is that clearing one's home is a very bad idea that would put you and your family in extreme danger and may result in death or injury to an innocent party.

Heyduke describes very well the recommendations of the experts:

Quote:
1. Lock the bedroom door. 2. Call the police and tell them that an intruder is in the house... and that [you are]...in the bedroom with a loaded shotgun. Inform the dispatcher that once the police are inside the house to identify themselves ... because the bedroom door is closed and locked and stress again that [you are] ... armed. 3. Get the shotgun leaning on the bed, rack slide and take the safety off. 4. Get into the corner of the room and train the shotgun on the door. 5. Holler ... that [you know]... someone is in the house, the police have been called and are on their way, and that if they try to enter forcefully into the bedroom that [you]... will [shoot]....always let the threat come to you.
(Emphasis mine)

Realize that his step 1 may be step 2, if you need to first get other family members to a safe place.

Last edited by OldMarksman; November 2, 2008 at 01:43 PM. Reason: typo
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:54 PM   #85
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Jaybird, here's something else in homeclearing that you may find helpful.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...6&postcount=87
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:58 PM   #86
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAYBIRD78
....I have no problem with clearing my own home.....
In that case, I'd have to guess that you have some exceptional training. I'd be curious to know where you received it. Gunsite? Thunder Ranch? Blackwater? I'd like to pursue training of that caliber.
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Old November 2, 2008, 02:11 PM   #87
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I'm sorry if this has already been said (I haven't read the entire 4 pages) but I think many forget that these things aren't always black and white.

There are times you hear a noise that you are 99.99% sure is absolutely nothing and you would otherwise ignore if it weren't for your wife not letting you sleep because she is worried about it. In those cases I go down and take a quick look around just to prove it was nothing. I still take a pistol just in case its the 0.001% chance it was something.

The argument that if the sound requires you to take a pistol you should call the police instead is just as closed minded as people who say there is no reason to carry because you should be avoiding dangerous places anyway.

I have an alarm system and a big dog, so I can be pretty sure if someone has actually entered the house. If either of those are going off, I bunker down at the top of the steps concealed behind the half wall and wait for the calvary. If the intruder is stupid enough to try to make it up the steps after setting off my alarms, they are in for a bad night.

If it is a noise outside, I will try looking from an upstairs window and if that doesn't work I will go downstairs to look out the window to determine if a call to the police is necessary. If I go downstairs, I take a pistol in case whatever is outside decides to come inside while I am down there.

I do agree I wouldn't go outside to investigate any kind of noise, and I wouldn't go downstairs if there was good reason to believe there was actually someone down there.
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Old November 2, 2008, 05:04 PM   #88
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From revance:
Quote:
There are times you hear a noise that you are 99.99% sure is absolutely nothing... In those cases I go down and take a quick look around just to prove it was nothing. I still take a pistol just in case its the 0.001% chance it was something.
I've put a good deal of thought into your comments, and I must confess to having done the same thing myself. However, based on what I have learned I don't see that happening very often.

If the sound clearly is indicative of an icemaker or dishwasher problem, a broken water line, logs shifting in the fireplace, or an unfastended screen door blowing in the wind, I'll go to it, and I will not arm myself.

If the sound comes from a smoke alarm or a CO detector, we have different drill--leave immediately.

If the sound is indeterminate, but could be a flexible lamp shifting, a book sliding off the arm of a chair, or a bag falling over, and it does not recur, I most probably would not go down. And if I did, I most probably would not arm myself. I would, however, listen for a while to assure myself that things are OK.

Quote:
I wouldn't go downstairs if there was good reason to believe there was actually someone down there.
Good.

Quote:
The argument that if the sound requires you to take a pistol you should call the police instead is just as closed minded as people who say there is no reason to carry because you should be avoiding dangerous places anyway.
I don't agree with you on that, and that argument is espoused by some of the most respected experts on the subject. In most cases, if something "requires" you to take a pistol, it would seem that there's risk of your walking into an ambush. And even if you think the likelihood is low, the consequences would be entirely unacceptable.

That would be my general belief. Now, I can imagine a situation in which you hear a sound that you cannot identify, that may not seem sufficiently threatening to cause you to call for help, and that cannot be identified as something harmless, and because of its nature, you are uncomfortable about ignoring it. You might want to check on it, and discretion may call for you to take a pistol with you. Pretty rare, I should think, but I grant you that the situation may present itself.

Sounds can be deceiving. Years ago, my grandmother was convinced that she could hear someone moving around downstairs. We later heard the sound of desk drawers opening and closing. I loaded a rifle and went downstairs to find our cat trying to find a catnip toy in one of the drawers. The benign outcome may seem to indicate otherwise, but I think based on what I know now, and based on the characteristics of the noise at the time, that that was in fact the time to call the police. Had it been an intruder, I might not be here today.

If you do find yourself having to investigate noises very often, you may want to invest in some remote cameras. I should think they might give you better peace of mind, allow you to stay in bed with fewer interruptions, keep you from potentially going into harm's way, and importantly, greatly reduce the chances of your shooting the wrong person accidentally. It should also give you a better indication of when you do have to call for help. Actually, that was recently suggested by someone else on one of these threads, so I won't take the credit.

I'm going to be looking into that myself.
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Old November 2, 2008, 07:03 PM   #89
Frank Ettin
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Some additional food for thought --

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=93
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Old November 2, 2008, 07:42 PM   #90
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having time to rethink my previously cleared post i have this thought to share with everbody. what kind of home do you guys live in that is a fortress? any normal house built after 1970 or there abouts is nothing more than masonite, builtrite, chip board, sheet rock, and vinyl. a spring air gun is going to send a bb through the walls never mind a 9mm etc. what good does hiding in a bedroom when the door is nothing but luan with particalboard jams. i live in a trailer house, even the front door isnt secure from anything remotely voilent. granted some of you might live in a turn of the century mansion, left over farm house or spent 750k to build a bunker with lots of escape routes. the rest of us living in a ranch, split level or mod home are in trouble.
....anotherwords hidding in the house is certain demise as far as i am concerned. btw i am self employed in residential contruction and base these thoughts on actual building experiances....bobn
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Old November 2, 2008, 07:58 PM   #91
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobn
...hidding in the house is certain demise...
I see your problem. On the other hand, walking into an ambush won't be good for your health either.

I agree that one can't rely on the house itself to provide cover. We rely on some articles of heavy furniture. In correct orientation book case filled with books or magazines, or large appliances can provide cover.
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Old November 2, 2008, 08:20 PM   #92
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From bobn:
Quote:
any normal house built after 1970 or there abouts is nothing more than masonite, builtrite, chip board, sheet rock, and vinyl. a spring air gun is going to send a bb through the walls never mind a 9mm etc. what good does hiding in a bedroom when the door is nothing but luan with particalboard jams.
Excellent points. But if you are largely concealed, and the intruder does not know where you are, and he is exposed to your fire as he approaches, it would seem to me that you have the tactical advantage.

In addition, as Fiddleback points out, you can add bookcases to provide you with additional shielding.

In any event, it would seem to me that you should be better off staying put in a defensive position than in walking into the intruder's line of fire.
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Old November 2, 2008, 08:38 PM   #93
revance
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OldMarksman, I guess I wasn't very clear. The cases where I grab a pistol is when my wife heard something that I did not in the night and wants someone to check it out. I typically stand at the top of the stairs and listen for a while, however sometimes that isn't enough for her. Because of the alarms, I can be almost certain nobody is in the house, but I can't be 100% that the noise wasn't someone working on getting in and I don't want to be caught downstairs unarmed if that really is the case. I agree it doesn't happen often, but it is possible for there to be an instance where its silly to call the police, but it still isn't a bad idea to have a means of protection.

My only point is that if you are 99% sure the cat knocked something over downstairs you aren't going to call the cops, but it doesn't hurt to take something "just in case". I live and work in nice areas, but it doesn't stop me from carrying "just in case".
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Old November 3, 2008, 08:21 AM   #94
OldMarksman
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Revance, I cannot disagree.
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Old November 3, 2008, 12:02 PM   #95
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Quote:
The argument that if the sound requires you to take a pistol you should call the police instead is just as closed minded as people who say there is no reason to carry because you should be avoiding dangerous places anyway.
I would suggest there is quite a difference between grabbing your gun as a security blanket and grabbing your gun because the sound requires it. But willingly going into a dangerous situation with a gun that you wouldn't willingly go into without a gun is always problematic, IMO.

Last edited by David Armstrong; November 3, 2008 at 12:52 PM.
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Old November 3, 2008, 12:50 PM   #96
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Good discussion ref when and what noises require investigation. I think the homeowner would have been better served by staying inside with his family and letting the police handle what ever was happening outside. As long as the bad guy does not attempt to come into my house I could care less about what he does outside to my cars, truck, recreational vehicles, or anything else out there. It can be replaced or repaired.
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Old November 3, 2008, 12:57 PM   #97
David Armstrong
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....anotherwords hidding in the house is certain demise as far as i am concerned.
Hiding in the house will still give you certain advantages. You get to control to some extent the lines of approach available for the BG, you get to have greater control over the location and when to start the fight, you should have greater versatility in tools and weapons, etc.
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Old November 3, 2008, 03:10 PM   #98
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DAV, a shotgun slug blast or any kind of semi pistol or any kind of semi rifle is gonna penitrate from one end to the other. go and shoot some building materials commonly used in todays mass housing contruction. there is no hiding in that kind of setting. bobn
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Old November 3, 2008, 03:20 PM   #99
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From Bobn:
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DAV, a shotgun slug blast or any kind of semi pistol or any kind of semi rifle is gonna penitrate from one end to the other. go and shoot some building materials commonly used in todays mass housing contruction. there is no hiding in that kind of setting. bobn
I think you are focussing on the wrong thing. I live in a house thats 101 years old, but any medium powered handgun bullet will go right through my bedroom door, and my bed would not provide much in the way of bullet stopping capability, either.

That's not the point. If I am where an intruder cannot see me until he is directly in front of me, I have a tremendous tactical advantage.

If I leave that position I have lost that advantage, and since I have no idea where the intruder is and he can see me, the advantage is now his.
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Old November 3, 2008, 03:29 PM   #100
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DAV, a shotgun slug blast or any kind of semi pistol or any kind of semi rifle is gonna penitrate from one end to the other. go and shoot some building materials commonly used in todays mass housing contruction. there is no hiding in that kind of setting.
Sure there is. You are forgetting all the things like furniture, books, tables, etc that are also in the house. And you don't have to have cheap stuff. My outside doors are clad metal, and my bedroom door is pretty thick wood. But even given just walls.,after a couple of wall the rounds aren't going near what they were and IF they manage to hit you they aren't as likely to do damage. But again, I think that is not the real issue. Do you expect somebody to just start randomly shooting through your walls for no reason? The house provides concealement for you, which is good. In addition, as I said, you get to control to some extent the lines of approach available for the BG, you get to have greater control over the location and when to start the fight, you should have greater versatility in tools and weapons, etc. Hiding in the house gives you some very definite advantages with relatively few disadvantages.
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