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Old October 27, 2008, 02:34 PM   #1
gdeal
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2 to the chest 1 to the head

would this still apply to .45 ACP since it's such a man stopper? And there is usually only 7 rounds in a traditional 1911.
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Old October 27, 2008, 02:37 PM   #2
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2+1<7
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Old October 27, 2008, 02:39 PM   #3
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I figure 2 COM would work just fine.
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Old October 27, 2008, 02:39 PM   #4
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A failure drill is a failure drill, whether you're shooting a 9mm, a 45, or a 308 rifle.
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Old October 27, 2008, 02:45 PM   #5
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IIRC, the Mozambique as ascribed to the late J. Cooper & his friend in Africa who practiced this technique, the last shot was more of a pause, aka "coup de grace"....I think after couple to the chest with a .45, you are in a good position whether you have 5 left or 8....
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Old October 27, 2008, 02:55 PM   #6
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The Mozambique drill is recommended any time a controlled pair to the chest does not stop the bad guy -- though today it's more about the potential your bad guy is wearing body armor, since otherwise I'd tend to think another couple to the chest is preferable (in terms of speed of engagement).
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Old October 27, 2008, 03:28 PM   #7
Musketeer
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A failure drill is a failure drill, whether you're shooting a 9mm, a 45, or a 308 rifle.
Exactly.

PCP, Body Armor, Missing Vital Organs and CNS, Psychological State, all are reasons someone might not go down after 1, 2, or 10 rounds to the body. One thing is certain though, if 2 have failed your odds of having #3 to the body work are not nearly as good as they were with #1 or #2.

The old failure drill taught in the modern era no longer includes the "pause" to asses after the first two shots as explained by Gabe Suarez. The two go to the center of mass and the gun aligns immediately where the head should be. If the head is still there then SHOOT IT! If the head is not there it is most likely because he has gone down or staggered in which case you can asses the situation.

The rampage shooting in Tyler Texas and at the Red Branch High School in recent years are just two cases in which the criminal was wearing concealable body armor. In Tyler Mr. Mark Wilson engaged the criminal with his 45 and did make hits on the torso but was eventually gunned down when they failed to stop the killer. His actions saved at least one minor and possibly the LEOs who were hit on the stairs of the court house by buying time for more LEOs to respond and drive off the attacker before killing him later.

The lesson is, if you have hit your target a couple times in the torso and he has not gone down then try something else!


No handgun is a magic stopper and people have taken multiple hits from heavy caliber machine guns in wartime and continued to fight. Play the odds with your weapon choice but no handgun is a Star Trek Phaser set on Disintegrate!
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Old October 27, 2008, 03:29 PM   #8
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I'm not sure I understand your question ..... but is it a good drill, yes ( with any caliber ).

2 in the chest , one in the nuts .... is one of my favorites too. Or two in the nuts - and he'll wish you shot him in the head / or will beg you to shoot him in the head ....( sorry, couldn't resist ).

Double and Triple taps - in any combination are always good drills in my opinion. Another one I like is double tap, reload, double tap, reload, double tap, reload ( until you go thru 12 rounds ) and record your time. If you're outside the A zone on an IPSC target at 21 feet ( record no score ) and do it again. My goal is to run this drill 3 times ( around my average time ) and we're all different on time - with all hits on A zone. Then I move onto something different.
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Old October 27, 2008, 03:32 PM   #9
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If I had to actually engauge a "bad guy", I wouldn't stop shooting until he was on the ground. Not to sound like excessive force, but hesitation can get you killed.

Simularly to hesitating when shooting a charging wild hog...is one shot enough...two, three? Often times it's up to the shooter and/or the situation. It's very difficult to make a "standard" answer for a given situation. Training will help, but even so, there's nothing like being there, having to make the decisions, shooting, getting shot at, etc., etc.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57
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Old October 27, 2008, 03:38 PM   #10
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I'm not sure if anyone is teaching the original Mozambique drill (which started as a lucky break for Cooper's friend and which Cooper incorporated as a technique). It's evolved into the standard response, which is two to the chest and immediately go for the head shot. If the head isn't there, look for it. If you find it on a supine individual who has relinquished the field of battle thereby negating the need for further shots, all the better (I think I channeled Louis for a second).
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Old October 27, 2008, 03:39 PM   #11
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With any pistol, shoot to lockback or until you lose sight of your target. If body hits don't do the job, go for the head. The idea of stopping to assess the situation isn't a good one.

Don't stop shooting till the fight's over.

The fight's over when you lose sight of the BG and, when you find him again, he's on the ground, not moving.
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Old October 27, 2008, 04:53 PM   #12
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But how would this apply to a HD situation? What if you do shoot the intruder twice COM but follow up with one to the head while they are on the ground, are you more likely to be convicted of excessive force, or worse, murder?
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Old October 27, 2008, 06:00 PM   #13
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IANAL, but as I understand self-defense as a justification for shooting, it is difficult to justify shooting someone who is down on the ground. (Absent circumstances such as he is still holding a gun and aiming it at you...)

The other comments about shooting until he's down are touching on this concept.

Not to take this lightly, but if you're going to put 3 rounds into the BG, you have to be able to do it before he hits the ground, so you'd better be good.

I hope I never have to make this decision, but I agree completely with the concept of "shoot until the fight is over".
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Old October 27, 2008, 06:08 PM   #14
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Just for fun, I use a .22 instead of a CF and try for 11

rds faster than my buddy does 2+1. I think I could go to slide lock with a .22 before he hit the ground. Of course, I might have to, with a .22 LOL

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Old October 27, 2008, 06:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
would this still apply to .45 ACP since it's such a man stopper?
Yes, it would still apply. Despite all the mythology, the .45 is not much, if any, better a "manstopper" than any of the other main fighting calibers.
Quote:
And there is usually only 7 rounds in a traditional 1911.
When the Mozambique was being brought into the tactics arena the .45 with 7 rounds was far more common than the high capacity weapons.
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Old October 27, 2008, 06:50 PM   #16
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What if you do shoot the intruder twice COM but follow up with one to the head while they are on the ground, are you more likely to be convicted of excessive force, or worse, murder?
People have gotten away with shooting someone in the back. After the first hit(s) in the front, a BG can turn to run faster than you can realize it and stop shooting.

Shooting a BG who's fallen face down is a different story.
If it's real dark and he's still holding the gun, maybe.
If his heart was wrecked by the first shots, you could argue he was dead already and it's not a felony to shoot a corpse.
If you live in a state with laws like we have here in Florida, you could shoot him after he's down and be dancing on top of him when the cops show up. As long as he broke in, he's all yours.
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Old October 27, 2008, 08:11 PM   #17
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Normally the 45 ACP or L Colt will stop with it's deserved reputation. But in case the BG can't read then after 2 to the chest and he's still standing, one, then two, then three to the brain. If they are still coming you needed a silver bullet.
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Old October 27, 2008, 08:35 PM   #18
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And of course, . . . gdeal, . . . if you start with Wilson, stainless, 8rd mags plus one in the pipe, . . . there is a better scenario stopper there.

Course, . . . remember mama's house rules in case there are more than one, . . . "Everyone gets firsts, . . . before anyone gets seconds".

May God bless,
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Old October 27, 2008, 08:43 PM   #19
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Don't you guys ever get tired of fantasizing about shooting people? Either buy some video games, or stop playing the one you have..
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Old October 27, 2008, 08:46 PM   #20
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Realistically, I think most people will just keep pulling the trigger and not worry about if its in the head or in the chest. My question is why not start with the head? Why move to the head once you have started with the chest? Why not keep going with the chest?

I doubt that most people will make these split second decisions thinking of where the bullet will go to the head or the heart.
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Old October 28, 2008, 01:52 AM   #21
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I think people will aim at where they've trained. That being said, I'd rather start at the chest instead of the head as I would assume there is less danger to others as the rounds are heading down to the ground faster than if you were aiming at the head. That's why a groin shot is an interesting option, but if they're not responding to COM hits, then I think you should go to the head.
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Old October 28, 2008, 10:08 AM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
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If you live in a state with laws like we have here in Florida, you could shoot him after he's down and be dancing on top of him when the cops show up. As long as he broke in, he's all yours.
You can be the test case for shooting someone again after it looks like the threat was removed.

Got a test for you.

Have burglar break in. Have him incapacitated on the ground, obviously unconscious when the cops arrive.

Then shoot him in the head in front of the law.
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Old October 28, 2008, 10:11 AM   #23
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Got a test for you.

Have burglar break in. Have him incapacitated on the ground, obviously unconscious when the cops arrive.

Then shoot him in the head in front of the law.
+1 Glenn E. Meyer
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Old October 28, 2008, 11:35 AM   #24
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What if you do shoot the intruder twice COM but follow up with one to the head while they are on the ground, are you more likely to be convicted of excessive force, or worse, murder?
Wharsmahummer ~

The jury will be instructed to ask themselves if you believed and did what a reasonable person would have believed and done in the exact same circumstances.

You must be able to clearly articulate exactly how your life was in danger at the very moment you pulled the trigger.

If you can, the court will find that it was a good shoot.

If you can't, the court will find that it was not.

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Old October 28, 2008, 11:56 AM   #25
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Realistically, I think most people will just keep pulling the trigger and not worry about if its in the head or in the chest. My question is why not start with the head? Why move to the head once you have started with the chest? Why not keep going with the chest?

I doubt that most people will make these split second decisions thinking of where the bullet will go to the head or the heart.
1. Most people would not think head or chest, they would just blaze away. (That does not make it right.)

2. You are not most people if you choose so.

The first step to dealing with a possible failure to stop is to really understand that it is entirely possible and have a plan of what to do should it occur. Those who have not done so will certainly fail to adapt to the situation. Those who have considered it seriously and practiced should be able to adapt to the situation. Most people will not do so, then again I believe most people are asleep and most have never seriously considered a lethal force encounter let alone a failure to stop.

Why not continue to throw lead into the chest?

There are two explanations.

1. Simple: As Dale Carnegie said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome."

If two rounds have failed to stop in the COM how many others do you want to try? How about all of them? If it still hasn't worked then what?

2. Detailed: People fight because they want to and because they can. The only sure stop is to either shut down the Central Nervous System or inflict enough damage that the target bleeds out to the point that he cannot function. (A third is breaking significant parts of the skeletal system to cause him to drop but that is very unlikely with a handgun and the bones needed to be broken.)

If hits to the torso are not stopping him because he is intent on murder and or is so medicated he does not feel them then you can give up on trying to convince him to stop through pain. You best option is to shut down the CNS which is located in his melon. More in the torso MAY result in a spinal chord break and will cause him to bleed out faster but between adrenaline after already taking two and any other factors mental or pharmaceutical he is not going to stop until he runs out of blood and that can take a long time when someone is intent on murder.

If hits to the torso are not stopping him because he has on body armor, which is FAR from unheard of on rampage killers and criminals these days, then more to the torso are going to accomplish nothing.
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