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Old October 23, 2008, 02:42 AM   #1
JakFrost
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Trap Shooting - Which Shotgun to buy? (Research)

I've been doing research as to which shotgun to buy for single-bird Trap shooting. I've been reading articles and come out with Browning as the company that offers the least expensive shotguns for Trap shooting. There is also Perazzi but their prices are beyond my spending limit.

I put together this list of specifications to compare the various Trap versions of shotguns shown below. I have read articles that all agreed that barrel length does not improve accuracy, velocity, or pellet spread. It was recommended to me to get a shotgun with a longer barrel length and since I am tall, 6'2" I have settled on the 32" barrel. The shotguns below all show the 32" versions, except for the first one that does not come in this barrel length version.

Personally, I have tried the BT-99 also I tried an over-under model from Browning and it is very possible that it was one of the Citori ones but I'm not sure exactly since I forgot to ask. Both shotgun handled great and I got a natural line-up with the beads when I first cheek-in the both guns.

Out of this whole list I favor towards the Browning Citori XT Trap with Adjustable Comb because it was recommended by a long time trap shooter over the more expensive Cynergy guns and also because the price is a lot more affordable when compared to the over ~$3,000 prices for other over-unders.

(Personally, I feel that all the over-under and specialized trap, skeet, and sporting shotguns are overpriced by double or triple by the manufacturers since there does not seem to be any logical reason why these guns fetch such high prices when more complex pump-action or semi-auto guns are a fraction of the price. There is also no explanation why there are no $1,500 synthetic or composite over-under guns being sold without the expensive wallnut woodwork and engraved hardware that I don't favor at all.)

So, I'm looking for comments, opinions and recommendations about these choices or other choices that I haven't considered.

Browning BPS Trap
Browning BT-99 Conventional
Browning BT-99 with Adjustable Comb
Browning Citori XT Trap
Browning Citori XT Trap with Adjustable Comb
Browning Cynergy Classic Trap
Browning Cynergy Classic Trap with Adjustable Comb

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Old October 23, 2008, 08:23 AM   #2
oletymer
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I have ownd most of them. I am 6'4" and currently shooting a BT99. BPS and the Cynergy. All have aftermarket adjustable combs and Gracoils. I use for singles and handicap the BT99 and the Cynergy for doubles. The BPS is a backup. The original Browning adjustable combs are bad. I sold the XT after buying the Cynergy as the XT felt like a club for me.
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Old October 23, 2008, 08:35 AM   #3
Dave McC
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Asking which shotgun to get for trap is like asking which woman to marry, Jack.

There's a plethora of candidates. Some of the guns I see good scores with include....

Old Winchester Model 12s.

Not quite so old trap grade 870s.

Divers Brownings, from Superposeds to Cynergys.

Divers Beretta autos, O/Us and singles.

And ancient but sound Ithaca, Parker and LC Smith single barrel trap guns.

Common features include weight of at least 8 lbs,durability, long barrels, tight chokes, and stocked to place more of the pattern over the bead than at or under it.

In your shoes, I'd not buy a trap gun yet.

Try some out, many trapshooters are friendly and will lend a well spoken beginner their pet for a few shots or a round to try out.

After trying a few, you may have a better idea of what you want.

When I got into trap, I bought an 870 TB, got the stock fitting me and the thing shooting where I look, then ran lots of shells through it. A few K shells later, I could hold my own in most company. When I did my part, it was a death ray on clays.

A friend, new to trap, bought it from me and uses it to demolish targets just like it cost many thousands of dollars.

You may want to do likewise until you find The Magic Shotgun that never misses.....
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Old October 23, 2008, 09:30 AM   #4
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I shoot a Browning BT-99 with an adjustable comb and Gra-coil recoil reduction 'system'. I love the gun and with the adjustable comb and Gra-coil can set it up to fit me perfectly. BT-99s have been around for years and are widely used for the sport. They're reasonably priced and good used ones are easy to find.

Naturally, I'd recommend the BT-99 to anyone considering trap shooting - assuming they don't want to shoot doubles.

That being said, there are many, many very good trap guns from Browning, Perazzi, Kreigoff, etc. Trying to tell someone what gun to buy is just like trying to tell them what car to buy. It's a matter of personal preference.
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Old October 23, 2008, 10:57 AM   #5
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Quote:
Asking which shotgun to get for trap is like asking which woman to marry, Jack.
+1
Don't buy a trap gun based on catalog specs or how if mounts at the gun store. Buy one based upon your personal actual experience shooting trap, lots of trap. From your present gun, what features do you want to see in your next gun and which ones do you want to change? If your trap shooting has been limited to occasional outings with an entry level field gun, then there's little chance you've enough experience to properly evaluate a comp gun.

The selection of a comp gun is an evolutionary process and you can't just jump right in and find, what Dave calls, The Magic Shotgun. A point that's often overlooked: as your shooting skills improve your comp gun requirements change. This is one reason there's such turn-over in comp guns -- shooters are continually progressing. A typical example is barrel length/weight/balance: a new shooter will want a quicker gun so he can get on the target; but, with experience initial target acquisition becomes easier and a smoother swinging gun is more desirable.

This forum, and others like it, provide a fantastic opportunity to exchange information with others with similar interests. But, there's no substitute for actual shooting experience. For example, you asked about barrel length based on your height -- who told you that your height is the prime factor in determining barrel length? No one in this forum can tell you what's the best barrel length for you, but they can discuss factors important to selecting barrel length. Others can tell you what gun works best for them, but not what will work best for you. Granted, functional reports can be factored into your gun selection. For what it's worth, like Dave, I started shooting practice and then ATA with a Remington trap-grade stick gun.
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Old October 23, 2008, 02:42 PM   #6
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The Browning XT 32" with an adj comb is the most versatile trap gun I own - so that is my vote. I like the balance and adjustability a lot in this gun. The gun retains its value long term / would be a solid buy in my view.

There are some with a gra coil system in them - but I would probably say go with just the plain version. You can add a gracoil later.
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Old October 23, 2008, 04:07 PM   #7
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I would kep in mind that if you keep with this you are probably going to get adjustable comb and adjustable buttpad, so which one fits the best at the store may not be the only thing to consider. I would buy a used one with those items already installed.
I would be very concerned about adjustable chokes, how the safety functions and where it is, and weight.

My 11-87 is really light unless I start going 5-6 rounds in a row, then it starts to affect my shooting, heavier guns would be worse.

I am in the same spot as you though, so I really don't know what I am talking about, or do I?
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Old October 23, 2008, 06:36 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062
...how the safety functions and where it is.
Typically, comp guns don't use safeties. While handling your gun, the action stays open at all times until it's your turn to actually shoot. While at battery, your finger is kept outside the guard until the moment before you call for the target. Some guns have the provision to block the safety with a user installed cross pin.
Quote:
My 11-87 is really light unless I start going 5-6 rounds in a row, then it starts to affect my shooting, heavier guns would be worse.
Many trap shooters add additional weight to a Remington stick trap gun to aid recoil reduction and to smooth out the swing. I'm confused, what you mean by "5-6 rounds in a row" -- do you mean round as in an individual shot shell or a sequence of 25 targets?

If you're interested in trap shooting, your location (SW Ohio) is the place to be. The national headquarters of the Amateur Trapshooting Association is in Vandalia south of the Dayton airport.
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Old October 23, 2008, 08:57 PM   #9
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I went through this same question and went through several guns. The BT just wouldn't shoot high enough for me. I've shot my best scores (first 50 straight) with an older Beretta 390 with supertrap barrel I picked up on a lark for $500 at Bud's retail store.

391 Parallel targets would compare favorably.


I'm the only auto at my club, but I'm not the least bit tired after 200 rounds.
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Old October 23, 2008, 10:02 PM   #10
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Try 'em if you can

I'm the odd man out. I shoot trap with a SKB 200E SxS double, 28" M/F barrels. I've always shot SxS doubles, and they work well for me, but that's with thousands of rounds in the field and at the trap range. My trap gun was fitted for me by a good smithy with a recoil pad and the length-of-pull increased by 1/2". That might sound like much, but it did a world of difference to my scores.

All doubles, SxS or O/U are expensive, so see if you can try one first. If all you want is a single barrel, I don't think anyone ever went wrong with a BT-99.
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Old October 23, 2008, 10:36 PM   #11
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Considering your closing comment, I am surprised you aren't looking at the automatics. I started out with a Remington 1100 TA and while I have owned several other guns at up to 10 times the price, and shot a bunch of loaners, I have always gone back to the old gas gun that does not beat me up. Kentucky Smith has it right.
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Old October 24, 2008, 12:06 AM   #12
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ok, my personal gun selection is a citori (love mine), but my favorite is my mossberg 835.

I personally don't like an auto because I tend to not "think" on any missed shots and instead just pull the trigger on the next shot. A set of double triggers on an o/u or a pump gun force you to "think" while you are going through the motions to get the next shot ready.
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Old October 24, 2008, 08:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Many trap shooters add additional weight to a Remington stick trap gun to aid recoil reduction and to smooth out the swing. I'm confused, what you mean by "5-6 rounds in a row" -- do you mean round as in an individual shot shell or a sequence of 25 targets?
Only shooting the 11-87 until I upgrade, then it becomes a field gun, so I don't want to put much money/time into making it heaviers. 5-6 rounds of 25.

Quote:
Typically, comp guns don't use safeties.
True, but I think this is an aspect someone might overlook if buying a beginner gun. I am not sure if the recommended 870s and such have safeties. I have seen people shoot doubles with a safety that resets after each shot. Gave them a lot of trouble.
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Old October 24, 2008, 10:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Only shooting the 11-87 until I upgrade, then it becomes a field gun, so I don't want to put much money/time into making it heaviers. 5-6 rounds of 25.
A wise decision, as I mentioned earlier, I started with a Remington 1100 Trap. I was accustomed to heavier tubed Skeet guns and the 1100 was too small and light for my taste. Nevertheless, I gained trap shooting experience with the 1100. Eventually, I got an O/U combo trap gun. I'm certain you're gaining experience, shooting your 11-87, that will influence the selection of your next shotgun.
Free mod: If your 11-87 feels light in the front, put a shoot-filled hull in the muzzle end of the mag tube. The mag spring will keep it in place. If you've not previously removed the Magazine Spring Retainer, see your owners manual.
Quote:
I have seen people shoot doubles with a safety that resets after each shot. Gave them a lot of trouble.
Some shotguns, typically youth and field models, automatically set the safety each time they're opened. Setting it automatically between shots is a different issue: It's my understanding that it's not an uncommon problem with certain Mossbergs having plastic safeties.
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Old October 24, 2008, 03:18 PM   #15
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The BT 99, in my view is too specialized as a first Trap gun - not saying its a bad gun, its not, but it will only handle singles / a lot of shooter may want to shoot some singles, some continental where you can load 2 shells or even doubles ( so I think an O/U is a more versatile first buy). However, if you really want a single barrel the BT-99 or the older BT-100 are fine guns. The BT-100 has the added advantage of a removeable trigger, which I like very much.

Cynergy O/U's are fine - but the ones with the adj comb only adjust up and down - they will not adjust for cast on and off ( left and right) and that's a negative in my view.

Citori XT - with adj comb fixes both of the issues above / so, again that's my vote ( with more detail behind my reasoning ). In my view, the Citori XT with adj comb is a great gun for the money.

To the part of your note that speaks to cost - partly it is what the market will bear in my view. There is more machining in an O/U than a typical pump gun ... wood on most O/U's are a little fancier, more steel ( 2 barrels, 2 firing pins, etc ) - but I don't work for Browning, so I don't know everything that goes into their pricing / and I will tell you that one of the XT's I have is several years old - has thousands or shells thru it - and is virtually as tight today as the day I bought it. But if you want to save a few bucks there are a lot of good used XT's out there - and some very gently used / some beat to heck ....you just need to find a good one.

To specs - we are all different - I'm 6'5" and about 290 lbs - but what really matters on any gun, is does it fit, so it hits where you look. A gun with a paralell comb / and an adj comb is easily adjustable - so it will hit where you look with some adjustment / and you can adjust it to shoot 60%/40% 50%/50% or whatever suits you. Personally, I like my Trap gun up around 10lbs - because Trap in general, has way less barrel movement than Skeet, Sporting Clays or field shooting - and that extra weight helps to keep the gun moving on follow-thru. I also like the way the Browning Citori's - especially the XT model - balances near the hinge pin / the Cynergy feels a little different to me ( although I've only shot them a little ). The Browning BPS Trap grade may be a good gun for you - to me, its way too light.

But to me a Trap gun has to have a couple of things:
a paralell comb - (comb is paralell to rib on gun)
an adj comb ( so I can set the point of impact )
O/U - so I can put different chokes in each barrel / shoot cont or doubles
a 12ga
a 32" barrel in an O/U - 34" barrel in a single barrel gun / around 10lbs

I change to an 8 1/2 lb gun ( for quicker games like Skeet, Sporting Clays, or field shooting in a 12ga ) because they have more barrel movement left to right.
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Old October 25, 2008, 12:26 AM   #16
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I've read a lot of the different opinions and I agree with many of them, it is hard to find that Magic Shotgun but I'm here asking for feedback and I'm happy to receive it.

As I read through the replies I am primarily looking for info on the guns that people have bought and then sold off for one reason or another and if I see a trend or pattern in that I know what to avoid. At the same time I look for guns that are thoroughly recommended, like the BT-99 and Citori XT in this thread, so I know what the general popular consensus is.

The comments regarding the Citori XT Trap versus the Cynergy Trap are all very welcome because they echo what I was told myself at the range. It is something to keep in mind when many people tell you the same thing.

Two new questions that came to mind are below.

What is the gun that people finally end up with?

And further down the line in this sport.

What guns do the competition shooters use?
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Old October 25, 2008, 01:35 AM   #17
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If you are shooting singles then a single barrel trap gun like the BT-99 or similar is the way to go. As tall as you are, I might suggest a BT-99 Plus. These were made before the BT-100 came out and are somewhat hard to find but they have an adjustable comb, and rib, with a recoil system built into the stock. The comb adjusts to the left and right as well as up and down so that you can get you eye inline with the barrel. I am 6-4 and thats what I shoot most often. I really like the adjustable rib in that you can set it at 20/80, 40/60, or any variation. Once its set in, you have a natural pointer.
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Old October 25, 2008, 01:57 AM   #18
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Ok, I just read your last post. It makes it easier for me. I have sold off two Browning over/unders because they are to cumbersome. They are alright for shooting doubles but I found that my sporting clays gun was actually better for the job than either of the Browning Trap o/u. The single barrel shotgun in my opinion is a faster handling shotgun. I got rid of an 870 TC because it would grind out 25/25 at the 16 but when I got to the 27 I started dropping clays. My BPS does a pretty good job as well as an 11-87 that I own but the 11-87 would not hold up to some of my trap loads. Parts keep falling out of the bottom of the gun. (My favorite trap load is 1 3/16 ounce of number fours in a cheddite hull with enough powder to make it run 1550 fps through the chronograph If I had the money I would have a Perazzi but I do not so the 99-Plus is my gun of choice. Remington mad a T-90 if I remember the number correctly that was a rock solid gun also but they are getting a little hard to find as is the 99-Plus.
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Old October 25, 2008, 07:43 AM   #19
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JakFrost
Quote:
Two new questions that came to mind are below.

What is the gun that people finally end up with?
For ATA comp, my original Remington 1100 Trap was supplanted by a Beretta 682 combo with ported barrels and a shockmaster. But, I'm not a very serious trap shooter -- my comp gun budget went mostly to skeet guns.
And further down the line in this sport.

What guns do the competition shooters use?
For singles and handicap, some of the old timers are using M12's; but, top-breaks are the most popular. Brownings and Berettas are common. Among the serious shooters Perazzis are popular as well as some custom rigs like the Ljutic. For doubles, one or two Krieghoffs may join in the mix, but Italian O/U's are the most popular.
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Old October 26, 2008, 09:46 PM   #20
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mr frost

Mr frost i would go with the purcase of an xt trap combo 34 32 inch. Just listen u r a tall guy as u said. tall guys need a longer gun trust me im 6 3 i bought a 32 and it was the biggest mistake of my shooting career. If u dont like the xt thats ok but i would still recomend the 34 in on any trap gun u buy.
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Old October 27, 2008, 02:29 PM   #21
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Browning XT Trap with a 32" barrel is the most common gun I see among Trap shooters at my local club / with and without the gracoil system in it. I don't know what you'll see at a regional or a national tournament for Trap guns - but my hunch is you'll see a little of everything from O/U's to single barrels.

Browning probably dominates the single barrels - BT 99 or BT100 / but Krieghoff, Lujtic, etc are out there as well in the premium price category.

I can honestly tell you I have singles and O/U's - and month in and month out the gun I've shot the best is my XT. My XT with the gracoil is a gun I will always keep - but I don't sell hardly any guns ....and I'm not even a serious Trap shooter ...I'm more of a skeet, sporting clays, bird hunter ...

Some guys go thru a lot of different guns / some don't - but the guys you really want to ask, are guys that could afford to shoot anything they want - and see what they shoot and why. Confidence is a funny thing in the clay target games - and once a guy loses confidence in a gun, its almost always for sale....
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Old October 28, 2008, 02:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
"What is the gun that people finally end up with?

And further down the line in this sport.

What guns do the competition shooters use?"
Complex questions. It all depends on what you're most comfortable with. For me, that's a SxS double, and that works for me, but I know I'm far-and-away in the minority. O/U doubles rule for the most part. Pumps, autos, single-shots will all get the job done if you do your part, and they're a lot less expensive. You can't touch a decent double for less than two-three grand any more. Hardly in the new-shooter range. The pumps (I'm thinking Mossberg 500 or Remington 870) are more in the $500 range, and if you do your part, they'll work fine.

The most important thing, and I can't emphasize this enough, is to get one that fit's YOU!. I don't care if it's a SxS, O/U, pump, auto, SS, if it doesn't fit properly (and a good smithy can fix that), you haven't got a chance.

Keep your eyes open, and look for "that one" that fits you just right. Trust me on this one -- after 30 years of trap shooting, that's the single most important thing.
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Old October 29, 2008, 03:11 PM   #23
JakFrost
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Updated Shotguns

I took all the recommendations and mentions of shotguns in this thread and I updated my spreadsheet just so that I have a reference to what everyone is recommending. I wanted to update the original first post but this forum has the edit feature disabled unfortunately.

The Winchester models look very much like the Browning models, except that they are priced lower. One of my friends mentioned that they are both owned by the Herstal Group manufactured at the same factory by Fabrique Nationale.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the Browning Citori XT Trap with Adj Comb since that is the original recommendation from a long time shooter at the trap range which coincides exactly with what BigJimP is also saying in this thread. It appears that this is the most recommended and popular shotgun so it seems that the people who have it learned and skipped all the mistakes of buying the wrong equipment from the get go.

I was considering the Browning BT-99 model but I have some reservations with paying so much money for a single shot break-open model when for a few hundred more I can have an over-under break-open model that could someday be used for other purposes like double-trap. There is also the issue of asthetics since I prefer the look of the over-under. Also, this way if I later get a semi-auto single-barrel shotgun for another purpose such as field or defense for a third of the price of the BT-99 I won't feel like I overspent. The extra added weight of the over-under versus single-barrel does not sound like a disadvantage when I read that long time shooters prefer heavier guns for trap for a smoother swing and since I'm tall the weight is not issue.

One thing that I saw mentioned a lot is a recoil reducing system like the GraCoil that is popular and is being recommended. I don't really know if that is something that I would be interested in at all since I am not recoil averse but I thought I'd mention this anyway since I've seen references to this system.

Funny story is that before I went for my first trap shoot I was told that the shotguns have a big kick and that I should expect my shoulder to be black-and-blue after 4-rounds (100-shots). I did the entire day with shooting the standard Rio TLT32 loads 2 3/4 Dram with #7.5 or #8 shot using pump, single, and over-unders and when I was finished I had no markings and no injuries of any kind except for a little mild tightness in my shoulder and a little tingle in my right cheek. The overall effect was much gentler than after any of my visits to the gym when I lift weights and get much tighter a day or two after.

Code:
Type		Make		Model
Semi-Auto	Beretta		AL391 Teknys 12GA Gold Trap, 32", OBS
Over-Under	Beretta		682, Gold E Trap, Adjustable Stock, 32", OBTR
Over-Under	Beretta		682, Gold E Trap Unsingle Combo, 34" OBTR
Over-Under	Beretta		DT10 Trident 12GA Trap Adj. Stock, 32", OBTR
Semi-Auto	Browning	BPS Trap
Single		Browning	BT-99 Conventional
Single		Browning	BT-99 with Adjustable Comb
Over-Under	Browning	Citori XT Trap
Over-Under	Browning	Citori XT Trap with Adjustable Comb
Over-Under	Browning	Cynergy Classic Trap
Over-Under	Browning	Cynergy Classic Trap with Adjustable Comb
Semi-Auto	Remington	870 Wingmaster Classic Trap
Semi-Auto	Remington	1100 Classic Trap
Single		Remington	SPR100
Over-Under	Remington	SPR310
Over-Under	Remington	SPR310S Sporting
Over-Under	Winchester	Model 101 Pigeon Grade Trap
Over-Under	Winchester	Model 101 Pigeon Grade Trap Adjustable Comb
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Last edited by JakFrost; October 29, 2008 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Links added.
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Old October 29, 2008, 04:51 PM   #24
USA123456789
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Jak i have one last thing to say. The only thing that matters in the purcase of a gun is if it fits you.
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