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Old October 18, 2008, 11:53 PM   #26
fbrown333@suddenlink
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gun ban

It's kinda like putting a frog in a hot frying pan (gun ban) he will jump right out (us), but if you put him in a cold pan and turn the heat up slowly he will sit there and eventualy cook. I forget who said that but it's true. They will chip away at our rights a little at a time until we have none and before we realize it so stay alert!!!
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Old October 19, 2008, 12:16 AM   #27
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This is a bit of a depressing thread for me. I guess you will have all heard the
unreasonable ligislation introduced in Australia in 1997.

Now someone asked, how they would enforce it? Well in Australia, they have a great solution to this. They don't.

Anyone who is honest has to jump through all the hoops for a bolt action rifle or single barrelled shotgun. Put up with quite impolite treatment at the police station (the implication being that you are a borderline criminal and they are just waiting to pin something on you). And these guys don't even know their own laws. It took me a lot of trouble at the police counter to get them to process my application in the way the central firearms cell in the state capital said they should -- and give me all my entitlements. This was not an easy thing to do -- standing up to the police in their own station.
It really is like that at the local police stations.

The average public hates gun owners with a passion. The prime minister said he hated guns, and him and the rest made it pretty clear they were not keen on the owners either.

In Australia, despite the size of the country, there is very little public land you can hunt on. In my state, exactly none. Most people over the years who have wanted to hunt have found they could not. They have dropped out. Now little of the population make a rural living, and have little access to land. They don't grow their own food animals and they don't hunt them. They are not vegetarians -- but they hate the idea that someone might get satisfaction from procuring meat for the table for them selves. They have no affinity with gun owners and hunters, because they have no opportunity to develop one. So the hunter and gun owner are very poorly thought of indeed, and are treated that way by police and the general public. Just over the Tasman in NZ, the culture is totally different (and they have lots of public land to hunt on).

Now, while gun owners are lambasted at every opportunity little is done to curb illegal gun ownership -- by the really dangerous types. 80 % of crime committed with firearms is committed with illegal firearms or by people not licensed to have them. There is a veritable flood of pistols into the country through the same channels as drugs. I can't have one, but you can almost guarantee in some areas of the country that the junkies breaking in will have.

The Institute of Criminology (not sure of the official name) indicated that no further pistol legislation was warranted when there was a crime in Melbourne involving pistols in a lecture theatre a few years ago, but the federal govt used the crime to allow them to bring in a heap of new anti handgun legilsation banning a range of pistols: handguns with less than a certain barrel length; auto's .45 and above -- all gone.

While the gun owner has been hammered, just guess what one fine Queenslander received as a sentence after being found in possession of two or three stolen pistols, three rifles, and a couple of shotguns? He was only intending to sell them to a drug dealer, which seems wise since he could have scored a whole heap more drugs with $14 000 worth of firearms.

This guy got 150 hours of community service. A recent article in the Australian Shooter has a whole list of these cases. The average Australian is so set against legitamate firearms owners yet this is going on.

So your government may not adequately enforce these laws, but the honest people will abide by them. You might hide your guns, but watch what will happen when you happen to defend yourselves with them in your own home, even with good reason.

So I would rather be a Kiwi. I lived there for a couple of years, and I could love that country. In Australia I guess I feel a bit like the aborigines must have felt - dispossessed in my own country, when I've spent my life being an upstanding citizen.

So that is what you would be in for. The only hope you could have is if such a move got the same response as I have heard was recieved in Canada. Didn't everyone uniformly just ignore the calls for bans?

Oh and guess what, the statistics from an analysis of the gun grab/buyback in Australia in 1997 are in and published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. Hundreds of millions of dollars spent on the buyback has had not effect on violent crime in general in Australia. Before the buyback there was a statistically verifiable trend of decreased gun violence since the 1970's. That trend did not change at all with the buyback.


My input.

Kind regards,

Matt
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Old October 19, 2008, 12:25 AM   #28
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Unfortunately all my guns are registered with the state police, so no way I could lie to them.
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Old October 19, 2008, 12:35 AM   #29
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I swear this question gets asked one a month...yawn...
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Old October 19, 2008, 01:14 AM   #30
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I gave all my guns away to marauding looters Officer.....
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Old October 19, 2008, 02:39 AM   #31
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Just stop and think, how many of your rights we've all ready lost and did nothing about ! We sit on our thumbs and do nothing as a country of "sheep". Gun ban no not yet, it's still on the list though , but government still has a lot more little rights to take away before "we wake up", they just do it a little at a time and we don't even know it.
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Old October 19, 2008, 06:11 AM   #32
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I think the OP was asking what the results of a gun ban would be and perhaps how enforcement would be carried out.

Let's take it from the top. Congress passes a law outlawing individual citizens from possessing firearms. Additional laws burden any firearm seller with huge amounts of paperwork and approvals before transferring a gun to, say an armored car company.
  • Companies like S&W, Ruger, Glock (Georgia), et al, lay off anywhere from 70% to 95% of their employees.
  • About 96% of the small & medium businesses such as distributors and dealers close.
  • Ancillary companies like Burris, Leopold, HKS, Bianchi, Safariland and others shutter their doors and lay off workers.
  • Ammunition companies lay off 90% of their workforce as demand for ammunition drops dramatically.
  • After a brief spike in sales during legislative debates, Alliant, Hodgon, Winchester powder plants are shuttered or reduced to a small operation. RCBS, Lee, Dillon, et al close.
  • Contract prices for US Military small arms and ammuntion increase approximately 350%.

Secondary effects:
  • Loss of revenue to insurance companies who charge high premiums for gun-related business liability insurance. Other business insurance rates increase to offset the loss.
  • Some layoffs at packaging & printing shops since thousands of product boxes are not being produced.
  • Unknown economic losses as workers cash in stocks to survive and shareholders of now worthless Ruger, S&W (etc) stocks push court actions.
  • Decline in machine tool orders for steel working machines and tools.
Enforcement effects:
I doubt the gov't would implement a large-scale plan to confiscate firearms from the general public. Instead, this is what I think they'd most likely do...
  • Use BATF registrations of Class III firearms to notify owners of a "turn in date". Those who don't, get a visit from the BATF SWAT team and are used as "object lessons" to all other gun owners.
  • Use state and federal registration records to identify people who own "large collections" of firearms -- i.e. more than 100 guns. Notices are sent to them demanding they arrange a "collection date" with the local authorities. Those who refuse are arrested by the local SWAT teams and prosecuted.
  • Agency videos of these busts are given extensive air play on media outlets to show that police are enforcing the new gun laws and charging people with felonies with huge prison terms.
  • Known belligerent owners who are likely to engage in a firefight may be given that chance just so BATF can show justification for using light armored vehicles and destructive tactics "as a lesson" to others.
  • As the number of "large" collections diminish, they refocus on "sizeable" collections -- anyone with 25 or more guns. Lather, rinse, repeat.
  • US and local district attorneys provide high profile press conferences when "illegal gun traffickers" are finally sentenced.
  • If you use a firearm in otherwise legitimate self-defense, initially the tactic will be to fine the defending victim between $5k to $10k for possessing the gun and that's it. After 2-3 years however, the fine remains plus 5-15 years in prison.
  • When owners of less than 25 guns are to be taken down, instead of direct assaults, owners will be asked to appear before an IRS tax audit (with their spouse) or some similar arrangement (Jury duty, building permit review, etc.). While there, SWAT teams serve a search warrant (if such is still required) on an empty house or one containing only other family members. The main belligerents are out of the way while their property is seized and they are arrested away from home.
  • Joe Sixpack with his nightstand .38 is left alone. If he ever uses his gun, he goes to jail. On top of that, like the U.K., the thug who forced him to use his gun (or the thug's family) can sue the crap out of Joe Sixpack and win.

Crime Rises
As criminals see the citizenry become defenseless they will change their tactics.
  • Muggings on the street will become more common.
  • Carjacking to obtain desireable autos increases.
  • Home-invasion style robberies take a huge jump since citizens are less likely to have a gun. The thugs will have their guns with them, of course.
  • Rape increases, especially kidnap-rape crimes.
  • Gang activity increases and spreads to formerly "nice" neighborhoods. Gang members intimidate anyone they please and are still armed with guns.
  • New guns are produced in a clandestine "cottage industry".
  • Sales of "protection dogs" increases.
  • Sales of alarm systems skyrockets.
  • More affluent communities become "gated communities" in an effort to reduce crime.
  • The "Kitty Genovese Syndrome" is repeated hundreds of times as citizens hearing cries for help don't even call 911 for fear of "getting involved" and worries over retribution.
  • State and local governments pass more laws aimed at reducing crime. Prohibitions against carrying a knife with a blade longer than 2", prohibitions against OC spray, stun guns, Tasers, etc. leaving even more citizens defenseless.
  • The wealthy retreat to gated communities with gated properties guarded by high-tech and armed guards, possibly with K9 units.
  • Numerous wealthy persons obtain one or more good quality "black market guns" early on, one that isn't traceable to them. After an incident, they'll turn it over to police and say they got it from the thug (in a struggle or by striking it out of their hand). The thug won't be able to deny it either.
  • Crime sprials out of control in many areas of major cities. Thugs become bold enough to assault and rob patrons on mass transit without fear of interference or apprehension. Parking garages with any form of security charge astronomical rates.
  • Employee costs skyrocket in some cities due to the level of crime and employees not wanting to live nearby.
  • Health care costs jump (even more) as companies pay for crime victim injuries, sometimes into the six figure range.
  • The government increases taxes to cover rising costs of crime and increased payouts for law enforcement fatalities (due to gun battles with gangs).
  • The Police Chiefs petition congress to make new laws to make it "easier" for them to arrest and prosecute thugs. Congress kills entirely the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine, the Miranda warning and lowers the bar for extended police searches.
  • U.S. Police state begins emerging in full.

There... did I miss anything?
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Old October 19, 2008, 08:22 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillCA
There... did I miss anything?
Primary effects:
  • Contract prices for LEO small arms and ammunition increase approximately 350%.
  • Should a defensive war occur, Military will not be able to procure additional small arms and ammunition of any kind.

Secondary effects:
  • Because of the high cost of ammunition, Military training will drop to an absolute minimum.
  • Because of the high cost of ammunition, police can no longer train.
  • Less training means more citizen bystanders will be shot in the increased confrontations.
  • Qualified immunity laws will be strengthened and the citizen will no longer be able to sue the police for their incompetence in shootings.

Crime Rises
  • Home owners and individuals will be prosecuted for defending themselves.
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Old October 19, 2008, 08:50 AM   #34
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So far, a special thanks to the quality posts by Redneck Riot and BillCA. Thanks also to sikasambared for the insightful opinion and info from Oz.

Now the question posed is, "What happens if Guns are banned?", not, "Do you think Guns will be banned?" Review your post and see which question you answered.

Note: Using nick names and creating short cuts to work around the prohibition on naming candidates and parties here in General Discussion endangers your entire post. A thoughtful, on topic post with a "what's his name for Chi-town" stuck in there leads me to believe some here may take this prohibition lightly. If a gray area is created by this practice, it will fall in the prohibition also. Don't press this button.
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Old October 19, 2008, 09:32 AM   #35
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Quote:
By Redneck_Riot
But for a moment lets just say that door to door confiscation were approved, Whom would the government appoint to carry out this order?

I served in the ARMYfor 4 years as a RANGER none of my brothers would take up arms against their own citizens or families.

the police? most Law enforcement officers have prior military service backgrounds so I dismiss this as well.

Our government will never risk a civil war again there will always be guns in America, a outright ban on semi automatics that resemble or are the same weapons used by military and law enforcement will most likely be the next target and many Americans will not object to this especially urban Americans who are not educated and have not grown up around guns.
I agree, the military/LEO Community would never participate en bloc with firearm confiscation, but a standing army loyal to specific PEOPLE, not the nation/constitution in whole, could.

Quote:
By an Unnamed, High Profile Politician

We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.
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Old October 19, 2008, 09:55 AM   #36
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There won't be a weapons ban

That is still political suicide in some areas..at least until our open boarders have allowed the liberals to maintain a super majority . [edited]

The way it will be done is to attack the manufacturers, distributors and retailers of weapons and ammunition.

Recently there was an attempt to enact a law that would require a serial number for each and every round of ammo produced. This was proposed under the guise of crime prevention..it was really an attempt to increase the cost of ammunition to prohibitive levels so that Joe the plumber could not afford to shoot his weapon..then only the hypocritical liberal wealthy elite could afford to buy ammunition..

I read recently about some credit card companies not allowing gun purchases with their cards..


Some ways the Federal government can attack firearms possession indirectly.

The ATF can make life much more miserable for FFL holders than they do already. Increase the fees and onerous paper work requirement (see California.)

Harass the insurance companies who provide insurance for the gun industry.

How about back ground investigation for anyone involved in the supply chain. Drivers, dock workers , warehouse employees. salesmen..



bullets..they have LEAD,MERCURY AND EXPLOSIVE POWDER as part of their components don't they!!!.....I see increased hazardous materials fees and regulation of ammunition.

I'm sure manufactures of firearms and ammunition know many more of these death by a thousand cuts than I have listed here.

There are many many ways a a anti-gun administration can increase the costs dramatically.
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Old October 19, 2008, 11:04 AM   #37
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What did BillCA miss?

1. We will be eaten by unopposed zombies - sorry couldn't resist.

2. If you look it up, there is strong evidence that many guns wouldn't be turned in. this has happened in Australia and California - known stocks haven't shown up.

3. Massive inefficiencies and scandals revolve around the databases and systems used to track the turn in - cost overruns become a scandal - as in Canada.

4. If some guns are allowed and compensation given for those taken, massive buying of the allowed guns. I think there was evidence of this in Australia -correct me if I'm wrong but I saw this posted. For example, no handguns for home defense - so buy an O/U shotgun.
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Old October 19, 2008, 01:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
There... did I miss anything?
I contact some people from back in high school and get into the rewarding world of smuggling. (As far as the government is concerned in such a senario, I'm already a criminal so I might as well play the role.) Much like happened with alcohol prohibition, people who were in the business of alcohol, who were otherwise law abiding people, got into the smuggling business to pay the bills. The police only catch the dumb smugglers. (Don't speed in a stolen car with a trunk full of Heroin down the interstate with no cover story and you will probably be fine.) Leaving the smart ones to go on with life.

The end result is that the "War on Guns" will be just as successful as the war on drugs. Instead of having to just worry about the people who misuse drugs/guns and hurt others, the police will have to go after: the new black market where the only way to settle disputes is with violence, people who own guns but aren't hurting anyone, police corruption as a result of the profits involved. End result, the problem becomes 4 times worse than it was, as can be seen with the War on drugs. (25% of violence a result of drug use, 75% of violence a result of the illegal drug trade.)

We already have 25% of the worlds prison population under the War on Drugs. We could likely see out prison population increase by another million or so. Meaning more prisons being build, since building school is for losers.

All the while, drugs and guns will be readily available, though at their vastly inflated black market price. Last I checked, Glocks in the UK are readily available, but go for about $5K right now. People who can't afford that have to make do with sawed off shotguns.
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Old October 19, 2008, 01:45 PM   #39
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What happens if Guns are banned?
The legislators who enacted the law get voted out of office by the people?
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Old October 19, 2008, 01:58 PM   #40
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If there is a "real" attempt to ban guns of any kind, then lawyers will get rich, artificial restrictions on firearms will in the short term benefit domestic manufacturers, then as foreign gun makers innovate it will turn around and bite American gun makers in the butt.
In the end guns will not be banned and their price will rise by a large percentage.

Last edited by Bud Helms; October 19, 2008 at 05:47 PM. Reason: vulgar
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Old October 19, 2008, 02:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
All the while, drugs and guns will be readily available, though at their vastly inflated black market price. Last I checked, Glocks in the UK are readily available, but go for about $5K right now. People who can't afford that have to make do with sawed off shotguns.
Any idea what blackmarket ammo costs to feed those glocks and SGs? Just curious is all...
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Old October 19, 2008, 02:34 PM   #42
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Problem with comparing guns to drugs is you can do drugs in private where no one knows what's going on (and yes, alcohol is a drug).

I own a gun, dang it, I'm going to shoot it.

As mentioned before, if all the guns are outlawed, there will be a battlefield on America's soil. And don't be too sure that all the men who swore to protect our freedom and our flag will be fightinig for the goverment if it should come to that.

What, should I be wearing my tin hat?
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Old October 19, 2008, 02:52 PM   #43
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What happens? The prices go up and I dont buy from gun stores and gun shows anymore. Ever heard of bathtub gin??
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Old October 19, 2008, 04:39 PM   #44
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Old October 19, 2008, 05:18 PM   #45
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Not our guns our Ammo

I dont think they will go after our guns. I think They will tax the ammo so much so it will dry up so the guns are worth nothing so buy all you can and all the reloading equiptment. Ive had a little trouble getting primers lately everything is getting high. So Brothers Please be careful. Guns with no ammo are useless. That is my 2 cents for what its worth. Thanks and god bless. your friend. Patrick
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Old October 19, 2008, 06:21 PM   #46
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What happens if guns are banned:?

I replied to this posting with what I believe to be real life answers.

this question cannot be answered in a direct format because IMHO our guns will never be banned. the question might as well be "WHAT WILL WE DO IF ONE DAY THE SKY FALLS DOWN?" my point is not to demean the original poster of this thread but to point out that this is not a reality there are more than 35 million handguns alone in the United States according to the National Statistics for crime prevention as surveyed in 2000

America is an armed nation, we always have been since the Declaration of Independence.

I agree that if the government ever did ban our guns they would most certainly lose their jobs the next election, look what happened to Clinton and his cronies after his AWB anti gun politicians all over the congress and white house lost their jobs!

IMHO our government will be focused on far more important things that are currently facing this nation, the crumbling economy, loss of jobs, guns are just not big enough to add to this list at this point in time and so will be taking a back seat in the legislature.

I watched all the debates this election year, can anyone remember the topic of gun control ever even brought up durring any of this besides the fella in michigan who asked a question to Joe Biden "are my babies going to be safe"?

the topic of gun control did not get much emphasis durring this election campaign year .
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Old October 19, 2008, 11:47 PM   #47
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deleted.

Last edited by rogertc1; October 20, 2008 at 05:45 AM.
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Old October 20, 2008, 04:32 AM   #48
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It will never happen!
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Old October 20, 2008, 09:35 PM   #49
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Quote:
Any idea what blackmarket ammo costs to feed those glocks and SGs? Just curious is all...
Don't know, the article I read it in, from a UK paper no less, just listed prices for various weapons. (Sawed off single shot shotguns were much cheaper, around $150-200 IIRC. Can't find the article.) Though I would guess it would probably follow the 10x markup from white market prices. Meaning that $20 box of WWB could go for $200 in the UK.

Still more money to be made smuggling Heroin, though the prices of that have been falling lately thanks to the glut from Afghanistan. (Yes, there is a strong drug market even in North Dakota, though I don't partake anymore.) On the other hand, drug dogs don't sniff for gunpowder.
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Old October 20, 2008, 11:04 PM   #50
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There is a media compaign on right now to get just this done.

Guns are being demonized yet used as tools to sell advertising space by the same people.

Lawful gun owners are portrayed as reckless stooges,intoxicated with owning their handguns and endangering everyone around them.

People saving their lives with handguns or stopping crime with them are rarely reported then usually only with one report that disappears quickly.

All over the world,governments look at the United States and wonder when it will happen.

We are that last bastion of freedom.

No matter who earns the job of President or what Congress tries to sneak by us,We,The People must turn off our televisions,get off out butts and call our elected officials.

Make them manifestly uncomfortable with even the idea of banning firearms.

But all the complaining in the world will not help if you do not get involved.

Either you can vote and start calling your elected officials or you should shut up and get in the line to turn in your handguns.
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