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Old October 15, 2008, 12:27 PM   #1
Lance1
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Aiming a shotgun?

I have been reading this forum for a little awhile and decided to switch to my short barrel because of the cylinder bore for a wider pattern. (I keep missing the four legged predators and they come back) This short barrel doesn't have a vented rib like my long barrel, so the sight at the end of the barrel is lower than the back of the gun and if I "level" the flat part of the back of the gun, the sight disappears. I don't really have an area I can test patterns. I'm not a hunter, this Mossberg 500 was purchased for HD. If only a few pellets enter, it would seem enough so the predator won't return. I'm using 3" steel BBB mag loads on coyotes.

So what is the correct way of pointing/aiming with the short barrel as described?
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:33 PM   #2
zoomie
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ghost rings

If it's purely a land-animal shotgun, get ya a set of these. And get some lead shot.

http://www.xssights.com/store/shotgun.html

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Old October 15, 2008, 12:33 PM   #3
Slopemeno
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That's a common problem. Short (18"-20") shotgun barrels frequently need a "base" thats soldered onto the barrel to keep you from shooting high. There are aftermarket beads you can install that are taller, but they are a bit more prone to be damaged.

I'd take it out and pattern it, and I'm willing to bet you'll end up holding the bead level with the coyote's underside, or even lower at any distance.

..and +1 on the ghost rings sights. They work great.
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:48 PM   #4
Lance1
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I use steel in case the chickens eat them, you would be surprised what they eat. Will BBB mags do the job on a coyote at lets say 40 yards?

Wow, $120 for sights, that's more than I paid for the gun, 30 years ago. I rather know how to point what I have already.
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Old October 15, 2008, 02:26 PM   #5
Haz
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Or try these...

Trijicon night sight ghost ring set (with tritium on either side of the ring, and in the front sight post).
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...166&t=11082005

These were on sale a couple weeks ago for $75, but they're still only $92.
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Old October 15, 2008, 02:36 PM   #6
GE-Minigun
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Quote:
...it would seem enough so the predator won't return. I'm using 3" steel BBB mag loads on coyotes.
While I have no idea how close a coyote will allow you get get to him, I would think there is no way he would let you get close enough for a shotgun...again I know nothing about coyotes. There is a good chance he's way out of range.
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Old October 15, 2008, 03:54 PM   #7
Lance1
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What do you think of this sight? A fiber optic bead replacement, for $10.

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Old October 15, 2008, 04:37 PM   #8
Slopemeno
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It'll be a little better.

Keep in mind the threaded shank of the bead is over-length. Install the bead with blue loctite, and let it cure. Now, *making sure the gun is empty*- look in the muzzle at the part of the shank that extends into the bore- you want to remove that with a small pillar file until it's flush and smooth. Dont remove any metal from the bore, just the beads shank. Make sure to clean any metal filings out.

Oh, and if the threads are different I bet the new bead uses a 6-48 tap, available from Brownells.
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Old October 15, 2008, 05:21 PM   #9
darkgael
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choke

Lance: A good friend of mine is an avid coyote hunter and trapper. His needs may be different than yours. He uses an 11-87 with a 28" barrel and an extra full choke and lead pellets. You cannot use that choke with steel but you may want to tighten the choke as much as possible and forget about the wide pattern. Set up something at the place that you intend to shoot and practice a bit. Accuracy will come to you.
Pete
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Old October 15, 2008, 05:37 PM   #10
oneounceload
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point the gun at your target and pull the trigger - if your hands are properly placed, they will naturally guide and "point" you at the target
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Old October 15, 2008, 05:52 PM   #11
Lance1
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Sorry, what does 11-87 mean?

My "hunting" is close range, 20-120 feet. I use steel shot because my chickens roam free and may eat the shot and lead would kill them. I need a wider pattern because a couple of days ago I missed a coyote at 20 feet, (hip shot). Ya, laugh at this, but predators appear when least expected and it's always a big fat hurry to do something about it, because I'm trying to stop the chickens from being eaten. (BTW, I'm new to country life)

"point the gun at your target and pull the trigger"
My quest is how to point the gun. Is the front bead suppose to be on the target?
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Old October 15, 2008, 05:56 PM   #12
ActivShootr
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11-87: Remington model 11-87, a semi-auto or autoloading shotgun.

Shoot it more Lance. Set up some targets at various distances and see how your shotgun patterns with different shot sizes and loads.
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:06 PM   #13
Lance1
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Still, how is one suppose to line up the sight? I can't really practice if I don't know how to aim it.
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:11 PM   #14
rantingredneck
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One doesn't aim a bead sighted shotgun. You point it and pull the trigger. If your form is proper and the gun remotely fits you properly the bead will fall into place. Your eye is the rear sight, not anything on the receiver if that helps explain it.

Practice, even if it's just shooting milk jugs in the backyard, will help you with this.
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:19 PM   #15
GoSlash27
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My buddy ran into the same problem with his Mossie 500 this last weekend. His heat shield obscures his bead so it shoots way high.
What you want to do is have the bead set so that it appears to be setting on the receiver when you view it. IOW, you need your bead to sit taller.

How to aim it:
Sight down the top of your receiver so that your eye is perfectly level with the receiver. Your short barrel may make it impossible for you to see your bead that way, but it should appear to sit on the receiver when viewed that way...
_ _o_ _
When properly adjusted, the shot will go exactly where the bead is. Most shooters sight from slightly above the receiver and the shot goes proportionally above the bead.
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:28 PM   #16
Lance1
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Ah, I think this is what I'm seeking. I assume receiver = target. I don't know what IOW means. Lets use a vented barrel for simplicity since I can see the bead on this. So I level the top of the vent even with the target and the bead should sit in the center of the target? My eye should be the same distance above the rib as the bead?
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:31 PM   #17
dalecooper51
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Lance -

I would definitely spend some time patterning your shotgun. Get a large piece of butcher paper or something similar and put a dot in the center of it and give it a shot. I would do it 4 or 5 times on fresh paper with your load of choice. This will show you Point of Impact versus Point of Aim and it will also show you how the load choke combination is patterning. After this I would set up some targets at different distances and have some fun practicing.

Dale
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:36 PM   #18
oneounceload
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IOW= In Other Words

IF your gun fits you, you should be able to pick a spot, say on your LR wall, (gun unloaded), close your eyes, mount the gun, open your eyes and be looking at that spot. If not, then your gun will need some fit adjustments

STOP worrying about the rib, bead or anything else - set up a pattern board outside, and shoot your load at a central spot and then see where the pattern hits - high, low, right, left??....see where it is....
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:39 PM   #19
oneounceload
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BTW, if it were me, I'd use a rifle for coyotes
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:52 PM   #20
Lance1
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I understand the substance of pattering that most are pointing out, but if not sighting the down the rib and bead, it sounds like a hip shot to me.

GoSlash27 sounds to be right on the money what I'm trying to find out.

"BTW, if it were me, I'd use a rifle for coyotes"

If I can't hit it with a shotgun, what is my chances with a rifle.

Wanted to add; I'm a beginner, you experienced guys can be one with your shotgun, but I'm starting from square one.
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Old October 15, 2008, 07:44 PM   #21
oneounceload
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if coyotes are further than 30 yards....seriously, use a rifle - a nice 17HMR, .223 or similar.....call them in, put your scope wjere it needs to be and kapow!.....one fur for the furrier - actually, if you're trying to "aim" a shotgun like a rifle, use a rifle

shotguns are pointed, rifles are aimed

I shoot a little shotgun, only about 10 - 15,000 rounds a year - not a lot by any means - and I can tell you from that limited experience that I do not see the bead when the target gets launched, I see the target - and if my hands are properly placed, my "head on the stock, eye on the rock", the targets breaks every time.....my challenge is repeating that action consistently every time.....
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Old October 15, 2008, 07:48 PM   #22
zoomie
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Sounds like more than anything you need some quality instruction. Or at least to watch someone else shoot a few rounds. Where are you? Any ranges nearby? As intimidating as it might be, I think you really need to go to a range or club and just start watching and ask for help. Forums are good for tweaking and honing techniques, but text is not the best medium for square 1 instruction.
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Old October 15, 2008, 08:54 PM   #23
hogdogs
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While your head set will affect the aim... try this... Using cheap low power bird shot set up a target. I use real estate type sign of corrugated plastic on the wire stand. Mount the gun as you do and raise the barrel til you see the bead... now pick a spot on the sign. Left and right don't matter yet. do this from close up to punch a hole not spread the shot. Around 12-15 feet should work. Were you way off high or low? After you get pretty close to your poa... switch to CHEAP slugs and step back to 30 than 50 feet... Now where are they landing?
for me to hit doves with my short barrel like yours is set up from 20 yards or so I have to put a 3/4 inch gap as you see it 'tween my bead and the bird with the bird above the barrel.
Hope this of some use to you... Just a redneck tryin' to help!
Brent
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Old October 15, 2008, 09:05 PM   #24
Lance1
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This is what I mean, you guys are experts, I'm a beginner. How about thinking back when you were at my status? From what I'm gathering you guys can point a shotgun as if it was your arm and hit the target. I have to start with how to point. What is the bead there for if it has no use?

Yes I need instructions, that is why I'm here, no, I don't have a range near by.

What is the difference between pointing and aiming besides the firearm?
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Old October 15, 2008, 09:32 PM   #25
hogdogs
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Actually regarding your last setence... There is no difference in the weapon. You can point or aim any weapon including a knife. You can acclimate to a ,22lr with missing sights and still pick off squirrels real well.
Now these fellas that are good at skeet are the hot shots at "pointing". But for us lesser shooters the basic difference is aiming requires you spot the target, mount the gun, find front and rear reference points on the gun (even a single bead uses a rear reference point to aim) align to target than fire. First thing to do in learning to point is to safely practice with an empty gun so that with your eyes closed you pick up the gun and mount it and when you open them you are pretty close. That is what makes the shot gun versatile with a simple front bead. My point of view on my gun is I am seeing the flat on top of the receiver and the bead. I am aiming with slugs and 00 buck out to the distance of hunting but not at home defense distance or for flying birds which are point targets for me.
If I am not clear please feel free to copy and paste the confusing part and I will try to help. Also I am not any kind of expert nor instructor...
Brent
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