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Old October 12, 2008, 09:59 PM   #1
B.N.Real
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Can rifles and shotguns be direct shipped to a home?

Just asking.

I know that handguns need to go through a gun dealer but are the rules the same for shotguns and rifles?

This is about buying shotguns and standard hunting rifles off of retailers on the internet.
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Old October 12, 2008, 10:17 PM   #2
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The answer to your question is no, they can't be shipped direct to your home. Any firearm purchased online by you must be sent to a FFL holder. You will have to provide the seller with a signed copy of a FFL in order for the seller to ship to that FFL. You then pick up from the FFL holder after completing a form 4473.
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Old October 13, 2008, 12:12 AM   #3
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ther are exceptions sodbuster.
1) If a private transaction occurs between residents of the same state, a direct shipment to the seller's home is OK.
2) If a person is shipping a weapon to themself in care of another person, it's OK even in another state as long as the package remains unopened and is stored securely.
3) If a person ships a weapon out to be repaired it can be shipped directly back to them by the FFL holder.
4)If a person has a C&R license they can recieve C&R guns.
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Old October 13, 2008, 06:47 AM   #4
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I thought there were exceptions, ISC, such as CMP which I didn't really consider retail. Do some of these depend on state law? I really don't know, but preferred to be safe instead of sorry.
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Old October 13, 2008, 07:41 AM   #5
rzach
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i sent a 686 to s&w 2 weeks later ups left it with my pal next door. ups picked it up at my house .
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Old October 13, 2008, 10:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rzach
i sent a 686 to s&w 2 weeks later ups left it with my pal next door. ups picked it up at my house .
Federal law allows you to send your firearms off for repair and for their return directly to you.
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Old October 13, 2008, 11:18 AM   #7
chris in va
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Quote:
Do some of these depend on state law?
IIRC it's pretty much a federal thing.
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Old October 13, 2008, 01:45 PM   #8
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some states like Kalifornia require EVERY sale/transfer to go through an FFL. I'm sure there are others too. The bastards.
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Old October 13, 2008, 03:56 PM   #9
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If you are buying and/or "transferring" a firearm between owners, including long guns, and it crosses a state line, it must go through at least one FFL. Depending on your state laws, you may be able to purchase a long gun in any state from an FFL in that state, while you are physically in that state, and bring it back home with you. Handguns must go through a FFL in your home state.
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Old October 13, 2008, 04:29 PM   #10
nalioth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkmp5sd
If you are buying and/or "transferring" a firearm between owners, including long guns, and it crosses a state line, it must go through at least one FFL. Depending on your state laws, you may be able to purchase a long gun in any state from an FFL in that state, while you are physically in that state, and bring it back home with you. Handguns must go through a FFL in your home state.
No sir.

You can send long guns or hand guns to any other resident of your state who is legally able to own same (Federal law).

The caveat is: An unlicensed individual ( w/o an FFL ) cannot send hand guns though the US Mail, so must use a common carrier and dance to their tune when sending hand guns to other state residents.
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Old October 13, 2008, 05:02 PM   #11
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No sir.
Please note that I said, "and it crosses a state line." That tends to eliminate sending to a resident of your state.
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Old October 13, 2008, 05:28 PM   #12
Don H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
You can send long guns or hand guns to any other resident of your state who is legally able to own same (Federal law).
This also won't work in those states that require all transfers to go through an FFL. State firaarms laws can be more restrictive than federal firearms laws.
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Old October 14, 2008, 08:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
ther are exceptions sodbuster.
1) If a private transaction occurs between residents of the same state, a direct shipment to the seller's home is OK.
2) If a person is shipping a weapon to themself in care of another person, it's OK even in another state as long as the package remains unopened and is stored securely.
3) If a person ships a weapon out to be repaired it can be shipped directly back to them by the FFL holder.
4)If a person has a C&R license they can recieve C&R guns.
Correct, but let me add:

5) If the rifle or shotgun is purchased in a face-to-face transaction at an out-of-state FFL's registered place of business, and the laws of the destination state do not require a transfer through an in-state FFL, the out-of-state FFL can ship it directly to your home address. (Note to future readers: this does not apply to handguns.)

6) The CMP, as a federal entity, is exempt from the law and can ship directly to you. However, state registration and/or licensing laws still apply.

7) There is no federal law against shipping a gun to yourself. State laws may apply, however.
Quote:
This is about buying shotguns and standard hunting rifles off of retailers on the internet.
The caveat in #5 is "face-to-face transaction". No such thing is possible over the 'Net, so you'll need to do a transfer.
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Old October 14, 2008, 10:26 AM   #14
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Thot I'd seen black powder muzzle-loader guns offered for direct sale in a couple of catalogs I get ... was I dreaming? Still need an FFL involved?
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Old October 14, 2008, 11:19 AM   #15
nalioth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
5) If the rifle or shotgun is purchased in a face-to-face transaction at an out-of-state FFL's registered place of business, and the laws of the destination state do not require a transfer through an in-state FFL, the out-of-state FFL can ship it directly to your home address. (Note to future readers: this does not apply to handguns.)
This is incorrect. Legally, one can purchase long guns from any FFL in a contiguous state. If you are not in a contiguous state, the firearm must be sent to an FFL holder in your state for receipt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
The caveat in #5 is "face-to-face transaction". No such thing is possible over the 'Net, so you'll need to do a transfer.
There is no legal definition of "face to face sale". If you make a deal with resident {legally able to own whatever you're dealing} of your own state (where allowed) over the internet, over the phone, in a newspaper ad, etc, you may ship any firearm to them directly (comply with the US Post Office laws, please).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerbill
Thot I'd seen black powder muzzle-loader guns offered for direct sale in a couple of catalogs I get ... was I dreaming?
Under federal law (and most state laws), black powder (non cartridge) guns are not considered to be "firearms" for legal purposes.
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Old October 14, 2008, 12:09 PM   #16
carguychris
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Quote:
This is incorrect. Legally, one can purchase long guns from any FFL in a contiguous state. If you are not in a contiguous state, the firearm must be sent to an FFL holder in your state for receipt.
Uhhh, that's not how I understand it. Per 27 CFR Section 478.96:
Quote:
Sec. 478.96 Out-of-State and mail order sales.

(a) The provisions of this section shall apply when a firearm is
purchased by or delivered to a person not otherwise prohibited by the
Act from purchasing or receiving it.

subsection (b) omitted, applies to in-state sales

(c)(1) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed
dealer may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun,
and a licensed collector
may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun that is a curio or relic to a
nonlicensed resident of a State other than the State in which the
licensee's place of business is located
if--
(i) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the
licensee's premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of
the rifle or shotgun
;
(ii) The licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed
dealer complies with the provisions of Sec. 478.102;
(iii) The purchaser furnishes to the licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed dealer the firearms transaction record, Form
4473, required by Sec. 478.124; and
(iv) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully
comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.
(2) For purposes of paragraph (c) of this section, any licensed
manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is presumed, in the
absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the
State laws and published ordinances of both such States.
(emphasis mine)

There's nothing in there saying whether the states are contiguous or not. "Meet the licensee in person at the licensee's premises" is the legal definition of a face-to-face sale.

Is there some other regulation I don't know about?
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Old October 14, 2008, 03:54 PM   #17
Hkmp5sd
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Quote:
This is incorrect. Legally, one can purchase long guns from any FFL in a contiguous state. If you are not in a contiguous state, the firearm must be sent to an FFL holder in your state for receipt.
As carguychris stated, this law is no longer in effect at the federal level. It was changed to allow purchasing long guns at any FFL's place of business. Some state laws still have the "contiguous" wording and thus prohibit the transaction.
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Old October 14, 2008, 04:13 PM   #18
bcarver
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One more exception CMP

CMP will mail a rifle to your home. Up to twelve a year once you qualify.
Ammo and accesories also.
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Old October 14, 2008, 07:46 PM   #19
KChen986
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MD FFL Rifle Transfer

Hey all, I apologize for asking this question.

I was under the impression that from a private rifle sale, the seller may ship the rifle across state lines in to the buyer's state, so long as the rifle goes to a FFL. I checked the BATFE FAQ and it had implied that. Furthermore, the seller told me the same.

However today, when I went to pick up my rifle (M1A NM), the FFL started hootin' and hollerin' about how there was no FFL enclosed in the package and that I had, 'violated about 37 federal laws.' The man's wife even shot me a dirty look.

I went ahead and called the BATFE to clarify, and they stated that rifles may go to from a non licensee to a FFL, no problem. However the agent who picked up my call said to call Baltimore BATFE just to be safe....

Anyone know what the rule is on this? I wasted an hour today and the shopowner is somewhat antagonizing (I'm not going back there--ever).

I want to be able to bring a strong case on how his interpretation of the FFL laws (Must have an FFL on both ends, shipping & receiving) is wrong, and only applies to pistols.

Is my interpretation correct? (FFL needed only on recieving end for a rifle) Any help will be appreciated!
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Old October 14, 2008, 08:32 PM   #20
Bud Helms
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Not being a wiseass, but why would you aplologize for asking this question? This is TFL. 'Seems like a perfectly good question.

I believe you are correct, but we shall wait for a more positive answer.
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Old October 15, 2008, 07:35 AM   #21
Bud Helms
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Okay, go here to an ongoing thread. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314757.

I am merging this one with it.
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Old October 15, 2008, 01:53 PM   #22
nalioth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KChen986
However today, when I went to pick up my rifle (M1A NM), the FFL started hootin' and hollerin' about how there was no FFL enclosed in the package and that I had, 'violated about 37 federal laws.' The man's wife even shot me a dirty look.

I went ahead and called the BATFE to clarify, and they stated that rifles may go to from a non licensee to a FFL, no problem. However the agent who picked up my call said to call Baltimore BATFE just to be safe....

Anyone know what the rule is on this? I wasted an hour today and the shopowner is somewhat antagonizing (I'm not going back there--ever).
The law states that a nonlicensee can send firearms to any FFL holder.

However some FFL holders mistakenly believe that by only accepting firearms from other FFL holders, they are "safe" from transferring a stolen or otw "questionable" firearm (this is not so - there are no laws stating that FFL holders run checks on guns they receive). These FFL holders will tell you "it's the law", when it's really just their method of doing things.

You have broken no Federal laws.
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Old October 15, 2008, 03:28 PM   #23
brickeyee
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

Quote:
(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
The 'contiguous state' law was repealed at the federal level years ago.

Some states have NOT updated there laws however.

You have to obey both, so the more restrictive law will govern.
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Old October 15, 2008, 03:46 PM   #24
carguychris
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Quote:
The law states that a nonlicensee can send firearms to any FFL holder.
...but an 03 C&R FFL can only receive C&R firearms.
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Old October 15, 2008, 04:46 PM   #25
Hkmp5sd
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Quote:
...but an 03 C&R FFL can only receive C&R firearms.
Huh?
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