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Old November 4, 2008, 04:16 PM   #101
heyduke
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Frankly, if you go with the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, it makes even more sense to have a weapon light.
Apologies, I don't understand your comment. If you have the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, why would you go in the first place, let alone need a flashlight?

Quote:
it doesn't give me a false sense of courage, it just gives me light
My point is that for some people, given a light, they will proceed, without a light, they may stay put (pertaining to the perception of danger). As noted below, I even use a flashlight in the dark

Quote:
it's not like the bad guy is unaware of your presence.
I don't care if the bad guy knows where I'm at. I have only one point of entry to focus on. The police have been called and are on their way. The advantage is mine.

By the way, I've got 3 surefires and a multitude of other lights including hand held spot lights which I litterally use every morning and night out around the house with the animals.
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Old November 4, 2008, 04:34 PM   #102
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Apologies, I don't understand your comment. If you have the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, why would you go in the first place, let alone need a flashlight?
Because even if you are bunkered down and the presumed bad guy is coming your way, you still have an absolute need to identify the target, and to hit the target. Both ends are served if you have a weaponlight. You can shoot with a handheld flashlight or one lying on the bed but personally, I plan on being as deep behind cover as I can and that is made easier by having a weaponlight.

The principal objections to weapon lights are 1) you may use them in a search and end up sweeping a non-target and 2) they make you a bullseye. The first is a training issue and the second is less of an issue than some claim. But neither is implicated if you are holding position and letting the presumed bad guy come to you.
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Old November 4, 2008, 04:44 PM   #103
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Because even if you are bunkered down and the presumed bad guy is coming your way, you still have an absolute need to identify the target, and to hit the target. Both ends are served if you have a weaponlight. You can shoot with a handheld flashlight or one lying on the bed but personally, I plan on being as deep behind cover as I can and that is made easier by having a weaponlight.
Very narrow lane of fire to the door.

One reason why verbal communication is VERY important.

1. To let the BG know you mean business and the police have been called.

2. So the police, when in the house will know where my wife is.

By chance, if my wife hollars that she will blow anyone's f***ing head off if they come into the bedroom, and that person or intruders is stupid enough to break down that locked door (without any verbal communication as to the actions being taken and by whom), she is instructed to shoot first, ask questions later. Simple.

I do however have a Surfire by the bed. Usually for myself.
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Old November 4, 2008, 04:46 PM   #104
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Because even if you are bunkered down and the presumed bad guy is coming your way, you still have an absolute need to identify the target, and to hit the target. Both ends are served if you have a weaponlight. You can shoot with a handheld flashlight or one lying on the bed but personally, I plan on being as deep behind cover as I can and that is made easier by having a weaponlight.
Very narrow lane of fire to the bedroom door from the corner of the room.

One reason why verbal communication is so important.

You point however is accepted by myself in certain situations, but the topic is clearing a house with a flashlight, not "being bunkered down with a flashlight".

Nocitced I mentioned I have some Surefires?
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Old November 4, 2008, 04:56 PM   #105
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I understand the topic, but your comment seemed focused more on a weaponlight providing courage in general, rather than the specific scenario.

As for the bullet funnel effect of a doorway/hall, I understand. My problem is that Mr. Murphy hates me and has sent the police to my door three times due principally to misreading of addresses. He has also caused my alarm to falsely initiate once or twice. I fully trust Mr. Murphy to arrange a situation where someone I would rather not to shoot (even if legally entitled) is in my home and I want to be able to see who the person in the bullet funnel is. If they are shooting at me, great as I have sufficient target ID for said purposes. If not, then I would like a light to show me who happens to be wandering around . . . like a cop responding to a duress code I didn't know some computer glitch had sent.

Are the odds of this rare? Sure. But I consider it good training for when there are children in the home who are inclined to do as children will, and come in/out when they shouldn't.
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Old November 4, 2008, 05:22 PM   #106
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I understand the topic, but your comment seemed focused more on a weaponlight providing courage in general, rather than the specific scenario.
Apologies, seems we had a misunderstanding.

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As for the bullet funnel effect of a doorway/hall, I understand. My problem is that Mr. Murphy hates me and has sent the police to my door three times due principally to misreading of addresses. He has also caused my alarm to falsely initiate once or twice. I fully trust Mr. Murphy to arrange a situation where someone I would rather not to shoot (even if legally entitled) is in my home and I want to be able to see who the person in the bullet funnel is. If they are shooting at me, great as I have sufficient target ID for said purposes. If not, then I would like a light to show me who happens to be wandering around . . . like a cop responding to a duress code I didn't know some computer glitch had sent.

Are the odds of this rare? Sure. But I consider it good training for when there are children in the home who are inclined to do as children will, and come in/out when they shouldn't.
Perhaps I'm at an advantage, no children.

Also seems we live in different enviroments, which help form our opinions.

I live in the country, house off the road, very little in the terms of a "neighborhood" to speak. As mentioned, you can't just "wonder" up to my place, you have to make an effort to get there.

You can, and will hear auto gun fire go off in the night, with NO response from LEO's.

I've had numerous LEO's from different counties come over my place to shoot. Most are familiar with my house, and some I consider good friends.

I agree 100 percent that you should know what you're shooting at.

That said, if my wife makes a mistake, I want that mistake made in her advantage. The bedroom light is to be turned on while she waits in the bedroom. Some benifits to that having an "intruder" come from a dark hallway by chance if they try to break in.

Fact is, if my wife hollars that she will shoot someones f***ing head off if a percieved intruder trys to break in, and they are stupid enough to break the locked door down without any verbal communication, I have no qualms with telling her to shoot until the gun is empty.

I'm proud to say that I've got her nailing some small boxes with that 870 at some good distances.

Then again, in the time that I've lived here, I've never had a "bump in the night" so to speak that the dogs (my only security system) havn't taken care of (neighbors guinea hens being one of them)
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Old November 4, 2008, 05:34 PM   #107
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The purpose of a light is not to navigate your way along during house clearing--or any other time.

It's to illuminate the target an INSTANT BEFORE you make the decision to shoot. Such a light can be shined at the floor or bounced off the ceiling in order to determine if you're dealing with friend or foe so you won't end up pointing a gun at one of your kids, or Uncle Harry raiding the refridgerator. A room, or hallway, can be illuminated in this manner with enough light to check things out--from behind cover.

The light can be used in a number of different ways, but house clearing with the light turned on isn't one of them. And of course, it can be used to shine in the eyes of a known hostile target so you can see your sights. Boy can you see your sights!



This is basic stuff, I don't claim to be an expert. I'd recommend a video on the subject, like the one Clint Smith puts out, and hands on training as well.

I'd also recommend his tape on house clearing, which he doesn't advocate doing. Perhaps, the main value of the tape is to impress upon you the extreme danger involved, but it has great info in case you abosolutely have to.

My only light, at least at this point, is on my 870 for the purpose of positive ID before using deadly force.
Nnobby45 has it right. Those of us who have weapon mounted lights DO KNOW not to turn them on so someone can shoot at us. They are only to be used an instant before you pull the trigger on a BG.
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Old November 4, 2008, 05:42 PM   #108
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A general word of caution since several posters have mentioned Ayoob.

Mr. Ayoob is a member here and enjoys the same protection against personal attacks that every other TFL member does.
I have learned a lot from Mr. Ayoob. What he says pertaining to firearms and self defense, I believe it.
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Old November 4, 2008, 07:31 PM   #109
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Great thread, Really interesting concepts. I am part of the stay put, call 911 keep eye on bedroom door, gun in one hand flashlight in the other. But...my daughter, son-in law (works graveyard) and two grand kids live next door in the attached duplex to me, if my daughter calls me in the middle of the nite about an intruder, I'll rush over to her house in about .01 seconds. When my daughter and grand kids are in trouble I'll not think twice about clearing their house no matter what. Yes I agree it is not the "smart" thing to do, but sure the hell beats having to wait outside for the police, while my daughter and grand kids are being hurt. Just my .02 worth.
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Old November 4, 2008, 07:36 PM   #110
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When my daughter and grand kids are in trouble I'll not think twice about clearing their house no matter what.
Again, let's think about this. Do you need to clear the house, or will it be better if you immediately go to where they are so you can defend them?
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Old November 4, 2008, 09:51 PM   #111
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If a light on the gun is such a bad idea, then why do they sell lights for guns and why do tactical teams use them?

Why would you need a flashlight to clear a house? Im assuming that if you suspect someone is in the house then you would turn on every light you can. In fact, the first thing I do when I hear a noise in the house is start turning on lights both inside and out.
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Old November 5, 2008, 09:05 AM   #112
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From JohnH1963:
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If a light on the gun is such a bad idea, then why do they sell lights for guns and why do tactical teams use them?
For the latter, you would have to ask someone with tactical team experience.

That answer may not be very useful for home defense, but for what it's worth, my CCW instructor, who teaches the "get into a safe place and let the threat come to you" approach, has a light on his home defense Glock. You will not find him clearing a house.
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Old November 5, 2008, 03:13 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by JOHNH1963
If a light on the gun is such a bad idea, then why do they sell lights for guns and why do tactical teams use them?

Why would you need a flashlight to clear a house? Im assuming that if you suspect someone is in the house then you would turn on every light you can. In fact, the first thing I do when I hear a noise in the house is start turning on lights both inside and out.
The light on the gun is not such a bad idea. It is for target ident before firing. Kind of like IFF for pongos. Tactical teams are under a different set of rules of engagement than the average citizen. Their ROE is to locate, capture and shoot armed resistors. This puts them on the offensive and this means they will be very heavily armed and armoured. They will work in teams with sectors and will definitely have each other's backs. The lights used for this role (the same ones we have) are to blind/dazzle/confuse the opposition as well as ID the target. Tac teams are stormtroopers when they are forced into CQB, they move fast & hit hard.

When you go room to room turning on lights you present a macro target (hey the guy's in THAT room, let's go this way and get him from behind, left, right ambush him in this room when he hits the light, whatever). I would still recommend that you head to ground in your redoubt and hold on until help arrives. Besides, if you are static, this will assist the guys here to help you in locating friendlies and not shoot them.

Really, trust me on this. I have had to go through the door more than once and each time was like eating a tub of dirt. You gotta do it, but you hate doing it.
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Old November 5, 2008, 03:19 PM   #114
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From The Canuck:
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Besides, if you are static, this will assist the guys here to help you in locating friendlies and not shoot them.
Excellent point. I had not thought of that, but if you are walking around with a gun and the police see you, how would they know not to neutralize and seize you?
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Old November 5, 2008, 03:43 PM   #115
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Excellent point. I had not thought of that, but if you are walking around with a gun and the police see you, how would they know not to neutralize and seize you?
In the perfect world, you or your loved one will have given a description of yourself to the dispatcher, who will have flawlessly repeated it to the responding officers, who will then identify you.

In reality, you are likely to get shot, just as plain clothes/off duty officers do at a distressingly high rate.

Clearing a house and calling 911 aren't great in combination. If you have someone you have to get to (kids, dogs, grandmother's ashes on the mantle) during or after the call to 911 to get help, you just have to suck it up and take the risk that you may get shot while performing this task.
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Old November 5, 2008, 04:58 PM   #116
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I'm really fond of the light switch on these lights...it doesn't turn the light on until you flip the switch. It's a manual thing, like choosing between the heat and the a/c on our central heat systems.
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Old November 7, 2008, 12:28 PM   #117
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Most people who read this thread may believe that all of us are guys who live in an area where the police respond in minutes. As well, most people who read this thread may believe that everyone lives in a house that makes no noise.

In certain situations, it may not be practical to call the police such as if you live in a windy area in an old house. You cant simply call the police every time there is a noise in the house, however, at the same time you cant just sit there. Lets say you live in a house in rural Montana and hear a noise that might be caused by the wind. Are you going to call the police who are over an hour away and then apologize once they find it was nothing?

When you live out in a rural area, then the police might be hours away. Have you ever seen a police car on a rural highway with lights and siren on speeding somewhere? Even though he may be going at over 100 mph, the reality is that he may not make it to his intended destination for about an hour or more especially in areas such as Montana. Should I wait an hour for the police while there is someone in my house with my family?

In certain situations, you cant rely on the sheriff's SWAT team or the local police. In fact, there are some rural areas where there is only a few officers and you are the officer's backup. Thats why there are liberal carry laws in places like Arizona, Texas, etc. There is simply too much space and not enough cops. The police love to see civilians with weapons because then there will be more people to back him up when things really get hairy.

In some rural areas, the people who live there are rugged enough and usually know their weapons. In fact, I would argue that a man from a rural part of the midwest might be better trained and equipped then a SWAT team member from certain cities. Just go into an NRA members house in the midwest or a place like Texas and you will find they are well armed and practice with those arms quite frequently.

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Old November 7, 2008, 01:16 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by JohnH1963
...In certain situations, it may not be practical to call the police such as if you live in a windy area in an old house. You cant simply call the police every time there is a noise in the house, however, at the same time you cant just sit there. Lets say you live in a house in rural Montana and hear a noise that might be caused by the wind. Are you going to call the police who are over an hour away and then apologize once they find it was nothing?...
True, but it doesn't change the simple fact that --
  • If, you grab your gun and go investigate a noise; and
  • If, there is a BG, or more than one BG; and
  • If, he, or they, are willing to engage you;
  • Then the odds are overwhelming that you will lose (and if the police respond, you might get shot by them).
So, how do you want to play it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH1963
...I would argue that a man from a rural part of the midwest might be better trained and equipped then a SWAT team member from certain cities....
I seriously doubt that. Even in our small community, the SWAT team, who also have regular patrol duties, train several times a week as a team. They regularly do force-on-force exercises using simunitions in a shoot house. Several times a year they participate in competitive joint exercises with similar teams from neighboring communities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH1963
...Just go into an NRA members house in the midwest or a place like Texas and you will find they are well armed and practice with those arms quite frequently.
I'm sure that's the case. I fit that description, for that matter. But this isn't just about being good with your gun.

If there is a BG, you don’t know where he is. When you go looking for him, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. There maybe more than one increasing your chance of being ambushed. When you are blindsided, it doesn’t matter how good you are with your gun. You might not even get a chance to use it. See http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?t=317285& .

Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas, during the first six of these annual events, only one competitor, in one year "survived" the exercise and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.
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Old November 7, 2008, 01:41 PM   #119
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JohnH, I find Fiddletown's arguments compelling.

It is true that if you live in a remote area, you will be more likely to have to rely upon yourself in the event of trouble. However, that would not seem to indicate in favor of putting yourself up against overwhelming odds by going on a search mission and giving up the advantages of a defensive position.

It seems to me that anything that gives you better information about what caused the noise, whether or not there is an intruder, and if so, where he is, would be to your advantage, and even more so when you're in a rural setting.

A remote camera system might be an excellent measure.

Along with some dogs!
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Old November 7, 2008, 01:46 PM   #120
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In a rural setting, the bad guys have time on their side. If they mean to do you harm, they have the time to figure out how to do so. The best defense is to make it abundantly clear to them that making the effort is going to cost them.

Some friends of mine lived in rural NC, just west of absolutely nothing. They had some home invaders try the "my car broke down can you help us" routine at 2 a.m. The family turned out the interior lights, flipped on the exterior lights (spotting the blacked out van driving slowly towards the house as they did so), and bunkered down. A rather loud explanation that they were armed and any invasion would be repelled by overwhelming and deadly force caused the bad guys to flee. When the cops arrived a long while later, they informed the family that this was a crew doing home invasions, and the family was the first one to avoid getting hit once it started.
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Old November 7, 2008, 01:48 PM   #121
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If you hear a noise at night, there is a good chance that there is another BG somewhere else who sees you coming......I would stay put if I could.
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Old November 8, 2008, 02:27 AM   #122
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JohnH1963 does make a few interesting points, but as I said before you have to get you and your loved ones to the safe room and sit tight. The only time you should consider leaving the safe room before help arrives is if you have no other way to keep living. If the badguys come and go and whatever that's fine. But the only time I'm coming out of the safe room is if;

1). It is the only way to stay alive (A fire etc.).

2). The Police on the other end of the line give the all clear.

Now on to JohnH1963's comments about training. I would beg to disagree with the comment about training. To train in CQB with house clearing means a dedicated tasking of training to clear a flippin' house. A few hours at the range shooting targets does not a CQB fighter make, no sirree. When I did the training we were at it for eight weeks, that's two months of running up and down stairs, climbing up to floors where the stairs had been removed, sweeping rooms, cross streeting, weapons retention, sighting cues, visual, auditory and scent cues. Detection of the enemy in the CQB environment, Communication in the CQB environment, checking doors/windows, entering a room (Dynamic, Convergence and Un-conventional), Identifier Friend or Foe methods, Shoot-no-shoot scenarios, Hardened position access, Cover/concealment determination and the use of cover/concealment offensively & defensively, Cover fire in a CQB environment... the list goes on. Of big note, it wasn't until I had actually participated in clearing an actual house during an actual confrontation that I knew I could do it. Going through a doorway/window when you figure there's a guy in that room hunkered down ready to shoot you is not easy.

The only advantage you have over any perpetrators is that you have a better idea of the floor plan of your house. The rest of the advantages stack up in the bad-guy's column pretty damned quick.

So if you have to, HAVE TO, clear a path to safety, then do it, but remember that when you clear a path it can always be intersected by enemy activity. When you are moving you are more vulnerable. Things are always dynamic, even when they appear to be remaining static.
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Old November 8, 2008, 12:49 PM   #123
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In fact, I would argue that a man from a rural part of the midwest might be better trained and equipped then a SWAT team member from certain cities. Just go into an NRA members house in the midwest or a place like Texas and you will find they are well armed and practice with those arms quite frequently.
Better equipped, maybe. Better trained, very doubtful unless the person was trained previously in military or LE setttings. Sure, someone that has gone through Thunder Ranch several times, and made multliple trips to Gunsite, or so on might have the advantage, but other than that, no, I just don't see it. Even the average cop, not SWAT, will regularly clear buildings and homes for real. SWAT in particular will have lots of practice if nothing else doing that specific task. Lots more to clearing a house/engaging a BG than jsut shooting skills.
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Old November 8, 2008, 11:36 PM   #124
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OK guys, here goes: true story of the first time I ever "cleared" my house. About 25 years ago, I heard something fall over? Drop? Whatever, downstairs. Thinking the cat, of course, I got up and went to see, and cry over what he broke. I was horrified to see him staring at the door to the basement. Another sound, this time a rustling before something else dropped. Silence. Beads of sweat started on my forehead as I quickly opened the door, armed with my RST-6. (Don't laugh; it was all I had) As the door opened, another sound, this time indescribable, emanated from the dank recesses below. I started barking orders to the unseen predatory creature that had invaded my humble abode. Another rustling sound from a different area of the cellar. Another command, another sound. Wait a minute, I turned the lights on and another rustling, then a crashing sound. OK, so this is a real dumbass if it's a person, so I ventured down the steps and started checking for some moron that had somehow gotten himself so tangled up in my basement, he was going to welcome me just to set him free enough to go to jail. The cowardly cat stayed up on the landing steps, peering around the corner. One side clear from the steps, so I hit the bottom and spun to the other just in time to see a huge Pterodactyl coming straight for my face. I screamed in horror.

Well, OK so it wasn't exactly a Pterodactyl. But Grackles look a lot bigger when they're in your house.
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Old November 26, 2008, 09:53 AM   #125
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I believe that SWAT teams use flashbangs in addition to bulletproof gear to clear rooms.

A Marine told me they clear rooms by throwing in grenades and then follow by shooting any survivors.

The average homeowner can do neither.
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