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Old October 23, 2008, 06:58 PM   #76
MrNiceGuy
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i have trijicons, a laser/tac light, and a 20round mag

now, will i use the laser/tac light? maybe, i dont know... it depends on the situation... but if it's on the gun, i at least have the option

will i use all 20 rounds? i dont know... it depends on the situation... but if it's in the gun, at least i have the option

will i even use the trijicons? i dont know... it depends on the situation... but if it's in the gun, at least i have the option

the old adage is as true now as it ever was

i'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it
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Old October 24, 2008, 12:06 AM   #77
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thank you

I want to say thank you to everyone for making this thread an enjoyable read. These are some great opinions / suggestions. Another thanks for not turning this thread into a mud slinging contest!

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Old October 30, 2008, 09:56 AM   #78
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I don't prefer a light on my weapon for home defense.
Cops use lights because they are almost always going in to an unfamiliar place.
I know my own home like the back of my hand, and if I hear a suspicious noise I keep the lights off and investigate.
I can't imagine calling the cops just because I heard a noise somewhere in or around my house.
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Old October 30, 2008, 11:09 AM   #79
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I think a light is mandatory. where you put it is up to you, it is a good idea not to turn it on and leave it on, only use it when necessary. (your rods may vary). A light in absolutely necessary for PID (positive ID) don't go blasting away at shadows.

There is a difference between a noise or sound in your house and hearing something that you can distinguish as an intruder. I don't want to call the police on my child or 3 dogs. you have to approach the threat as you interpret it. You may hear 1 noise and nothing further and go check it out. I would definitely take a defensive posture and call 911 if it didn't feel right, but not for every noise.

Team tactics are not individual tactics, a team will rush a room and the first man can commit to go left and the next guy can go right. An individual needs to be a little more cautious.
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Old October 30, 2008, 11:27 AM   #80
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From easyG:

Quote:
Cops use lights because they are almost always going in to an unfamiliar place.
I believe they also use them to keep the suspect from being able to see them--a advantage in a home defense situation, I should think.

Quote:
I know my own home like the back of my hand, and if I hear a suspicious noise I keep the lights off and investigate.
How do you see who it is you may have heard--and identify who they are?

Quote:
I can't imagine calling the cops just because I heard a noise somewhere in or around my house.
This was discussed in the thread about the man who lost an arm investigating a noise outside. As David Armstrong said, if you're concerned enough to arm yourself, you should probably call the police.

This is repetitive of previous posts on the thread, but the preponderance of expert opinion is that you should let the threat come to you, and that you have no business "clearing your house" in the first place.

I do keep a tactical flashlight for the purpose of illuminating the threat and reducing his ability to see me.

It is not on the weapon. That's a personal call, but in my view it's safer.
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Old October 30, 2008, 11:35 AM   #81
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if you're concerned enough to arm yourself, you should probably call the police.
I am "concerned enough to arm myself" 90% of the time I leave my house.

I mostly agree with you, but there is some "gray area" between calling 911 and hunkering down in the bedroom, and going down stairs unarmed.
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Old October 30, 2008, 12:04 PM   #82
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How do you see who it is you may have heard--and identify who they are?
Well, there's just me and my wife and the dog.
My friends and family know to ring the front door bell and state who's there....nobody just comes in unannounced.
So if you're in my home, and me and my wife didn't invite you, then you're an intruder and you probably deserve to be shot.

Quote:
....and that you have no business "clearing your house" in the first place.
I just don't get this kind of attitude.
It seems that men have been beaten over the head with such politically correct nonsense for so long that they are virtually feminized.
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Old October 30, 2008, 01:03 PM   #83
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Some folks seem to have gotten the idea that it's okay to insult someone else on TFL -- to call them cowards or spineless, to impugn their manhood or their manners.

This is not so.

Those who cannot discuss a subject without maligning the folks who disagree with them about it should avoid posting in threads discussing that subject.

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Old October 30, 2008, 05:03 PM   #84
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I'm going to ask for some help from the experts here.

There are good, non-political reasons that all of the recognized experts recommend "waiting for the threat to come to you."

One that I have heard articulated is that you have the advantage over an intruder. You can get into a reasonably hidden position and cover the approach. You can see anyone approaching, but the assailant does no know where you are. That approach is safer for you, and more likely to yield success.

Can any of the experts add to that, or if need be, correct it?

Another reason was relayed to me in my CCW course. A policeman in our area heard a noise, went to investigate, found that someone was moving around behind cover in the house, and fired--to find that he had killed his daughter, who was trying to avoid being discovered having come home to too late. He had put himself into a position of danger and felt he had no recourse, with tragic results.

Any others that the experts may care to add?

My objective here is to bring forth informed discussion that can serve to illuminate the subject and help the membership in an important area, not to press or counter an argument.

If this has already been covered in the forums I have failed in looking for it, and in any event it is clear that others could use the tutorial. You may simply cite the links, if the are there.

Thanks in advance.
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Old October 30, 2008, 05:15 PM   #85
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Quote:
Can any of the experts add to that, or if need be, correct it?
I'll pass on the expert issue, but yes, you are correct. Defense is always a stronger position than assault. It allows you to select the place of the fight and control, to some extent, the lines of access by the other party.
Quote:
He had put himself into a position of danger and felt he had no recourse, with tragic results.
Pretty regular set of events. We hear about the homeowner who shoots the wrong person, and we hear about the homeowner who is injured by the BG. We never hear, AFAIK, of either of those happening when the homeowner bunkers up, calls the police, and waits.

I've said it before, I'll say it again..way too many folks on these forums who seem to be looking to start a gunfight just because they can, not because there is a real need.
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Old October 30, 2008, 05:18 PM   #86
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There are several cases of the searcher nailing a family member.

A particularly tragic one was a teenage girl who was supposed to be out. Came back earlier, hid in the closet and left the front door open.

Was going to jump out and scare Dad. He saw the door open, went in, she jumped out. COM with a 357, IIRC. She died saying: Daddy, I love you.

Saw the guy videoed - not a pretty sight.

Then there was the Louisana case of the Japanese kid who was killed because he didn't understand English and the homeowner went outside to face him. The kid was acting weird because of Holloween and in costume. The guy could have stayed outside.

There are others.

Second, I've done some home defense FOF - in one class, the burglars were skilled opponents - they easily took down the explorer defender. It is very easy to ambush the unskilled or even the skilled (if alone).

Third, even if you shoot someone righteously (but you didn't have to) there are many aftermath consequences. Police may suffer from such after even a good shoot. Saying it wouldn't affect you may be Internet bravado. Many very brave folks think it wasn't pleasant. We just finished a study of police PTSD and reviewed the lit (thanks Dave, Charlie). If you see what happens, you don't want to go through it psychologically if you didn't have to prevent grievous bodily harm.

Last, many of these discussions digress (as Pax pointed out) to a sense of outrage over turf violation and territory. So what, live through the day.
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Old October 30, 2008, 05:27 PM   #87
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I took a class that taught room, hallway, and stairway clearing in low light conditions. I am NOT a professional, but here's what I took from the experience:

* The homeowner is at a disadvantage the moment he begins clearing.

* Get off a staircase, or die. You break too many planes at once and it really requires a partner to do properly.

* The intruder generally knows you're there when you begin to clear.

* Resist the urge to aim with the mounted flashlight...You will miss! This is an easy habit to get into when under stress in a time-sensitive situation.

* The aiming area is well lit but surrounded by darkness, this makes your sights look extremely crisp. It's difficult to get used to without continual practice.

Despite having instruction, I would NEVER voluntarially clear my house. I can't even imagine how frightening it would be under real conditions. I don't have a family yet, so I would simply lock my bedroom door and wait with my gun while calling 911. Anybody entering would be at a severe disadvantage.
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Old October 30, 2008, 09:27 PM   #88
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Not to preclude any other contributions, but thanks very much to David Armstrong, Glenn E. Meyer, and 44Magnum.

I hope that these contributions will prove highly valuable to everyone who may be faced with a home defense situation. Moreover, I should think that for anyone who takes the short amount of time it take to read and consider them, they will correct any possible misconceptions that the generally recommended strategies are in any way based on political correctness or on anything else of that nature.

I really hope that anyone who is faced with a dangerous situation understands the serious ramifications, takes every effort to avoid getting into a gunfight, and avoids getting killed or injured and killing or injuring an innocent person. This is serious business.

Thanks again. I am honored to participate with you in these discussions.
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Old October 30, 2008, 10:05 PM   #89
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In the house I am presently in, I don't have much need for a tactical flashlight. I can turn on lights in the suspected room, and pretty much remain in darkness myself. My house is small enough also, that there is just not too many places to hide in a room bathed in light. It will not be my final house, but I will take pains to make the next one as much like this as possible, as it sure makes it easier to investigate the usual "bumps in the night." I have cats, so there is a lot of them. I certainly will call the police and wait in our bedroom for something I am far more certain is a break-in, rather than my normal "clearing," though.

"Tactical" switching and remotes, guys. Nothing better, at least in some houses.
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Old November 2, 2008, 04:33 PM   #90
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Quote:
People who do it for a living seem to think weapon-mounted lights are a good thing. Note the lights on the LAPD SWAT team's MP5s:
Paramilitary.

Notice how many guys have guns?

Superior firepower sometimes helps a situation.

Problem is, when you're home, chances are you may not have superior firepower, but "equal" firepower.

Bottom line, you can only shoot one gun at a time.

Funny, the observations and pictures that you posted are probably one good reason why we now have the word "tactical"" put on everything, so it sells better
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Old November 2, 2008, 04:42 PM   #91
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Quote:
There are several cases of the searcher nailing a family member.
There is also the Ragsdale case in MA. A fellow returned home early from being out of town. His alarm went off. Police arrived. He shot a police officer, thinking the officer was a burglar.

http://www.telegram.com/article/2008...48/0/FRONTPAGE

Quote:
Paramilitary.

Notice how many guys have guns?

Superior firepower sometimes helps a situation.

Problem is, when you're home, chances are you may not have superior firepower, but "equal" firepower.

Bottom line, you can only shoot one gun at a time.
None of which has anything to do with whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing.
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Old November 2, 2008, 04:53 PM   #92
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Quote:
None of which has anything to do with whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing
Yes it does and I have to assume you have no clue as to why.

Usually SWAT wears bullet protection and "goes in" with mulitple team members.

Do you

Having and using a light in a dark place, not knowing where your enemy is at, will give your position away (same as using a laser). But hey, they're cool!

If you're "one on one" (as a civilian), you can now be at a disadvantage because your enemy may get you first if you don't know their position, because you're still using the flashlight to illuminate the area looking for someone.

However, going in with multiple team members, knowing were everone is at (verbal at worst), if the enemy decides to engage (because you're using a light and the enemy knows they will soon be located), his (the enemy) position will still be given away due to discharging his weapon. Chances are if SWAT is wearing helmets along with kevlar, those first shots taken by the enemy may take a guy down, but should not be life threatning. Other team members now know where the threat is and can eliminate that threat through superior firepower.

Unlike the movies, when entering and clearing a building or room with multiple team members, it's a BAD idea to get seperated from each other for various reasons.

Also unlike the movies, "usually" the people with more guns wins if those people know what they are doing and take the proper safety procedures.

One on one, always give your advasary the benifit of the doubt.
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Old November 2, 2008, 06:36 PM   #93
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To those advocating clearing your house on your own, I strongly suggest getting some FOF experience at a reputable training center. Nothing drives home the point of how dangerous it is better than getting repeatedly shot with Simunitions for 8 hours.

I have also been trained in building clearing, and I absolutely will not do it unless I have no other choice. "No other choice" in this context is defined as either my wife or child is on the opposite end of the house from me with a BG between us.
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Old November 2, 2008, 08:27 PM   #94
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From VHinch:
Quote:
To those advocating clearing your house on your own, I strongly suggest getting some FOF experience at a reputable training center. Nothing drives home the point of how dangerous it is better than getting repeatedly shot with Simunitions for 8 hours. I have also been trained in building clearing, and I absolutely will not do it unless I have no other choice. "No other choice" in this context is defined as either my wife or child is on the opposite end of the house from me with a BG between us.
That's from someone in law enforcement who knows the subject.

That oughta nail it!

Last edited by OldMarksman; November 2, 2008 at 08:28 PM. Reason: typo
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Old November 3, 2008, 11:57 AM   #95
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heyduke:

Once again, you fail to address the issue being discussed: whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing.

Yes, a homeowner is not a SWAT team. No, I have never suggested that someone should clear a house. If you had bothered to actually read my posts, you would have realized that.

Yes, turning on a flashlight reveals your position. That is true whether it is on your gun or in your hand. By the way, flashlights (both mounted and unmounted) have switches. You can turn them off.

Quote:
None of which has anything to do with whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing
Yes it does and I have to assume you have no clue as to why.
I have to assume that you have never had low-light training and have no clue about when to use your light and when not to.
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Old November 3, 2008, 04:27 PM   #96
heyduke
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Quote:
Once again, you fail to address the issue being discussed: whether or not a light on your gun is a good thing or a bad thing.
Apoliges, usually as a civilian, it's a bad thing because it gives a false sense of courage.

Quote:
No, I have never suggested that someone should clear a house.
Apologies, I assumed incorrectly, my mistake.

Quote:
I have to assume that you have never had low-light training and have no clue about when to use your light and when not to.
Never "low light" training, however I may surprise you, and I have actually ****** my pants and realize that courage is nothing more than being able to do something while ****ting your pants at the same time

Seems that gun forums seem to get the "big balls" syndrome where, when people are armed, they can do anything because they have a gun

What most of us forget is that the brain is the most effective weapon.

EDIT: Don't listen to the ramblings of an "old man". For most, I have no clue what I'm talking about. I only sincerely request that you don't copy these last three sentences and make fun of me.
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Old November 3, 2008, 06:15 PM   #97
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First off I think we should agree that we all disagree.

Second, I find it hard to believe that everytime someone hears a suspicious sound or unfamiliar noise that they hit the "jodie foster" panic button and hunker down calling the police. Going to have to raise the bull**** flag on that one. I'm sure the local enforcement officers would tire of showing up at your house 3 or 4 times a month/year.

Third, a lot of our members must live in multi-million dollar super mansions. I live in a 1500 sq. ft home with like 7 rooms and a basement. If someone breaks in I won't have a lot of time to clear the house if they are coming for me.

Be smart, aim small/miss small. God bless
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Old November 3, 2008, 07:32 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAYBIRD78
...If someone breaks in I won't have a lot of time to clear the house if they are coming for me.
But you're still better off in a defensible position with him coming for you than you are going looking for him. When you go looking, you give the BG a substantial advantage.

One thing I find particularly interesting, in this and a similar thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=317285). It seems that most of the folks around here who have had some training in house clearing and who have done some solo house clearing exercises in that training (sometime force-on-force using simunitions) seem generally to want to avoid doing it themselves in real life. Could that be a clue that solo house clearing is not a good thing to do?
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Old November 4, 2008, 08:57 AM   #99
OldMarksman
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[INDENT]From JAYBIRD78:
Quote:
I find it hard to believe that everytime someone hears a suspicious sound or unfamiliar noise that they hit the "jodie foster" panic button and hunker down calling the police. Going to have to raise the bull**** flag on that one. I'm sure the local enforcement officers would tire of showing up at your house 3 or 4 times a month/year.
I don't think anyone could reasonably disagree with that.

Perhaps this may make sense to you:
If the sound clearly is indicative of an icemaker or dishwasher problem, a broken water line, logs shifting in the fireplace, or an unfastended screen door blowing in the wind, I'll go to it, and I will not arm myself.
If the sound comes from a smoke alarm or a CO detector, we have different drill--leave immediately.
If the sound is indeterminate, but could be a flexible lamp shifting, a book sliding off the arm of a chair, or a bag falling over, and it does not recur, I most probably would not go down. And if I did, I most probably would not arm myself. I would, however, listen for a while to assure myself that things are OK.
If an ongoing sound indicates that someone is in the house, I will arm myself, call for help, tell them where I am and that I am armed, conceal myself, and shout a loud warning.
Now, someone has suggested a remote camera system, and that sounds like an excellent idea to me. Apparently quite inexpensive.

Your thoughts?

By the way, my house is about the same size as yours--two story.
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Old November 4, 2008, 09:18 AM   #100
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Quote:
Apoliges, usually as a civilian, it's a bad thing because it gives a false sense of courage.
Where did you get that from? As a civilian, it doesn't give me a false sense of courage, it just gives me light. Well, light and a free support hand to do other things like support the weapon. Frankly, if you go with the idea that you shouldn't search for the bad guy, it makes even more sense to have a weapon light. If you've done the verbal challenge, hopped around in your bedroom bunkering down, gotten everyone where they need to go, it's not like the bad guy is unaware of your presence. And if, as many do, you have to leave the room to go get the kiddies, having a free hand to carry/manuever them with is helpful.

Quote:
Never "low light" training, however I may surprise you, and I have actually ****** my pants and realize that courage is nothing more than being able to do something while ****ting your pants at the same time
You should try it sometime. You'll find there's a place for both a handheld light and a weapon light. The handheld allows you to light up shadowed areas when necessary (i.e. such as behind the main area illuminated by the weapon light) while the weapon light allows you to use both hands. On a long gun (shotgun or carbine), weapon lights are particularly useful. Having both is always preferable if, as mine did, your sole light (handheld) goes in the middle of a shooting drill and 10 minutes before clearing a house. That's a fun experience.
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