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Old October 15, 2008, 06:30 PM   #26
Bogie
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Like I said - Let Mr. Grenade go in first. Tends to be a little rough on the furniture, but hey...
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Old October 15, 2008, 10:01 PM   #27
OldMarksman
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Originally posted by The Canuck: If you can help it, do not clear the place, get to a safe room (panic room, whatever) and secure it. Then you become the defender and they become the aggressor, moving around and making noise and setting themselves up for the fall... then call the law and hold 'em of until help arrives.
That's consistent with everything I've read and with what has been presented on Personal Defense TV.

My CCW instructor advised, "let the threat come to you."
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Old October 15, 2008, 11:34 PM   #28
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I agree that you are better to stay in your safe haven, call the cops and wait it out. That is almost always a sound tactical decision...but...

Sometimes a "safe place" is not where you or all your family members are are when an incident happens. To get to a safe place, you have to clear on the move, to make and hold a safe place, it has to be cleared.

Depending on the weapon, I either use a mounted light or a surefire with a lanyard. The way our house is situated right now, our infant is not near the master bedroom. I am planning on moving soon and rectifying this situation but this can't be fixed right now. The dog idea is also really solid. I will be adding one of those soon as well.

I have had hundreds of hours of training in CQB, low light, flashlight use, blah, blah, blah. It is most certainly a terrible, terrible idea to try and clear a structure by yourself...but for some of us...mostly those with poorly laid out homes, it will have to be done.

I stick to the axiom: "When in the dark, stay in the dark. When in the light, light up the dark." Lights should be used sparingly. As another poster stated, the power of modern flashlights is strong enough to illuminate most household rooms while the weapon is kept at low ready, etc.

Speed is also an important factor. If you need get somewhere, do it fast. While I am not advocating a mad dash, you don't need to be sneaking around on tip toes. Another valuable axiom is "To gain something, you have to give up something." To gain a room, you have just given up the room you left. You are almost always going to be vulnerable from at least one direction since you can't cover 360 deg. very effectively.

I personally believe that in some situations, such as mine, lots of noise is also a good idea. Verbal commands, comments about police, etc. Anything that I can do to put them on the defensive is a good idea. If you can distract them, even for a few seconds, that is a few seconds they aren't able to put together a plan of attack. It takes me around 6 seconds to get from the master bedroom to our daughter's room. The bad guy "knows" one of three things. 1) We are home and he doesn't care anyway. 2) We are not home and I just gave him a heads up that maybe he made a poor choice. 3) He is high, intoxicated or an EDP who, to one degree or another, is operating in a diminished capacity. In all three instances, by giving loud, clear verbal commands, I am going to buy some precious time.

In regards to flashlights, there are about a billion and one thoughts on how to use them. If you have mastered A style, try the others for familiarization but stick to what you are good at. The FBI used to teach a technique of holding the flashlight away from the body as described earlier. Most people seem to be using the Harry's (sp) or Chapman. For what it is worth, most night and low light shooting will show people with little or no training are prone to shooting high.

One tip that might also buy you some time is the closing of doors for unused rooms. In CQB you often find yourself flowing into the open room. If you routinely close doors to bathrooms, spare bedrooms, etc. BEFORE you go to bed, you will gain even more of an advantage. In my case, if a door is shut, I can bypass it quickly and get to my child's room. That doesn't mean a bad guy isn't in there, it means HE will have to fiddle with the door knob, place himself a a fatal funnel, etc, to move and not me. Every room I can close off like that helps me out that much more.
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Old October 15, 2008, 11:52 PM   #29
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military view

I Spoke with some Seals when i was in the NAVy long long ago...

They said in tranning.. they have an deal where they do something like this...

it is 4 or 5 of them and 1 guy in the place/room...

they said..... almost always he gets them first..

from that.. I used his info to build my plan should something like this happen...

Running to a safe place 1 room and keeping everyone in it...
they told me the often Loose... for a few reasons... all of which are your advantage if you are in 1 room...
you can use 2 rooms if you have 2 people with guns... as long as your aware of location and rules... so you don't nail each other..


Going to 1 room turns the tides should you have to shoot...
1.. you are aware of the location of everyone on the house... ( and have a good idea of the directions from which you will be attacked)

the person coming in the room.. has no idea where you are...
nor is he/she/it aware that you have a gun..

2. you can now use the power of scaring the CRAP out of anyone by flinging a few rounds throught the wall in the general direction of any noise coming to you.. From my understanding.. everyone runs when round fly by their head...

Just keep in mind.. when you send rounds through the walls.. you know what limits they have... and close ideas as to where they are going... u don't want to force your neighbor to loose a beer from your crazy aim...

shooting up towards the sky is ok... just the noise of the gun should make them run...


Keep in mind.. Bad guys are risk adverse... they hear a gun and can't see you.. it is not likely they will hang around..
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Old October 16, 2008, 08:13 AM   #30
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Originally posted by ice_9us: I Spoke with some Seals when i was in the NAVy long long ago...They said in tranning.. they have an deal where they do something like this...
Keep in mind that the SEALS have an entirely different objective. Theirs is to search and destroy. Yours is to save you and yours from imminent grave harm in an emergency, and if you are in a castle doctrine state and someone breaks in you can generally presume that the fact of a break-in has put you in imminent danger. Check you state laws regarding any obligation you may have to retreat.

Quote:
you can now use the power of scaring the CRAP out of anyone by flinging a few rounds throught the wall in the general direction of any noise coming to you.....shooting up towards the sky is ok... just the noise of the gun should make them run...
Careful--firing a warning shot is illegal in a lot of jurisdictions.

Quote:
Keep in mind.. Bad guys are risk adverse... they hear a gun and can't see you.. it is not likely they will hang around..
You may want to talk to an LEO who has dealt with meth addicts before relying on that conclusion.
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Old October 16, 2008, 08:33 AM   #31
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you can now use the power of scaring the CRAP out of anyone by flinging a few rounds throught the wall in the general direction of any noise coming to you.....shooting up towards the sky is ok... just the noise of the gun should make them run...
That's the most STUPID thing I've ever heard in TFL. Firing shots into the air? Through walls? In the general direction?

Can you say, "reckless endangerment?"

The only, ONLY, I repeat, ONLY time you pull the trigger is to save a life. You shouldn't be allowed to even HAVE a gun. You scare me.
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Old October 16, 2008, 08:39 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Careful--firing a warning shot is illegal in a lot of jurisdictions.
In addition to the fact that you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your weapon. Projectiles returning to Earth can be quite deadly.
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Old October 16, 2008, 10:29 AM   #33
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understand

I get your points..
my point is.. I would rather not have anyone get near me..




From what i have learned and was told, If your not ready to fire.. and the guy is a few feet from ya.. you have a problem( I forget the stats, i will find them)...the space will depend on a few things.. but I think the stats are 5-8 feet is for the avg person.. Guys are "over all" risk adverse so a small show of force is most likely gonig to help you get out of a bad bad situation... The type of chriminal we deal with will most likely be area dependent.. so my actions will be different that others...

IE .. stay quiet because they may have a gun to..

My post was an in general... I am just posting what i have been told by police officers and spec war guys i have known from the military... how good are they with their "Thinking" is to anyones opinion/guess.. i really have no idea... just posting what they have said..

And the guys I had known in the NAVY which were/are some of the best..... have said..

No matter the thinking anyone has about how to do things..

if you see the guy and your not ready to shoot. u most likely won't get your gun drawn before your in a fight.. knifed or whatever.. If you do.. your lucky, good, or loved a lot more than the other guy by God.

So at all cost.. keep the distance...

and as to me and danger I am not sure.. mabye.. My rules are made by the guys I have know who do this stuff for a living..

Now.. please keep in mind... I don't mean just shoot at anything at random.. that wasn't my meaning... sorry if people took it that way.. I was trying to make the point/I have been told by everyone to do SOMETHNG that shows force and it will more often than NOT resolve your situation..

you guys can clear rooms all you want.. I am doing what was suggested by some very good guys.. sitting my @$$ still, hidden, and shooting anything that comes near me with out introducing themselvs... while i wait for the police to show up...


My goal is to control the situation, not have it controlled for me.. Unless you train heavily and by a PRO.. your not in at advantage clearing rooms... and will likely get killed should the guy be looking out for you.. God help ya if there is more than one..


Since i don't train like that... My goal is to keep guys at a distance from myself and my family.. till the police show up..


-- As to the law --
In Georgia the law has changed.. if your life is threatened your allowed to ask questions later…(there are more details to the law, but that is the base of the whole deal, and from what i have seen.. it is treated that way..) The Crime in my area was BAD BAD BAD and getting worse. That small town(atlanta, Dekalb, conyers, stonemountain area) was starting to see drive by shootings.. and in Conyers of all places.... BUT since that law has passed many moons ago it has cleared up a ton.. People still break in homes, but not NEAR what it was.. and I have not read anything in the paper about Arrest of people who were protecting themselvs.. so BOO!! to the NAY sayers of that Law which i think was taken after the law that was passed in flordia not to long ago..

I spoke with a Dekalb officer who said he didn't think the new law was fair..
If i shoot someone, it is ok.. if he does.. It is a big deal. tons of papers, and likely his job I still don't understand how that works...
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Old October 16, 2008, 11:00 AM   #34
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Quote:
my point is.. I would rather not have anyone get near me..
Don't worry, I wouldn't get within a mile of you.

Now, what you really need to do is stop talking to your SEAL buddies and cop friends and stop reading about SPECOPS in paperbacks and start reading some gun law for your state and taking some gun safety/handling courses. A CWP course wouldn't be bad either.

Seals, army personnel, and cops are VERY different from private citizens: in their role, their training, their duty, their purpose. Start reading guys like Masaad Ayoob and others who are legends in the PD world.
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Old October 16, 2008, 11:48 AM   #35
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I keep a flashlight next to my nightstand gun. I have trained to use a flashlight to clear spaces. Make no mistake...space clearing using flashlights even done as a group effort is no fun. Usually (if not always), the point man and sometimes the second guy through the door gets it. It is why doorways are known as "the funnel of death". It is why I will not use a flashlight to clear my home. But I will keep a flashlight on my person and handy.

As for clearing my home, I will not call the police and "bunker down" for every single bump in the night. There have been numerous times where I have ventured out of the bedroom, gun in hand, to ensure that all is indeed well. That is not to say that I will investigate every noise...especially when I am fairly certain that the source of the noise is a home invader.

I consider any person who is inside my home that my family or I am occupying, whether it is for burglary or other reasons, and who is uninvited, to be a home invader.

I have thought long and hard about what I am prepared to do in the event of a home invasion and the possible consequences of action...or inaction. I have come to the decision that home invaders who do not instantly give up will be shot on sight, no warning and no questions asked. And where in the house that happens will depend solely on my choosing.

Obviously, positive identification is paramount. Because my soon to be born child will be sleeping in a different room than my wife and me, I will obviously be forced to exit my room in order to collect her. All occupants in my home will be accounted before I go for batteries release on any targets. Yes, I will likely hunker down and wait for the cavalry to arrive, but in the mean time, I fully intend on making my bedroom doorway a virtual 'funnel of death' as best I can.
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Old October 16, 2008, 11:51 AM   #36
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Originally posted by Keltyke: Now, what you really need to do is stop talking to your SEAL buddies and cop friends and stop reading about SPECOPS in paperbacks and start reading some gun law for your state and taking some gun safety/handling courses. A CWP course wouldn't be bad either.

Seals, army personnel, and cops are VERY different from private citizens: in their role, their training, their duty, their purpose. Start reading guys like Masaad Ayoob and others who are legends in the PD world.

I couldn't agree more!
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Old October 16, 2008, 11:57 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Creature: As for clearing my home, I will not call the police and "bunker down" for every single bump in the night.
Good thinking. But if ominous noises recur....

Quote:
There have been numerous times where I have ventured out of the bedroom, gun in hand, to ensure that all is indeed well.
Toward what end? That goes against the advice of most of the experts.

By the way, I used to do that too. Not anymore.
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Old October 16, 2008, 12:15 PM   #38
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Toward what end? That goes against the advice of most of the experts.
Like I said, every bump in the night noise is not a home invader. I will always check "the noise", gun in hand (out of prudence), to ensure that the noise my wife or I heard wasn't the supply line to the ice-maker popping or an electrical socket catching fire, the water heater tank cracking open or whatever. I carry the gun in case I am wrong. But like I also said, if I am fairly certain that bump in the night is a home invader, I will call for the cavalry after I collect my family. Then and only then will I bunker down.
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Old October 16, 2008, 12:20 PM   #39
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Posted by ice_9us: I spoke with a Dekalb officer who said he didn't think the new law was fair..If i shoot someone, it is ok.
I suggest that you follow Keltyke's advice and learn something about the law from a qualified source.

According to my lay understanding, the substance of the amendment was to specify that you have no duty to retreat under certain circumstances involving defense of person, habitat, or other property. It also provides you with a strong measure of protection against civil suits.

You still have to have a "reasonable belief" that use of force is justified under the circumstances. You will undoubtedly not be the final arbiter of whether your belief met the "reasonable person' standard under the law.

And also according to my lay reading of the statutes, the responsibility still falls to you to mount an affirmative defense to substantiate that any homicide committed by you is legally justified. What that will involve will no doubt depend upon the circumstances.

Do not take any of the above as qualified legal advice--seek expert advice, and do not listen to anyone who tells you that "if you shoot someone it's ok."
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Old October 16, 2008, 01:52 PM   #40
ice9_us
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Do not take any of the above as qualified legal advice--
seek expert advice, and do not listen to anyone who tells you that "if you shoot someone it's ok."
-----

I am not stupid.. And fully understand… As I Noted my post “The more details part“…
I am not suggesting it was said that it was ok to just shoot… I am saying.. If your in a serious situation and have “reasonable” fear for your life.. Your ok to defend yourself.. That officer, even when he is in the right.. Will get into some trouble.. For me it is a choice of defense, for him it is also politics.. And that, for him, isn’t fair..

----------------------------------------------------------------
In Georgia the law has changed.. if your life is threatened your allowed to ask questions later…
(there are more details to the law, but that is the base of the whole deal, and from what i have seen.. it is treated that way..)
---------------------------------------------------------------


I suggest that you follow Keltyke's advice and learn something about the law from a qualified source.
------
Absolutely.. I am ordering 2 books today.. One of which is teaching kids about guns.. I Know zero about donig that..…

Gunproof Your Children
& Handgun Primer
By Massad Ayoob


Look.. I think all this is a bit of a miss read that has gone a bit left of right… I was actually just agreeing with keltyke’s post about staying cool and out of the way… and pointing out that even PROs have issues with it(clearing rooms).. If a Guy who is as advanced as a SEAL who specializes in clearing rooms ( also backing keltykes statements…) .. Says…Unless you’re a PRO it isn’t a good idea… then it really isn’t a good idea.. It is best that you’re the one in the room since your at an advantage… it is best to follow exactly what keltyke’s saying..

I understand the statement about putting a bullet through the wall was misleading and over stated (but it turns out to be a very serious failure attempt at humor ).

I was thinking the following would help people understand I wasn’t serious:
---U don't want to force your neighbor to loose a beer from your crazy aim...


-- I think keltyke took it literal… --
That's the most STUPID thing I've ever heard in TFL. Firing shots into the air? Through walls? In the general direction?
--------------------------------------------

I am not at all saying that I am just going to unload at the first click of noise…. If that is how it was taken.. That is fine.. Either way.. I don’t care..

One thing for sure though...
Odd to have never hear of Massad Ayoob… I have a few generations of police in my family.. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! --
since I have to spell stuff out for people……
The HAHA is a nervous laugh at the value of experience of the guys I Know.. Who give advice. They travel to peoples homes for home Defense meetings, neighborhood watch.. Junk like that.. They are telling people to use a warning shot if there is someone in their home as a show of force if they simply are scared and feel they have to do something… Good/Bad/Right/Wrong.. I have no idea.. Which is why I post the nervous laugh.. I am thinking i have never heard of Massad because my family just doesn't talk about him... never had to...
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Old October 16, 2008, 02:08 PM   #41
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They are telling people to use a warning shot if there is someone in their home as a show of force if they simply are scared and feel they have to do something… Good/Bad/Right/Wrong.. I have no idea..
Warning shots are almost never a good idea.

You are responsible for the final resting place of each and every shot you fire. If you fire off a "warning shot" through the wall and it hits little Isabel in the house next door, you will likely be prosecuted for manslaughter. After that comes the civil suit.

By the way, your posts would be a lot easier to read if you used standard punctuation and learned to use the quote tags.
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Old October 16, 2008, 06:52 PM   #42
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Z-Wave

My wife and I have a little box next to the bed with a button on it that says "All Lights On." Hear a bump, reach over press the button, and lights in every room of the house come on. Anyone breaking in with the intent of using cover of darkness to perpetrate their mayhem has now got a big bright wrench in their plan.

There are several technologies that can let you do this without running any wiring through the house.

X-10 is an old technology from the late 1970's that sends the "On" signal over your power lines, cheap and works great in most houses with modern electrical wiring, not so good in the really old houses with rat's nest wiring.

Z-Wave is a more modern technology that uses 900MHz radio signals to signal the lights to turn on, and will work great even in really old houses. Depending on how many rooms you want to light up, about a hundred / hundred fifty bucks and your house could be set up this way. Plug your lamp into a module a bit bigger than a pack of cigarettes, plug the module into the wall and you're pretty much set.

The bedside control usually includes a clock / timer that can turn lights on at different times (with a random offset as well to give the lived in look) so that when you go on vacation it looks like you're still there.

If you're worried about the BG cutting the power lines, just put your lamps on a small UPS (battery backup, available at office supply stores), and you'll still be able to light 'em up even when the lines are down.

Oh and once the lights are up we apply a little "behavior modification" via 12 ga pump.
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Old October 16, 2008, 11:23 PM   #43
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Before we shipped out to Iraq my unit did a lot of courses in tactical building entry. I do agree with everyone that training that we recieve is very different from the standard citizen just being concerned with his familys safety. They are not even remotely similar. When we go in there we have a totally different set of goals and objectives in mind. Now that I am home, I am basically trying to think of ways I can incorporate the training I recieved into a good home defense strategy.
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Old October 17, 2008, 01:46 AM   #44
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Seals, army personnel, and cops are VERY different from private citizens: in their role, their training, their duty, their purpose. Start reading guys like Masaad Ayoob and others who are legends in the PD world.
Why would you discount the advise of people who actually have real world experience in clearing rooms and replace it with the advise of someone who has none?

The bottom line is that no one knows what the situation is going to be so any statement that starts with "I'm always going to do X, Y and Z" doesn't understand the problem. If you have people elsewhere in the house, you are going to have to get to them. If its just you and another, you may be in separate rooms when the break in occurs.

If we all knew where, when and how home invasions were going to occur, life would be great. However we dont. Therefore as with most things, one size fits all solutions usually won't pass the test of real life.
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Old October 17, 2008, 06:47 AM   #45
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Why would you discount the advise of people who actually have real world experience in clearing rooms and replace it with the advise of someone who has none?
Are you saying that Ayoob has no experience clearing rooms? If so, that is simply untrue.
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Old October 17, 2008, 04:26 PM   #46
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Ayoob, after a couple of beers, he'll let you know how much he knows.

ALWAYS let the threat come to you.

Know your line of fire.

Call for backup and wait.

Lights/lasers let you see a target if you know where to look, however, it also lets the threat know where you are as well (unless you own some IR stuff that's really amazing).

The number one rule is self preservation.

Military training is NOT the same as civilian training. That's the problem with cops as well. SF want a bees.
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Old October 17, 2008, 06:34 PM   #47
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They are telling people to use a warning shot if there is someone in their home as a show of force if they simply are scared and feel they have to do something… Good/Bad/Right/Wrong.. I have no idea..
Yeah, here's where we diverge greatly. In all of my instruction I have been trained that warning shots are to be aimed at COM and repeated until the threat is gone.
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Old October 17, 2008, 11:13 PM   #48
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Quote:
I Spoke with some Seals when i was in the NAVy long long ago...

They said in tranning.. they have an deal where they do something like this...

it is 4 or 5 of them and 1 guy in the place/room...
Your "Seal" buddies must have failed. In the absence of special circumstances (IEDs, heavy fortification, or maybe surveillance so that they know the exact second you're entering) a team should not have much difficulty overcoming one person. Speed, violence of action, and proper tactics are the key.

With all due respect, sir, I would guess that the people you talked too were paper warriors.
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Old October 18, 2008, 03:37 PM   #49
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House clearing and flashlights

I've been through house clearing training (Tactical Defense Institute) and night-time use of flashlight. Two points.

First, I would not attempt clearing my own house, let alone one I was visiting, unless there were visitors at risk (normally only my wife and I are present). Going through a live-fire house shooting at bad-guy targets is one thing. Going through my own house risking getting shot by a bad guy is something else entirely. Assuming it's a night-time invasion, I'd stay in the bedroom, call 911, and shoot anyone who tries to get in. If it's during the day, I have guns located around the house. I'd get one, call 911, then let the bad guy come to me.

I think putting the flashlight on the gun is a very bad idea. It means you have to point the gun at whoever you're trying to ID. There are several techniques for holding a flashlight in one hand and your gun in the other. They're worth learning. At TDI we were taught to keep the flashlight off, then press the button and sweep it quickly around the room, let off the button, and MOVE. That way you get a glimpse of the room, but don't let the light become a target.

I have night lights in several rooms in the house. They give enough light that at night I can see fairly well, but I'm in the shadows. Give them a try.
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Old October 19, 2008, 10:42 AM   #50
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I think putting the flashlight on the gun is a very bad idea. It means you have to point the gun at whoever you're trying to ID.
!@$!#!@#!

No it DOES NOT! If you have done the type of training that you described, then you know that a quality defensive light like a Surefire can light up a room when being pointed at the ceiling or at the floor. You can easily get enough light to ID a person with the bounced light.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO POINT YOUR WEAPON-MOUNTED LIGHT DIRECTLY AT SOMEONE TO ID THEM!
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