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Old October 20, 2008, 11:13 PM   #1
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a question about the guns i ordered

these are the guns



http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=251179


http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...83598#enalarge



my question is what would be the MAX charge of bp or an equiv charge of 777? i want to load as much as they will handle without blowing apart.
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Old October 21, 2008, 04:14 AM   #2
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You can't blow apart a steel frame revolver with bp, they simply won't hold enough. Even a brass frame won't blow apart. Triple 7 is 15% hotter than bp and I've never used it but I've used 40 grs. of Pyrodex many times. I've settled on 35 as the best all around load. Those Remingtons will bang your finger against the trigger guard pretty good and with the short barrels you're getting you're not going to get the full benefit from full loads anyway.
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Old October 21, 2008, 04:30 AM   #3
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Like HH said, you can not put enough Black Powder into the chambers to blow these pistols apart.

777 is nice but unpredictable for groups because it does not like to be in a very compressed state "which is why I've only used it a cupple of times" but if you do use it, I'd use a max charge of 25gr. with a .454 or .457 ball over top with the ball just touching the powder charge "for best ignition & groups."

My preferred load in my '58 with the 5.5" barrel is:

220gr. .456 Lee Cast Conical lubed with 50/50 Beswax & Crisco
30gr. FFFG Goex
Remington #11 caps
702 fps.
242 ft. lbs.
3" group average at 20 yards

142gr. .457 Cast Ball, lube over the ball
25gr. FFFG Goex
Remington #11 caps
696 fps.
152 ft. lbs.
2" group average at 20 yards

This pistol doesn't like the Wads that much as to why I don't use them in it.
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Old October 21, 2008, 06:12 AM   #4
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Maximum, or full chamber, loads are a complete waste of powder. A large percentage, if not most, of the powder won't be burned inside the gun. They're spectacular in terms of smoke, noise and flame, but very inaccurate and inconsistent. If all you want to do is put on a show, go to it, but if you want to actually accurately hit a target stay away from maximum loads.
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Old October 21, 2008, 07:10 AM   #5
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What mykeal says. They're great for fun and for shooting blanks at night, but it's a waste of powder. Greater accuracy may be obtained with lesser charges.
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Old October 21, 2008, 12:31 PM   #6
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The chambers only allow so much powder before the ball won't fit. Worse with conicals. Also, as has already been said, anything more than 40 would be a waste of powder. As with most weapons, going above a certain load just results in unburned powder being blown out the muzzle. IMHO you have nothing to gain by trying to push the outside of the envelope with a BP revolver.

It you arn't happy with that, then get a cartridge conversion cylinder for it. Then you can use 45 LC and be like your friends! That's what I did.

Harry
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Old October 21, 2008, 04:38 PM   #7
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well the cc's for these guns are on the way as we speek, the only reason i was asking about a max load is because i am moving to alaska and want to use them to protect myself from wolves and the like, i also haave a .50 cal muzzleloader for bear and elk so im good on that front. thanx guys i think i'll go with 35 gr 777
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Old October 21, 2008, 07:50 PM   #8
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35gr. of 777 will be a might much & may not be very accurate if I were you I'd limit the charge to no more than 30gr. but that is me, it'll still be plenty stought to take most any 4 leged creature out there.
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Old October 21, 2008, 09:14 PM   #9
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how would a 35gr load of 777, work with a conical? would that be more acurate? i have sevreal lee molds including a conical mold
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Old October 21, 2008, 10:19 PM   #10
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Lee makes a very nice conical mold for 1858 Rem BP revolvers. It is a double cavity, two ring, .450. Product number 90382. It is as large a bullet that can be loaded without removing the cylinder.

A conical is, in my experiance, more accurate, hits harder, and if properly lubed leaves less lead in the barrel. It makes a better seal and this reduces the chance of a chain fire. The base ring of the bullet is smaller diameter which makes it easy to set the bullet in the chamber for ramming in.

I cast mine using pure lead. I lube them with bees wax melted in a pan and cut from the cooled wax with a cutter made from a 45-70 cartridge. This leaves the grooves completely filled and offers even better sealing. I use a wad under the bullet.

A properly sized ball will leave a lead ring cut off when rammed into the chamber. I use a .454. This creates a good seal too, but a ball in a pistol has the same shortcoming as a ball in a rifle, IE it is less stable in flight than a proper conical. That being said, the best long range Kentucky rifle shots I've ever seen were with round balls, but the shooter was the variable IMHO more than the bullet.

Now, and I mean no disrespect here, if I was planning to be walking around in bear or wolf country I would carry a modern cartridge revolver rather than a BP revolver. Maybe even a bazooka!

Harry
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Old October 21, 2008, 10:36 PM   #11
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no worrys man, i do not like normal cartridge guns they kick way to much for my likes the most i will handle is my .50 cal genesis
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Old October 22, 2008, 04:07 AM   #12
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I've never used conicals in a revolver so maybe I'm talking out of my butt but I don't think you can get 35 grs. under a conical. My round balls stay under three inches at 25 yds. with 40 grs. of powder, HYMMV. If you can't handle recoil 35-40 grs. may be too much for you. They're tame compared to a modern gun with smokeless but 35 grs. will definitely let you know it's there. You'll get more recoil from a conical than a round ball using the same charge.
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Old October 22, 2008, 05:28 AM   #13
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protection

"and want to use them to protect myself from wolves and the like,"
I suppose that a BP revolver would be better than nothing, better than a .22, especially if you are comfortable with it. Hopefully, you'll never have a confrontation.
That being said, there are way better choices for walking around the wilds in AK. Raider 2000 has provided some ballistic info. Those two loads are energy equivalent to moderate .38 Spl. loads (the conical) and something between the 32 ACP and the .380 Auto. (the RB). None of those are normally considered optimal for protection against things that might bite you in the AK woods. Maybe a Walker.
Pete
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Old October 22, 2008, 06:08 AM   #14
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If he is using a measure & is measuring the 777 to Black Powder volume then yes it'll hold 35gr. with a 200gr. .450 Lee Conical with the nose of the bullet just barely below the chamber opening, but with that charge it'll kick like a mule.

.456 220gr. Lee Conical Lubed with 50/50 Beeswax & Crisco
36gr. FFFG Goex
Remington #11 Caps
764 fps.
288 ft. lbs.
Groups was to be desired at 20 yards & was prety heavy in the recoil department, tis why I've settled on a 30gr. FFFG load.

Estimate 777 @ 35gr. to be at.
870 fps.
335 ft. lbs.
But recoil will be very violent & ignition unpredictable due to possible over compression of charge & the groups will more than likely be all over the place.

BTW conicals are not more accurate than Ball by a long shot in these pistols where with identicle charge weights in my Revolver the conical can achieve a 3" average group & the ball bettering that to a 2" group both at 20 yards.
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Old October 22, 2008, 06:52 AM   #15
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The debate over accuracy of conicals vs rb's must include range as a variable. Rb's have a poor ballistic coefficient compared with conicals and so do poorly at longer ranges where aerodynamic and ballistic characteristics (sometimes called 'stability') are more important. At short range the rb is usually a better projectile as it takes the spin from rifling faster and expands better on impact.

A .44 cal bp revolver loaded with a full charge of 777 under a conical, or any other combination of powder and projectile for that matter, is no match for Alaskan big game. It would take an incredibly lucky close range shot to save your butt. It would perhaps be effective on smaller animals, but in those cases the threat usually comes from packs rather than individual critters, so you'd need all 6 chambers.

If you must carry a bp revolver, get a Walker and give yourself the most firepower you can get. Otherwise, carry a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull.
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Old October 22, 2008, 07:41 AM   #16
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Agreed Mykeal, the load that I normally put into my Pietta '58 with the 5.5" barrel or even the max load I can cram into it will be fine with Yotes, Wolves, & Mountain Lion & it may be enough to dispatch a Black Bear "MAYBE" but I definitly would not want to be dissapointed in defending my self against a Grizzley or Polar Bear, & you're right if wolves are a concern then 6 shots may not be enough when they usually attack in packs.
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Old October 22, 2008, 10:03 AM   #17
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I load 30 grains. FFFg. Recoil isn't bad with the conical at that load. Yeah, I do more practice at long range, since short range usually takes care of itself. That's why I use conicals. Remember, I'm a 1 armed shooter so recoil is an issue for me, more than most. That's why I like BP revolvers in the first place.

Movie "Lonesome Dove" Duvall gets a recoil even shooting blanks with his Walker!

Now, you could try what Davey Crockett did....you can try "grinnin'" that bear to death. It's a bit easier to grin down a wolf I hear.

Harry

Last edited by 60's Refugee; October 22, 2008 at 01:10 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old October 22, 2008, 07:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Movie "Lonesome Dove" Duvall gets a recoil even shooting blanks with his Walker!
Good acting. His Walker was a .38 spcl conversion.
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Old October 22, 2008, 07:24 PM   #19
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You caught that too.
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Old October 22, 2008, 09:57 PM   #20
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holy snit!

the walker is a big ass gun! i dont think i would be able to handle a gun with that much power using 1 gun per hand.
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Old October 22, 2008, 10:08 PM   #21
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It's interesting that in the first segment of L.D. Duvall shoots that shot glass he tosses into the air, but later in the series claims that he could never hit anything with the pistol, and then can't hit the indians who have him and PI trapped!

I guess I spend too much time watching that stuff.

Harry
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Old October 23, 2008, 07:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
You caught that too.
I caught it being a conversion. I had to look it up on movie trivia to find out it was a .38
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