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Old October 8, 2008, 10:36 PM   #1
T.A.Sharps
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Hasting Slug Accuracy: 200yrd

I have been looking at Hasting slugs and am curious about what kind of groupings at 100yrds or more are people getting? And serious Sabot Shotgun shooters seem to really like them for accuracy, but nothing about actual groupings.

My 870 will hold some varying size grouping at 200yrds with Win Partition Gold 385gr and Hornady SST. But with boxes of 5 shells, and the wide grouping 8"-12", with a flier in a box, its hard to know you have a hard zero.

Basically, I want to know if it is worth buying up a lot to test.
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Old October 8, 2008, 11:46 PM   #2
Ruger4570
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I have shot MANY slugs through my guns, some do better than others, some do a LOT better than others. The bottom line is, as I an sure you have heard, your gun will shoot some better than others. It is incumbant on you to figure out which do better or not. Regardless of how many people say this or that brand works best, It simply boils down to what YOUR gun will shoot accurately. YOU have to shoot them, find out what breand works. There is no single answer. Period. Bottom line, no exceptions it is you and YOUR gun.
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Old October 9, 2008, 04:57 AM   #3
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Here's another; I recently chronographed some slugs for a friend. The box listed 1900fps. They did just over 1700fps out of the standard 24" barrel. I'm not saying 200yrds is impossible but with the fps, weight & B.C./shape of the projectile, there are issues.
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Old October 10, 2008, 06:01 PM   #4
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Its a rare shotgun, rifled barrel or no, that will give you 200 yard hunting accuracy. I would recommend working on your woods craft, and getting closer.
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Old October 10, 2008, 08:53 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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I'll be doing some multi-gun testing on 3" Winchester XP3's this weekend, including some 200 yard shots.

Can't help with the Hastings though
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Old October 12, 2008, 12:59 AM   #6
Ricky B
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A shotgun is not a 200-yd weapon.
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Old October 12, 2008, 10:46 AM   #7
zahnzieh
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I dont care whether a sabot slug can deliver 200 yard accuracy if it costs me $3.00-$400 a bang! I have been handloading slugs and have seen what goes in a commercial sabot slug - not much- AND they use cheap crappy powder! A real cash cow for these companies!
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Old October 14, 2008, 09:05 PM   #8
T.A.Sharps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky B
A shotgun is not a 200-yd weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Its a rare shotgun, rifled barrel or no, that will give you 200 yard hunting accuracy.
What makes you say that?
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Old October 14, 2008, 10:38 PM   #9
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What makes me say that? It's the conventional wisdom.

For example, David R. Henderson, writing in The Ultimate Guide to Shotgunning, writes about a hunting companion of his who took a buck "at an astonishing 191 yards" with a Winchester Partition Gold sabot slug. He goes on to say that "This isn't something most hunters should try with a shotgun, but it does demonstrate the increasing range of effectiveness of certain loads in expert hands."

Last edited by Ricky B; October 15, 2008 at 12:46 AM.
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Old October 16, 2008, 03:01 AM   #10
T.A.Sharps
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That would be out dated conventional wisdom.

We now have shotguns capable of 200yrd, and 1MOA accuracy. To limit them to 100yrds or less makes about as much sense as it would to limit a 30'06, or 300 Win Mag rifle to the same.

I'm not talking about scatter guns here, with smooth bores, flinging foster slugs all over the timber.
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Old October 16, 2008, 09:07 AM   #11
ilbob
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I never tried any sabot slugs, but did shoot some regular slugs at 50 yards and had some 6 inch groups.

when i tried it on the 100 yard line i was not even on the paper.
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Old October 16, 2008, 09:22 AM   #12
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Sabot slugs are a whole different animal. The right slug in the right gun will give accuracy equivalent to the best muzzleloaders. We're not talking sub-moa tack drivers but 3 inch groups at 100 is VERY doable and some will do sub 2 inch groups.

"Conventional Wisdom" is often a cliche for "that's the knowledge of people from 50 years ago who haven't bothered to look at modern data"
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Old October 16, 2008, 11:17 PM   #13
Ricky B
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We now have shotguns capable of 200yrd, and 1MOA accuracy.

A MOA is roughly 1" at 100 yards. MOA accuracy at 200 yds is roughly 2". So you're saying that some shotguns can print 2" groups with slugs at 200 yds.

I don't shoot slugs, and the only information I have is from what I read, including what you have reported (soon to be supplemented I hope by Peetzakiller's report on his testing this weekend). None of the other authors I have read have claimed MOA accuracy at 200 yds for slugs. None of the catalogs of the major gun mfrs. claim MOA accuracy at 200 yds for slugs (and I'm sure that they would be shouting it from the rooftops if they could).

Based on your report, you had groups of 8" to 12" (not clear if you included the fliers in the group or if you excluded them).

So I have to turn the tables on you and ask you the same question you asked me. What makes you say that? What basis do you have for saying that shotguns are capable of MOA accuracy at 200 yds?
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Old October 17, 2008, 08:02 PM   #14
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I'm going to chime in here an say you can get at least a 4 inch group at 150 to 200 yards.I have a mossberg shotgun with a rifled slug barrel and use fed 2 3/4 copper sabot slugs.I also have a red dot sight to help me as well.The ammo is a bit pricey(12.95 a box of 5)but i only paid $169.82 nib out the door for the slug gun.I can't see paying 600.00 to 700.00 for a new rifle and 18.96 to 41.00 for ammo when i can get good results from my shotgun.

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Old October 20, 2008, 11:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
soon to be supplemented I hope by Peetzakiller's report on his testing this weekend

Check my report on the XP3s. VERY disappointed. Core-Lokts Ultra are super accurate slugs and they have the best ballistcs besides the XP3s, being only 5.2 (or 5.7, I forget) low at 200 when 3" high at 100. I sent a nasty-gram to Winchester to see what they had to say about the miserable performance of their slugs.:barf:
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Old October 20, 2008, 02:34 PM   #16
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Check my report on the XP3s.

Is there a full-blown report in another thread (where?), or is it just a summary report of "VERY disappointed."
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Old October 20, 2008, 02:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Is there a full-blown report in another thread (where?), or is it just a summary report of "VERY disappointed."

Here ya go... it's longish.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=314816
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Old October 20, 2008, 09:56 PM   #18
T.A.Sharps
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There is no one slug that is the dream sabot slug for every rifled barrel shotgun. Just because one claims great accuracy and perfect bullet design doesn't mean anything accept in the test gun they used to get the ballistic results with.

Velocities are generally taken from the highest obtained in testing, some companies use an average velocity.

I know people who have evaluated Hornady SST and found it to have a very consistent velocity, and a few who have got Sub MOA at 100yrds from it, one was with a Rem 1187, not sure what the other was.

But this does not mean you can go out and buy a box of this and shoot 1 MOA groupings just like that. Performance varies greatly gun to gun with all the variables in the "sloppy" design of shotguns. Its like voodoo and when it works it really works good.

You really need to test every ammo there is, and shoot a lot of each each type since performance varies so much box to box, and even within the same lot number. Testing gets expensive though since each box only has 5 rounds.

The best would be to hand load. I'm looking into doing that since it is relatively easy to load a slug and sabot with some powder under it into a plastic hull. That would give the best consistency shot to shot, not hoping the factory is.
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Old October 20, 2008, 10:19 PM   #19
T.A.Sharps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky B
I don't shoot slugs, and the only information I have is from what I read

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq3zp...eature=related

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky B
So I have to turn the tables on you and ask you the same question you asked me. What makes you say that?
That.
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Old October 21, 2008, 09:28 AM   #20
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Quote:
I know people who have evaluated Hornady SST and found it to have a very consistent velocity, and a few who have got Sub MOA at 100yrds from it, one was with a Rem 1187, not sure what the other was.

But this does not mean you can go out and buy a box of this and shoot 1 MOA groupings just like that. Performance varies greatly gun to gun with all the variables in the "sloppy" design of shotguns. Its like voodoo and when it works it really works good.

Hence the purpose of my testing. I have shot Hornady SSTs and they perform well in my gun, as has all Hornady ammo in every gun I have used, but I'm always on the look out for something better. In my gun (1187), and my uncles Browning Gold, Remington Core-Lockt Ultras shoot just all well as the Hornady SSTs and have FAR SUPERIOR >100 yard ballistics.


Incidentally, I sent a nasty-gram to Winchester because I feel that 14 inch group at 100 yards is a bit outside the "Your gun doesn't like them" excuse. They replied very quickly with a letter asking me to send in the used and unused ammo for testing, stating that they will reimburse me for ALL rounds. With that I am impressed. I can't shoot their ammo but that is STELLAR customer service. Plus, their Super-X rifled slugs were always the best in my 870, so I'm definately not down on Winchester, just the XP3s.
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Old October 21, 2008, 01:45 PM   #21
T.A.Sharps
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That is awesome that they are going to reimburse you, I evaluated some XP3 and it did nothing for me.

When I first sighted in my gun I got really stung, I bought 7 boxes of Hornady H2K, It would group 12"-14" at 50yards and I think I was as upset as you were. Probably more since this was my one gun purchase for the year that I was getting ready for deer season!

Come to find out that the H2K was discontinued for that reason, I wish someone told the shop I spent the $80 at that though.
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Old October 21, 2008, 01:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
The best would be to hand load. I'm looking into doing that since it is relatively easy to load a slug and sabot with some powder under it into a plastic hull. That would give the best consistency shot to shot, not hoping the factory is.
I looked into that and was not able to find a sabot that was the proper inside and outside diameter. Do you have some that work? I'm curious to try an ultra small bullet in a 12ga sabot, like 180gr poly-tip .30-06 round. I would think you could push 3000fps or more but I'm no loading expert.
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Old October 21, 2008, 04:00 PM   #23
T.A.Sharps
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I do not think they make sabots for other bullets like that, I could be wrong, but i do not think you would get the best accuracy from that, too much plastic in the equasion. There are many different sabots to try out with different bullets, but I think it works better if you use larger bullets like a .50cal.

Hastings has slug components you can buy, other places do as well. And I know of a little affordable tool that attaches to a hand drill that will crimp the shell for you, you can get it from Midway. I'm sure it will be easy enough to seat a primer with something, I was trying to find a Lee Loader, which is actual tools to do it by hand, no vice or contraptions like that needed.

I have not gone gun ho on it yet, when I find the proper simple tools to do it with though I will.

You might like to read through this...
http://www.slugshooting.com/
The forum has a lot of information on making slug guns more accurate, the sight however is still young and people do not post as often as I would like.
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Old October 22, 2008, 12:53 AM   #24
Ricky B
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About the YouTube video

I'll comment on the video, but first I'd like to add another data point to the discussion.

According to the same book I quoted from above:

Quote:
What about accuracy in a slug gun? One-inch groups at 100 yards have been achieved by expert shooters with custom guns and saboted slugs under the right conditions. ... A slug gun and load that groups 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards is a real tack driver. [p. 123]
And

Quote:
Minute-of-angle slugs and sulg guns--those that will shoot a 1-inch group at 100 yards--are extreme rarities, regardless of what you read in magazines. [pp. 130-31]
So MOA is possible, though at a reported 100 yds, not 200 yds.

Now about that video.

It's a bit peculiar, at least in terms of evidence, that the camera is behind the shooter as he chambers a cartridge, and then cuts to a close-up of the target as the slug hits home. Is what we are seeing the actual shot, or is it a "re-enactment" of something that was actually accomplished, just not at the time of the taping? Hard to say. But let's leave that to one side and assume that in any event it accurately represents what it purports to represent.

We don't know if the video represents what happens every time the slugs are fired at 100 yds or if there were many, many takes and only the best was shown.

The shooter says that the shotgun was custom-chambered by Hastings to shoot the slug developed by Hastings. That there is literally no other 3-1/2" 20 ga. like that today. It's not clear whether this gun is offered by Hastings or is simply a proof-of-concept gun that is not for sale.

But even if this gun is readily available, or others can duplicate its performance (a really big IF), there are still facts that undercut the contention that the video proves that a shotgun is a 200-yd hunting weapon.

The shots were taken at 100 yds with a sandbag (or lead shot) rest and over an open field with no vegetation that could possibly deflect the slug. It does not follow that a projectile that groups at X over 100 yds. will group at 2X at 200 yds. Certainly, that's true for handgun ammo. Bullseye competitors will often shoot a different load at the 25 yd line than at the 50 simply because the load that groups great at 25 falls apart at 50.

The shooter in the video says that they took six buffalo from 73 yds to 137 yds. He said nothing about taking game at 200 yds.

I will agree that it is conceivable that a particular gun and load might group 2" at 200 yds, but I suggest it is most unlikely. I further suggest that for hunting purposes, a slug gun should not be regularly used for game at 200 yds.

If you manage to get MOA accuracy at 200 yds with a slug gun, I will salute you, and I wish you luck in your endeavor.
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Old October 22, 2008, 10:18 AM   #25
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
But even if this gun is readily available, or others can duplicate its performance (a really big IF), there are still facts that undercut the contention that the video proves that a shotgun is a 200-yd hunting weapon.

I don't know about the gun in that video but I can speak to two guns that I have either shot or witnessed every shot at a target. One is my Rem 11-87, the other is a Browning Gold. They will BOTH shoot groups of 4-6" at 200 yards using Remington Core-Lokt Ultra 2 3/4 slugs. The 11-87 is, frankly, the only gun that matters to me because it's the only gun I use for deer. Considering that these are the only two guns I've personally seen attempt 200 yard shots and they are both fully capable, I would have to say that, odds are, a large percentage of such guns are equally capable. What are the chances that two random guns are both exceptions to the rule?

A deer gun doesn't need sub-moa performance. It's needs sub-deer lung size performance. I couldn't care less if my guns shoots 4" or even 6" groups at 200 instead of 2" or 3".
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