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Old October 7, 2008, 03:26 AM   #1
zeeshan
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how suitable are repeating shot guns for sd?

i live in pakistan and environment is getting very hostile nowadays. i was initially thinking about getting a full auto rifle for my home defense and defending myself while travelling.Then, i got intrested in repeating shot guns. i am confused. please guide
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Old October 7, 2008, 12:26 PM   #2
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Autoloaders are great for self defense. Many people say pump shotguns are more reliable, which may be true when it comes to ammunition but pump shotguns are far more likely to jam because of shooter error (short-stroking the pump, etc.) If you get an auto and determine what ammo it likes, you're at least as well defended as with a pump shotgun.

Still, I think a rifle is probably better suited for the situation you describe.
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Old October 7, 2008, 11:15 PM   #3
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In Pittsburgh, PA.. I'd go for the semi auto shotgun... Pakistan.. I'll take the full auto rifle please.
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Old October 8, 2008, 10:59 AM   #4
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You may want to seriously consider a saiga 12. It's basically an AK-47 chambered in 12 gauge.
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Old October 8, 2008, 02:07 PM   #5
zeeshan
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You may want to seriously consider a saiga 12. It's basically an AK-47 chambered in 12 gauge
what about aa12?
how reliable is saiga12? i have heard that if rounds left in the mag, they are deshaped hence gun jams?
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Old October 8, 2008, 03:05 PM   #6
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I recommend the Remington model 1100 TAC. The only Saiga I have ever encountered was not even fun to shoot because it jammed every other shot. I wouldn't buy one (yeah sure, yours works great).
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Old October 8, 2008, 05:35 PM   #7
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Hey, tell us a little about yourself

We're mostly Americans here, I'm assuming anyway, please, tell us a little about yourself and Pakistan...all we have to go on is the nightly television news etc.
Please fill us in/give us the scoop. The world wide web is exactly that, huh.
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Old October 8, 2008, 06:40 PM   #8
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The deformed shells in the Saiga-12 can happen when the magazine is loaded against a closed bolt. The pressure of the springs can deform the top shell into a bit of an oval, rather than round shape. Downloading the first magazine by a few shells may help, or using the bolt hold-open on the SA-12 or.... just get some full length brass shotshells.


I'm not sure the AA-12 is in production for consumer's to buy yet. It may never be available to anyone except for government purchasers.
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Old October 8, 2008, 06:54 PM   #9
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how reliable is saiga12? i have heard that if rounds left in the mag, they are deshaped hence gun jams?
Mine has been very reliable. I've never even had to use the second gas setting and I've fired a wide variety of shells through it.

I've left 10-round mags loaded with a full 10-rounds and fired them six months later without any problems. The magazines are hard to load against a closed bolt, but if I was going to carry it, I would just snap in a mag with the bolt held back, chamber a round, put the safety on, and forget about it. 11 rounds of 12ga is better than 10, but not by so much that I would worry about it.

I wouldn't change the procedure for the Russian 8-round mags either. 9 is better than 8, but 8 is pretty good and loading on a closed bolt is tricky at best, impossible at worst. Seems to be the nature of the beast.

Outstanding shotguns.
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Old October 12, 2008, 12:07 AM   #10
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zeeshan,
If I were in your predicament, I'd think about getting a shotgun AFTER I got a full auto rifle for SD.

A shotgun is an excellent short range tool.
A full auto capable rifle is a great short range AND a great long range tool.

Also, you'll nearly always have more rounds at your immediate disposal with the rifle than with any shotgun. More bangs per magazine is always a good thing!
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Old October 12, 2008, 06:03 AM   #11
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feel free to ask

Quote:
We're mostly Americans here, I'm assuming anyway, please, tell us a little about yourself and Pakistan...all we have to go on is the nightly television news etc.
Please fill us in/give us the scoop. The world wide web is exactly that, huh.
i am ot much of a tour guide person. thoug ou wanth i will try my best to answer your queries.what do you want to know?
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Old October 13, 2008, 02:22 AM   #12
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I recommend the Remington model 1100 TAC. The only Saiga I have ever encountered was not even fun to shoot because it jammed every other shot. I wouldn't buy one (yeah sure, yours works great).
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nice recommendation. liked it
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Old October 14, 2008, 05:37 PM   #13
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da Scoop-a-roo

Shrugging my shoulders, I don't know (regarding how are things over there), like how's biz, how's things, you know, the scoop. Are you living in a downtown like area or rural area?
Someone posted a good one, think about an AK or something first, well, that would depend somewhat on your locale/size of your abode etc. Out on the range, as we say here in Texas, I'd opt probably for a semi auto rifle, where you are change that to a machine gun, no just kidding but distance is everything in my opinion as to your self defense needs. For instance, how many parties (people) are involved at a given time in your situation of bad guys? A squad strenght? An occassional loose canon or two only? These are the types of threats I'm sure most would agree would dictate your defense arms-to some degree, distance etc being another.
SO, give us the scoop buddy.
REgarding your question about what I'm assuming is auto loaders, "repeating"? Outside of a Browning A5 I'm not sure I would want to put my life on the line on the gas operated autos, no expert here, just remember back in the day duck hunting Remington 1100's and the like screwing up when gunk gets in the system, not sure if this is a gas seal problem or not, most around here in this forum tend to lean towards pump action shotguns for defensive purposes, me included.

Last edited by Katrina Guy; October 14, 2008 at 05:48 PM. Reason: additional text
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Old October 14, 2008, 07:48 PM   #14
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zeeshan,

Some questions first.

- Are you likely to be defending against 1-2 attackers? Or more?
- How close are your neighbors? Are you in a city setting or a farm/countryside setting?
- How is the availability of 12-gauge "Buckshot" shells?
- Are you planning on someone else also using the gun? Wife? Son? Father?

To be effective, shotguns should be loaded with "buckshot" loads. These are pellets between 6.10mm - 9.18mm.

Depending upon barrel length and whether or not the shotgun has a choke, you can still miss with a shotgun. But if you make a hit at close range it can be devastatingly effective.

Most semi-auto shotguns are designed for hunting birds and may require more maintenance. Pump shotguns are less maintenance intensive, but if you buy a pump, make sure it has two 'action bars' connected to the pump fore-end.

A full-auto rifle typically has a 30-rd magazine. An 8-shot 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 2-3/4" (70mm) #00 Buckshot shells holds (9 pellets/shell x 8 shells=) 72 projectiles.

Recoil can be stout with a shotgun and not everyone will be able to rapid-fire with a shotgun.

The shotgun's range is limited (75-100m) and shot tends to lose velocity much faster than a rifle round. This is good if you live in urban areas, bad if you live in the country. Rifle rounds like the 7.62x39 will penetrate many walls easily and can be lethal over 1km.

Studies by the U.S. military finds that full-auto weapons are not always beneficial. Aimed, semi-automatic fire is usually more effective and conserves ammo. Burst-fire (3-4 shots) is more effective in close quarters in taking down a hostile target. Full-auto fire is normally used to suppress opposing fire while friendly forces move closer or when attacking opposing forces who wholly possess a confined space (i.e. there aren't any non-combatants there).

I hope some of that helps.
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:10 AM   #15
zeeshan
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Quote:
zeeshan,

Some questions first.

- Are you likely to be defending against 1-2 attackers? Or more?
- How close are your neighbors? Are you in a city setting or a farm/countryside setting?
- How is the availability of 12-gauge "Buckshot" shells?
- Are you planning on someone else also using the gun? Wife? Son? Father?

To be effective, shotguns should be loaded with "buckshot" loads. These are pellets between 6.10mm - 9.18mm.

Depending upon barrel length and whether or not the shotgun has a choke, you can still miss with a shotgun. But if you make a hit at close range it can be devastatingly effective.

Most semi-auto shotguns are designed for hunting birds and may require more maintenance. Pump shotguns are less maintenance intensive, but if you buy a pump, make sure it has two 'action bars' connected to the pump fore-end.

A full-auto rifle typically has a 30-rd magazine. An 8-shot 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 2-3/4" (70mm) #00 Buckshot shells holds (9 pellets/shell x 8 shells=) 72 projectiles.

Recoil can be stout with a shotgun and not everyone will be able to rapid-fire with a shotgun.

The shotgun's range is limited (75-100m) and shot tends to lose velocity much faster than a rifle round. This is good if you live in urban areas, bad if you live in the country. Rifle rounds like the 7.62x39 will penetrate many walls easily and can be lethal over 1km.

Studies by the U.S. military finds that full-auto weapons are not always beneficial. Aimed, semi-automatic fire is usually more effective and conserves ammo. Burst-fire (3-4 shots) is more effective in close quarters in taking down a hostile target. Full-auto fire is normally used to suppress opposing fire while friendly forces move closer or when attacking opposing forces who wholly possess a confined space (i.e. there aren't any non-combatants there).

I hope some of that helps.
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-attackers can be 1 or 2 or may be more
- i have to move in both urban and rural areas
-buckshot shells are easily available here in pakistan
- i will use the gun by myself only
Quote:
make sure it has two 'action bars' connected to the pump fore-end
what you mean by this?
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:41 AM   #16
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Some shotguns have a single bar running down one side of the gun connecting the forend to the breech block/bolt assem. some shotguns use two one down each side of the gun.

Two are better than one in way of durability.
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Old October 15, 2008, 01:00 AM   #17
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Some great, classic pumps had only one action bar. A Winchester Model 97, Model 12 or an Ithaca 37 are fine guns. Two are *probably* better, but it's not a deal breaker for me.
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Old October 15, 2008, 01:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
-attackers can be 1 or 2 or may be more

To tell you the truth in a rural area i would have whatever i expected the BG's to show up with.

If its AKs get an AK

If its shotguns get a shotgun.

If both have both.

That way resupply is only a victory away. You will have ammo for your weapon(s).
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:06 PM   #19
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i think both if you can afford it. i would seriously look into a pump over a semi. but maybe a benelli if u really want a semi.

who exactly are you trying to protect yourself from? I know little to nothing about your land.

You may want to talk to Firepower! i think hes from your neck of the woods.

T
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Old October 15, 2008, 10:38 PM   #20
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Zeeshan, Id like to ask a few questions after my comment. As someone else posted id have one of each and the 12 ga would be my preferred tool for home protection.


How available are arms to the public over there? I know AKs are plenty, what other types of arms are available ?
Are their any regulations for owning/carrying weapons there?
In USD what does a typical AK cost over there? How much is 7.62 ammo?
What is the Pakistan peoples take on the war going on over there, do they view it as positive for them, or as bad for them?
What is their view of the USA overall? Whats the average income there and what are the main occupations ?
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Old October 16, 2008, 08:03 AM   #21
zeeshan
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pics

Quote:
Some shotguns have a single bar running down one side of the gun connecting the forend to the breech block/bolt assem. some shotguns use two one down each side of the gun.

Two are better than one in way of durability.
can you please post some pics for my better undersanding ?
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Old October 16, 2008, 08:37 AM   #22
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answers

Quote:
Zeeshan, Id like to ask a few questions after my comment. As someone else posted id have one of each and the 12 ga would be my preferred tool for home protection.


How available are arms to the public over there? I know AKs are plenty, what other types of arms are available ?
Are their any regulations for owning/carrying weapons there?
In USD what does a typical AK cost over there? How much is 7.62 ammo?
What is the Pakistan peoples take on the war going on over there, do they view it as positive for them, or as bad for them?
What is their view of the USA overall? Whats the average income there and what are the main occupations ?
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1. they are not easily available. in fact its really really hard to get authorization from government for keeping any rifle other than.22 calibre. one can get authorization/licence for handguns easily though.
2. AKs are plenty but , once again bad guys have easy access rather than law abiding citizens like me, who need licences from government( i know its ironic).
3. cost of low quality basic ak is around 1250 us dollars. but one needs to spend about twice the cost for acquiring the licensce first. the cost one round is about 50 cents.

4.pakistanis are peace loving people and they consider war as the last option. pakistanis are being dragged into war by foreigners.pakistanis love there country and civilians might take arms against foreign intruders like taliban from afghanistan and alqaeda etc. but once again they just want peace.nearly all of pakistanis are scared/horrified and mentally distrubbed because of the war. no pakistani wants to take one the war but they will if they are put into the situation but its a really bad thing for them.

5. i know it might be hard for you and other members to believe what i am about to say but more than 90 percent pakistanis like usa. pre 911 , usa was one of the most liked and idealised nation by pakistanis.
preamptive attack on iraq for WMDs caused lot of resentment. i honestly believe liberation part of the offensive was true . saddam was a cruel dictator but i failed to understand why usa lied about wmds? liberation of people was good enough cause. they ruined there case themselves. anyways, majority of iraqis feel liberated and if usa pulls out smoothly, they will be thankful. when iraqis are happy with usa then there is no point for pakistanis for any resentment.

attack on afghanistan was well justified by usa. but why usa dragged pakistan into the war? it was not fair. anyways, i fail to understand how come a might us army cant control flow of militants on afghan and pakistan border? we pakistanis have always been allies with usa in all history. we helped usa defeat ussr in afghanistan and were deserted by usa. we took care of afghan refugees for years and years even though we are poor nation.most of talibans are descendants of those afghan refugees. pakistan was a poor nation , hence couldnt educate the refugees or rehabilitate them properly ,so they joined alqaeda. only if usa had helped pakistan rehabilitate them, things could have been far better today. anyways, usa citizens should not totally rely on ther government policies and take personal intrest in paakistan matters. believe me the actuall picture is quite dufferent from whats shown on media. NO pakistani hates usa citizens period! but the usa government and citizens need to differentiate between a friend and a foe . please raise voice to your elected memebers to stop haraassing pakistan by blaming pakistan for doing less. we have done more than our capacity .please understand that pakista army is not fighting just american war , it is also fightng for pakistan . terrorism is as bigger threat to pakistan as it to usa. please help us not dictate us . things could get much better if usa does one thing , that is movement of afghans into pakistan from afghanistan. we can take care of our problems but just seal the border and dont bomb pakistani soil because it will only create resentment against usa .
secondly, please open trade with pakistan as we are in worst ecnomic crunch.

i dont have stats for average income or main occupation but pakistann is a poor country
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Old October 16, 2008, 02:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Quote:
Some shotguns have a single bar running down one side of the gun connecting the forend to the breech block/bolt assem. some shotguns use two one down each side of the gun.

Two are better than one in way of durability.
can you please post some pics for my better undersanding ?


Here is a quick and dirty pic of my Remington 870. Pictured is one of the two bars. It is smack in the middle between the barrel and the shell tube. In the upper right of the pic shows part of the foregrip with the bar attatched to it. There is another bar on the other side of the shotgun.

I hope this helps!
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Old October 16, 2008, 06:59 PM   #24
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You have a short memory.

Let me set you straight regarding US invasion/occupation/war (so called) against Iraq as relates to the reason that you don't seem to get, WMD.
TO refresh your memory, it was Saddam who fudged constantly on the no fly zone which he agreed to as Gulf War I treaty, he agreed also to allow unimpeded UN Weapons Inspectors, he fudged on that too and finally took it upon himself to boot the Inspectors out of the country. In a post 911 America or world even, to any logical person that can reason, by booting the inspectors out, he must be hiding something. Now whether he had them to hide or just wanted to show off to his Arab neigbors by defying the US, well..., and don't forget he agreed to the terms! It was Clinton that did NOTHING as a result of this Saddam act, leaving another administration to deal with it. Imagine JFK turning a blind eye to the Missiles in Cuba!???
He eluded by kicking the inspectors out that he had something to hide, this is a no brainer to any sane person.
It's like a parent asking a child, what are you holding behind your back? Answer from child, oh nothing. Well any parent would conclude that the youngster was indeed hiding something. One word to explain it all, DUH.
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Old October 16, 2008, 07:56 PM   #25
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Thanks for the informative reply ZEESHAN.....
I will admit its not what I expected. The media is to blame mostly though. The news pictures we get here it seems shows many people of all ages (10-11up) carrying AKs open in the streets. I assumed that there were little or no restrictions.

As for the WMDs, its proven he had chemical agents, did he have a huge arsenal of ICB Nukes laying around? probably not, but he did have 6+ months advance warning to sell hide or destroy anything he did have? Yes.

Myself alone with a decent sized track hoe and a weeks time could bury a LOT of things in the sand and by the time the wind blew the next day you would never know it had been disturbed.
Do I think any of us will ever find out everything they had? No
I do think in time more will be found or more people will come forward with what they know.
Again, I appreciate the response
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