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Old October 6, 2008, 11:25 PM   #1
Flatcat
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Sauer & Sohn model1913

I have inherited a Sauer & Sohn model 1913 6.35mm, (25 acp), serial # 99xx. On the left side of the slide it is stamped R.F.V. 31, both magazines are also marked with the 31 and roman numerals 1 and 2. The pistol is in quite nice condition. I'm curious as to its age and the RFV markings. Also the flap holster that came with the pistol is very dry almost brittle, any advice for how to restore some of the holsters flexibilty.

Last edited by Flatcat; October 7, 2008 at 12:14 AM.
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Old October 7, 2008, 12:52 PM   #2
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Flexibility of the leather can be enhanced by washing it with saddle soap, then rubbing a wax-based waterproofing like Sno-Seal into it. Do not use neatsfoot oil or mink oil as this will soften it too much and may rust the pistol.
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Old October 7, 2008, 04:55 PM   #3
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"RFV" stands for Reichsfinanzverwaltung, the Nazi German equivalent of the U.S. Treasury Department. Like its American counterpart, it had armed agents to enforce the law.

Jim
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Old October 7, 2008, 08:12 PM   #4
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Thanks for the info on both the holster and pistol. Not much chance of the holster causing the pistol to rust, I dont store it in the holster. Both are locked safely away in the safe. Thanks again.
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Old October 10, 2008, 09:22 AM   #5
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Flatcat,

as already mentioned by Jim, RFV stands for Reichsfinanzverwaltung. To this authority also belonged the customs services (Zoll in German). To these officers your Sauer 1919 did belong.

BTW: some collectors do use the term "model 1919" for the smaller version of the 1913. It is assumed, that the model 1919 in .25 cal. came out in 1919.

It isn't easy to make a statement, when your pistol was made. Based on serial number studies I'd say approximately (!) in 1921.

Your's is a first variation with an added "Zusatzsicherung" (additional safety), at least, I bet it has a Zusatzsicherung. All Sauers of the police and of the Zoll were amended in the twenties and in the thirties by adding the Zusatzsicherung. This is a small spring arranged oblique to the safety lever. Check out this photo, where I explained this:

http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...26_30600-3.jpg

Normally, the first variation (SN 1 to 30,000 app.) don't have the Zusatzsicherung, except for the police and Zoll variations. Regularly, the Zusatzsicherung started with the second variation at SN 30,000.

BTW: a friend of mine is currently writing a book about German police markings of the Weimar period. He also lists all known RFV pistols. For this purpose, the full SN would be helpful and I'd appreciate it, when you would tell me the SN.

Best regards

Martin
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Old October 10, 2008, 05:09 PM   #6
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Again thanks for the info. My pistol does not have the Zustzsicherung as shown in the photo. The complete serial # is 9991.
Maybe I can get one my kids to show my how to work a digital camera and post a photo.
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Old October 11, 2008, 04:35 AM   #7
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Hi Flatcat,

thank you very much for telling the full SN.

As far as the missing “Zusatzsicherung” (ZS) is concerned: I’m confused, really I am. Are you sure? Please check the enclosed image showing a 1919 with and without the ZS.

Well, of course there is no reason not to believe you, but it would be the first RFV marked Sauer 1919 not having the ZS. Seems, yours slipped through….

Best regards

Martin
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Comp_Sauer1919_ZS_noZS.jpg (100.0 KB, 283 views)
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Old October 11, 2008, 07:31 PM   #8
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Sauerfan,

I double checked and it does not have the ZS, (thanks for the abbreviation), as to why it had not been retrofitted I dont have a clue. Anyway here are a couple of photos.

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t=DSC00299.jpg

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t=DSC00300.jpg

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...t=DSC00301.jpg
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Old October 12, 2008, 05:04 AM   #9
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Hi Flatcat,

thank you very much for posting photos of your Sauer 1919. Most interesting! It is definitely the first police/RFV Sauer 1919 (and 1913, respectively) I ever saw not having the ZS. Yours must have slipped through…

Regards

Martin
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Old October 12, 2008, 10:14 PM   #10
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Hi, Sauerfan,

What was the purpose of the additional safety? It seems to be in the right place to be a magazine safety, maybe keeping the regular safety from being moved to the "fire" position unless the magazine was in place. (Of course, I recall the Parabellum pistols with the magazine safety. I have one with the safety disabled, and hope someday to find the complete unit.)

Jim
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Old October 13, 2008, 02:22 AM   #11
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Jim,

no, this is no magazine safety. This safety is acting on the trigger bar. While the normal safety is acting only on the trigger, the "Zusatzsicherung" (additional safety) is blocking the trigger bar. This safety was introduced because of some accidents with pistols dropping on the ground and firing, although the safety has been activated.

Good luck for finding a Luger with a Walther safety still in place! Rare birds.

Regards

Martin
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Old October 13, 2008, 01:23 PM   #12
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Thanks, Martin. Sounds a bit like the various devices makers of M1911 type pistols now have to put on to keep the gun from firing if dropped on the muzzle.

Jim
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Old July 16, 2009, 04:36 AM   #13
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Model 1919 (?) and the Zusatzsicherung

I've recently acquired what I take to be a Sauer & Sohn Model 1919 (SN 53055) which definitely does have the Zusatzsicherung.

I do not have a parts diagram, nor any stripping instructions, for this pistol; but it seems to me to be fairly straightforward.

What I do think is unusual is that everyone who discusses the M1919 talks of it as though it is exactly a scaled-down version of the M1913, made to shoot ammunition in 6.35mm calibre (.25ACP). A big difference, as far as I can see, is that there is no slide release within the trigger guard as there is in the M1913. Instead (on my version, at least) there is a tab on top of the safety catch lever that, when pressed upwards (that is, away from the ZS), acts to hold the slide open. See attachment below.

Incidentally, I do not see this tab in the two images posted above by Sauerfan. So how do your pistols work, Martin?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ZS.jpg (115.9 KB, 187 views)

Last edited by wordspace; July 16, 2009 at 11:15 AM.
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Old July 16, 2009, 11:00 AM   #14
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Hi wordspace,

these little buggers called „Sauer“ are confusing, aren’t they? The Sauers up to the model 38/H are like VW beetles: all do look the same but they aren’t.

OK, well, I can understand your confusion:

Quote:
What I do think is unusual is that everyone who discusses the M1919 talks of it as though it is exactly a scaled-down version of the M1913, made to shoot ammunition in 6.35mm calibre (.25ACP).
Well, well, this is correct. And it is not. First of all, please always remember, that the terms “model 1913” and “model 1919”, respectively, are collector’s terms NEVER used by J. P. Sauer (as the term “beetle” never was used by Volkswagen – they called it a “type 1”). At the time the pistols were made, Sauer did not care for different variations, nor did Sauer use model names. They referred to their pistols only with “automatic pistol Sauer & Sohn calibre 7.65 and 6.35”. Distinguishing between several variations is an “invention” by collectors for collectors. It had been proven to be appropriate and convenient. What you also must know is the fact, that there is no equivalent for the first variation of the 1913. There is no equivalent model 1919 having the features of the first variation of the model 1913 (for reasons of simplification: 1913-I, 1913-II shall mean hereinafter: first variation of the model 1913, second variation, and so on).

First of all, a table of the equivalences:


Variation of M. 1913 (.32 acp).…Variation of M. 1919 (.25 acp)

1913-I………………………………………..none
1913-II……………………………………….1919-I
1913-III (with ZS)……………………..1919-II
1926…………………………………………..1919-III

OK, now….. what you have, is a 1919, third variation (1919-III) corresponding to the Sauer 1926, which sometimes is called a fourth variation of the 1913 (1913-IV). Historically, this is not correct, as Sauer in fact did name this 1926 a ….1926. Technically, this is correct: the 1926 is an improved 1913, but now looking quiet different. The appearance is something between a 1913 and a model 1930 and a Behördenmodell, respectively. Like the latter the 1926 (and the 1919-III) now did have an improved holdopen device. It is like you described it. For better understanding, I’m enclosing an image of one of my 1926s. You see? Your’s is a scaled down version of the same pistol. Well, except for the grips – but on the early variations of the 1926 the grips looked like the ones on yours (mine is a very late one).

Regarding your question:

Quote:
Incidentally, I do not see this tab in the two images posted above by Sauerfan. So how do your pistols work, Martin?
Well, the 1913s and the 1919-I and 1919-II do have a lever or latch located within the trigger guard. You have to push this thing up to hold the slide open. The combined safety lever/hold open is the much better design.

Best regards

Martin
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 169576-1_1024x735.jpg (115.2 KB, 648 views)
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Old July 16, 2009, 11:13 AM   #15
wordspace
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M1919-iii

Thank you very much, Sauerfan!
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