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Old October 6, 2008, 02:06 PM   #1
noelf2
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A C&R question that's messin' with my head.

So, say I have my C&R license. I know that all C&R eligible guns that I buy need to be added to my A&D book right away (even if i didn't use my license to buy it). Here's the puzzling scenario:

I have a C&R license.
I buy a gun that is not classified as C&R.
The gun becomes C&R a couple years after I buy it.

Do I now need to add it to my A&D book? I bought it after I was given my license and it is now C&R eligible... I know it would be best to add it to the book, but would I have to?
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Old October 6, 2008, 02:19 PM   #2
sholling
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What ATF told me is only those that I buy with my C&R license.
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Old October 6, 2008, 02:40 PM   #3
ilbob
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Its when the transaction occurs that matters. If it turns C&R later thats not a transaction. If you sell it after it becomes C&R, then you have to record it.
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Old October 6, 2008, 02:44 PM   #4
Wuchak
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No. Only those items that you buy with the license need to be recorded in the book. If you already had a large collection of C&R firearms these would not be listed in the book. However, if you use your license to sell a firearm that you owned before getting your license the sale would have to put it in your book. The book should show all C&R firearms you buy and sell when you have your license which is not necessarily all that you own.
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Old October 6, 2008, 03:06 PM   #5
Technosavant
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(shaking head)

It isn't those bought WITH the license, it is those purchased or disposed WHILE THE LICENSE IS ACTIVE. That is the result of an email from the ATF. The bound book is a record of the activity in curio & relic firearms while the license is active. Whether obtained in interstate commerce (the purpose for the license) or locally (license not necessary), if the license is in effect, the transaction should be logged.

I found the email. First, here is what I asked, just in case anybody wonders how I phrased it:

Quote:
To whom it may concern:

I am a holder of an 03 FFL for Curio & Relic collecting. A number of fellow C&R holders have engaged in a discussion regarding the bound book we are required to keep. My interpretation of the regulations is that a 03 licensee is required to log into the bound book ALL acquisitions and dispositions of curio & relic firearms during the time the license is in effect. This includes those curio & relic firearms that are not acquired in interstate commerce (those acquired not using the license). Others contend that logging of such firearms is not required. I would greatly appreciate a clarification. In short, is a 03 FFL required to log acquisitions of firearms that were not acquired using the license?
Here is the ATF's response:
Quote:
Thank you for contacting the ATF’s Federal Firearms Licensing Center (FFLC) with your e-mail inquiry.



The following are regulatory obligations for the licensed collectors of curios and relics:



Licensed Collectors MUST:



1. Prepare and Acquisition and Disposition (A/D) record as prescribed by 27 CFR 478.125(f).
2. Enter into the A/D record all curios and relics acquired after receipt of the Collector’s license.
3. Provide written notification as specified in ATF I 5300.2, Youth Handgun Safety Act Notice, when delivery of a handgun is made to a non-licensee.
4. Prepare ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, whenever the Collector sells or otherwise disposes of, at one time or during any five consecutive business days, two or more pistols or revolvers or any combination thereof, to an unlicensed person.
5. Report the theft or loss of a firearm, within 48 hours of discovery, by telephoning ATF at 1-800-800-3855. Also ATF Form 3310.11, Federal Firearms Theft/Loss Report, must be prepared in accordance with the instructions on the form.
Note number 2. There is no distinction made between those guns obtained "with" or "without" the license. Sure, they don't speak directly to the question, they just reply with their regulations. But the regulations themselves don't specify how a gun was obtained, only that it was while the license was active.

Last edited by Technosavant; October 6, 2008 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Found the email
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Old October 6, 2008, 03:11 PM   #6
ISC
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the only way that you'd use your license to sell a C&R gun would be if you shipped it and had to show it to be eligible for a lower rate.

If you buy a C&R gun prior to getting your C&R it is considered a non collection gun and doesn't need to be logged. .
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Old October 6, 2008, 03:23 PM   #7
ISC
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E8) May a licensee who has firearms in his or her private collection sell any of these firearms without making firearms record entries? [Back]

A licensee may sell a firearm from his or her personal collection, subject only to the restrictions on firearm sales by unlicensed persons, provided the firearm was entered in the licensee’s bound book and then transferred to the licensee’s private collection at least 1 year prior to the sale. When the personal firearm is sold, the sale must be recorded in a "bound book" for dispositions of personal firearms, but no ATF Form 4473 is required.

[27 CFR 478.125a]

(D3) Does a dealer have to execute ATF Form 4473 to take a weapon out of the dealer’s inventory for his or her own use? [Back]

No. However, the "bound book" must reflect the disposition of the firearm from business inventory to personal use.

However, if the business is a corporation, and the firearm is being transferred to a corporate officer or director for other than business purposes, then a Form 4473 must be executed.

[27 CFR 478.124 and 478.125a]

(E8) May a licensee who has firearms in his or her private collection sell any of these firearms without making firearms record entries? [Back]

A licensee may sell a firearm from his or her personal collection, subject only to the restrictions on firearm sales by unlicensed persons, provided the firearm was entered in the licensee’s bound book and then transferred to the licensee’s private collection at least 1 year prior to the sale. When the personal firearm is sold, the sale must be recorded in a "bound book" for dispositions of personal firearms, but no ATF Form 4473 is required.

[27 CFR 478.125a]

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f2
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Old October 6, 2008, 03:52 PM   #8
Technosavant
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ISC, I wonder if that E8 item was intended for 01 FFLs, not 03 FFLs. While a 01 FFL may have "private collections" differentiated from the collection in the bound book, a 03 FFL does not- by definition, a 03 FFL has ONLY a private collection (since we cannot deal in firearms with this license), and thus that is what is in OUR bound books.

The ATF could be a lot more helpful if they would learn to appreciate plain language.
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Old October 6, 2008, 05:27 PM   #9
HKuser
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People, this is not hard, ANY C&R transactions made while you hold the license have to be recorded in your book.

Buy or otherwise acquire a C&R, record it.

Sell or otherwise dispose of a C&R, regardless of how and when acquired, record it.

Non C&R transaction, do not record it.

It's simple, don't make this hard.
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Old October 6, 2008, 06:47 PM   #10
noelf2
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HKuser - It sounds easy but the fact is that people modify their guns sometimes. If I have a gun that isn't C&R, and I modify it (drill and tap it for a scope, change sights, bend bolt, change stock, hammer, or anything), then it becomes C&R and I decide to sell it later, I'm not sure if I'd have to log it in my A&D book or not. Maybe I wouldn't since it would no longer qualify as C&R...??
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Old October 6, 2008, 09:19 PM   #11
HKuser
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If it's over 50 years old or on the list, treat it as a C&R. Period. Not hard.
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Old October 7, 2008, 07:16 AM   #12
Todd1700
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{"(D3) Does a dealer have to execute ATF Form 4473 to take a weapon out of the dealer’s inventory for his or her own use? [Back]

No. However, the "bound book" must reflect the disposition of the firearm from business inventory to personal use.

However, if the business is a corporation, and the firearm is being transferred to a corporate officer or director for other than business purposes, then a Form 4473 must be executed. "}


I don't think that's talking about a C&R federal license there. That's talking about someone with a gun dealers FFL transferring a weapon from store inventory to his personal collection. Since all firearms purchased with a C&R license are considered to be for personal use in a private collection there is no issue of changing the weapons status within the collection so long as it's still in your possession.
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