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Old September 20, 2008, 07:38 PM   #1
Saab1911
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My group moves down and to the left during rapid fire.

Today, I started out shooting slow deliberate fire. With the Glock, I put
forty five of fifty shots in the ten ring from 7 yards. With a 686 revolver, I
put all fifty shots in the ten ring.

Then, I tried rapid fire. Increase in group size was not unexpected. The
occasional flier was also expected, but I was chagrined to find that the
group moved left and down by two inches in each direction.

Is there a way to get my rapid fire group to be centered around my point
of aim? How do I diagnose what I'm doing wrong during rapid fire?
I don't want to change my point of aim.

Cheers,

Jae
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Old September 20, 2008, 07:58 PM   #2
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Jae ~

Go buy yourself some snap caps. Mix them randomly in your magazine along with your live ammunition, and do the same kind of shooting. You'll be able to make your own diagnosis after that ...

www.corneredcat.com/Basics/flinch.aspx

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Old September 20, 2008, 08:07 PM   #3
Walther22lr
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I agree. Try some snap caps in the mag. But I would have someone else load the mag for you. That way you will not know when, if and how many "duds" are in the mag.
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Old September 20, 2008, 08:13 PM   #4
pax
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Walther,

Sure. Or he could fill multiple magazines at a time, and then mix them around before selecting one to load into the gun. Either way, the goal is being surprised by the contents.

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Old September 20, 2008, 08:16 PM   #5
Saab1911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
Go buy yourself some snap caps. Mix them randomly in your magazine along with your live ammunition, and do the same kind of shooting. You'll be able to make your own diagnosis after that ...
Thanks for the link!

You're right. Now that I think about it, it must be a flinch.

I have the slow, steady trigger pull and surprise break pretty much mastered
during slow, deliberate fire, but I guess transfering that skill to rapid fire
is going to take some training.
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Old September 20, 2008, 08:26 PM   #6
Walther22lr
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Pax, after posting my response I went to the link you posted www.corneredcat.com/Basics/flinch.aspx and I really like your idea of multiple magazines for this test!
I should have read it first before posting my previous response. I have a several mags for my 1911 and will try this myself, great idea! Thanks!
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Old September 20, 2008, 09:29 PM   #7
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I had a similar problem (down and right, as I'm a lefty pistol shooter.) I had an instructor tell me I was waiting to trip the trigger on recovery from the previous shot until I had the sight picture. He wanted me to signal my finger to trip as I was coming onto the picture, so the oversweep would bring me onto target.

Just a thought.

Pops
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Old September 20, 2008, 09:31 PM   #8
Casimer
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Another factor may be that your grip is shifting - e.g. if the series starts where you want it but then gradually walks down to the left.
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Old September 20, 2008, 10:27 PM   #9
Dash
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you are jerking the trigger in rapid fire. use your surprise break, in time youll speed up. use bill drills
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Old September 20, 2008, 11:14 PM   #10
vox rationis
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did you say low and to the left



Very common, and I agree with everyone..mix some snap caps and you'll see how badly you are flinching, anticipating the recoil. When I get back in form my rapid fire groups do center as I work to lose the almost instinctual flinch, but that flinch comes back all to easily when out of form. The rhythm of following the front sight back on target, all the meanwhile prepping the trigger to let the next shot off exactly as soon as you have front sight on target, without flinching in anticipation of the recoil is definitely a perishable skill.
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Old September 21, 2008, 11:46 AM   #11
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You're jerking the trigger. There are several things you can do to fix it. If you like shooting your 686, put a quarter on the end of the barrel. Practice pulling the trigger without dislodging the quarter. With enough practice you'll be able to pull the trigger smoothly and quickly. With your Glock, dry fire or when you live fire, fire a magazine at the berm as fast as you can press the trigger while focusing on a smooth trigger press- I call that "resetting your mind".

What you have is a timing problem. What happens right after you press the trigger? The round fires right? Then what? The gun recoils. What do you do then? Bring the gun back on target. This is the problem with "Ball and dummy" drills. Most people aren't at a level where they can tell if the muzzle moves before or after the hammer falls. If it moves after, you don' have a problem because that is what you normally do when you shoot. It's when it moves BEFORE the hammer falls that you have an issue. I can guarantee that if you put a dummy round in my magazine that the muzzle will dip when I reach it. Doesn't worry me a bit because I know that it dipped after the hammer fell. Yet the unskilled observer's automatic reaction is usually "dude, you got a bad flinch".

What is probably happening is you are playing "gotcha" with the trigger. That is when you start pressing the trigger smoothly, but your conscious mind becomes impatient and "says okay smooth press, press, okay now!" and you jerk the last part of the travel which causes the muzzle to move. To fix it, practice the "surprise break". Press the trigger slowly and smoothly until the shot breaks. It should surprise you when it does. If you can tell when the shot is going to break, you are not presssing the trigger correctly. Even when shooting extremely fast, it should surprise you when the shot breaks. Work on that for awhile and you will see improvement.

There are a couple of other things you could be doing like moving your entire hand instead of just your trigger finger when you press the trigger. But, by dryfiring and working on a surprise break, you will correct those as well.
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Old September 21, 2008, 11:53 AM   #12
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Seeing you are in Austin, check out www.krtraining.com - they offer excellent courses on the basics of handgun use.
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Old September 21, 2008, 07:40 PM   #13
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I used to have a business card from an indoor range that gave tips based on where your bullets struck the target. Too tight a grip, too loose, jerking the trigger, ect... pretty neat wish I could find it. Anyone else seen one?
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Old September 23, 2008, 08:38 PM   #14
TripIII
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Releasing the hammer/striker vice pulling the trigger requires thousands of hammer releases whether putting bullets down range or dry firing. It's a muscle memory/mental thing.

Releasing the hammer in quick succession requires thousands more, and very frequent practice.

I have come to the conclusion that I will never be able to afford to be really good and really fast. I'll just settle for really good.
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Old September 24, 2008, 12:16 AM   #15
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Two things I would recommend.

First, slow down because you are jerking the trigger trying too shoot fast.

Second, slow down, the speed will come with time.

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