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Old September 20, 2008, 07:08 AM   #1
Para Bellum
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Biker enters gas-station with helmet and shades on...

What would you have done:

I once was in a gas station looking for a special chocolate. Then a biker came in with his leather-suit AND helmet AND shades on. Gas stations get robbed a lot arond here. They therfore all have a sign at the entrance asking bikers to take their helmets off.

He went straight to the clerk and had a little bag in his hand, big enough for a weapon. I silently positioned myself in a safe angle behind the biker, hand on my guy, 12ft away. The biker paid his gas and went away. Everything very cool.

If , however, he would have threatened to kill the clerk with any weapon, I would have had a very good chance to stop the threat without endangering any innocent bystanders. There was just a fridge and a wall in the direct line between myself and the bikers head.

So I would try to optimize my position in order to maximise my chances for a successfull interference if such action became necessary.

Take care,
PB
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Old September 20, 2008, 09:53 AM   #2
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You did well, Condition Orange from the start and you positioned yourself well. This is a scenario we will all face at sometime when we travel.
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Old September 20, 2008, 11:57 AM   #3
Lavid2002
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How about calling 911?
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Old September 20, 2008, 12:39 PM   #4
raimius
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It is rather odd, but there is no justifiable action to take except watching the situation closely.

Calling 911? What are you going to say? "There is a guy with a helmet and sunglasses in a gas station, come quickly!"
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Old September 20, 2008, 12:42 PM   #5
David Armstrong
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Quote:
If , however, he would have threatened to kill the clerk with any weapon, I would have had a very good chance to stop the threat without endangering any innocent bystanders.
Interesting how that is always the assumption in these things, that when the GG intervenes that everything happen just right and there won't be any problems and nobody will get hurt except the BG.
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Old September 20, 2008, 12:45 PM   #6
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Its not bikers I worry about. I worry more about teens with chips on their shoulders that travel in groups. The kind who keep their hands hidden under their hoodies or shoved in their pant pockets as if they are holding their pants up. I am always very worried when I cant see the hands.

Bikers are, in my experience, a very honorable and amicable lot who only fight amongst themselves when they do fight at all...
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Old September 20, 2008, 12:45 PM   #7
OJ
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I guess this thread astonishes me more than any I can remember. As gun owners/enthusiasts, we really dislike being the object of uninformed prejudice painting us as knuckle dragging outlaw Neanderthals so we certainly shouldn't do the same thing to "bikers". Did the tinfoil in your hat tell you any biker wearing a helmet while paying is some kind of criminal threat? I've never in all my years of riding (started in 1940) seen any such sign prohibiting wearing a helmet inside any gas station and I've been in a lot of stations.

For openers, outlaw bikers are a tiny percentage of bikers and, as a rule, are the least likely to wear any protective gear such as helmets and leathers. Using a bike as a getaway vehicle instead of a car is totally not practical. Wearing a helmet is in no way the equivalent of wearing a ski mask to foil identity.

If a biker is wearing a helmet a plus "body armor" leathers, he/she is likely to be one of the most informed and law abiding riders on the road. Helmet prices for quality models start at some $250.00 and up and good leather "body armor" jackets - at least that much. Making a brief stop for gas shouldn't require removing the helmet - which would tie up one hand to hold it while trying to gas up the machine - or paying for the gas - or using rest rooms - all a lot more inconvenient than just leaving it on your head.

Alternatives include resting the helmet on the seat of a bike on a side stand - risking it falling off - most common advice is, if your helmet falls off like that, it should be replaced. Laying it on the oil stained pavement is less appealing and hanging it on the handlebar invites stealing it.

Bottom line is if you see a "biker" wearing a helmet and "body armor" leathers, he/she is likely the most conservative and law abiding customer you will encounter in the filling station or on the highway. It could be me - though I usually avoid filling stations because auto drivers tend to be much less considerate of bikes (their "right of weight" and tendancy to cut me off at any pump they want) than full size vehicles and I do most of my bike gassing from containers in my garage.

I am a retired general and cardiovascular surgeon - practiced nearly 40 years (after volunteering for service in WWII and Korean War) - and am a Charter Life Member of the AMA (AMERICAN MOTORCYCLIST ASSOCIATION). My most recent speeding citation was in 1962 and was in a car.





Note the "safety" stickers.

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Last edited by OJ; September 21, 2008 at 11:23 AM.
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Old September 20, 2008, 04:35 PM   #8
KLRANGL
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Just because most bikers are good guys doesnt mean you wont have a bad apple...
Quote:
They therfore all have a sign at the entrance asking bikers to take their helmets off.
is enough reason for me to at least get suspicious...
I dont think what Para did was really that prejudice against bikers...
I just recently joined the biker ranks fyi
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Old September 20, 2008, 05:01 PM   #9
David Armstrong
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Quote:
I once was in a gas station looking for a special chocolate.
Sort of off-topic, but what kind of special chocolate do you find in a gas station?
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Old September 20, 2008, 05:06 PM   #10
Saab1911
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Is everyone making the assumption that motorcycle helmets are bullet proof?



I also own a motorcycle. Am I automatically a bad guy?

I often keep my helmet on also because the alternatives are 1) carrying
the helmet in my hands 2) hanging the helmet on the helmet hook.

Carrying the helmet in my hands is awkward. If I need both of my hands
I'll have to hold it between my legs or set it down.

Hanging the helmet on the helmet hook means I have to take the helmet off,
remove the rear seat, hang the helmet. While I'm inside birds or anything or
anybody else can introduce garbage into the open receptacle that is the
helmet. Then, I have to remove the helmet from helmet hook and put it
back on.

So, the right response when you see a biker with a helmet on his head
(where else should it be? ) and a paper bag is to call 911?
You better hope that the cop that shows up is not mounted. He may as
well arrest you for filing a false police report.

Ridiculous!
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Old September 20, 2008, 05:21 PM   #11
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before i gave up bikes i wore a full face helmet and rayban shades. the shades had to be put on after the helmet and it was a tight fit.
rather than waste time getting everything"just so" i usually walked into places with the helmet and shades on.
trust me, a helmet is not a good way to hide your identity and still have all your sense's awareness during a crime!
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Old September 20, 2008, 07:16 PM   #12
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Why is it that some people with a CCP think that they are undercover police here to protect the universe. Had I been worried in this situation I would have slipped out and called 911. What if he had been a friend of the clerk and wanted to show him his new pistol? Would you have drilled this guy in the head? Shoot a 1%er and I would not want to be in your shoes, house, car, job, skin etc.... Not all bikers are bad people. Not all wannabe posers are bikers either.
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Old September 20, 2008, 07:21 PM   #13
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Criminal on a MB

Hi speed chases when the bad guy is on a two wheeled escape system can be very traumatic to the body on a bike!

Some criminals suffer from lack of smarts! Bikes do not fit in to their life styles!
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Old September 20, 2008, 07:57 PM   #14
rhillen
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Why would interfere at all, are you LE ? Would shoot the person if he had drawn a weapon ? Best to watch from a distance and call 911 if it turns into something.
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Old September 20, 2008, 11:23 PM   #15
rampage841512
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
If , however, he would have threatened to kill the clerk with any weapon, I would have had a very good chance to stop the threat without endangering any innocent bystanders.
Quote:
Interesting how that is always the assumption in these things, that when the GG intervenes that everything happen just right and there won't be any problems and nobody will get hurt except the BG.
Where is the assumption that everything will happen just right? That there won't be any problems? That no one will get hurt except the BG? I don't see it. I just see where someone feels that had a situation gone bad, they would have had a 'very good chance.' A chance is just that.
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Old September 20, 2008, 11:38 PM   #16
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Count me among those that would mind my own business, pay him no more attention than everyone else.

I'd be more likely to go into the store (with my helmet on, when I wear one) and make a comment about the goofy sign. As if a guy using a motorcycle helmet to hide his identity and rob the place would pay attention to the sign!:barf:

I see way too many people who could be a BG to constantly hide in the corners and have perfect outcome fantasies.
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Old September 21, 2008, 12:24 AM   #17
ak74
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i was just thinking if he threatend to kill the guy i woulda pulled the gun slowly advanced behind him (if possible put gun to his head) and say freeze or ill shoot!
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Old September 21, 2008, 12:27 AM   #18
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I almost never take my helmet off at the gas station, like others have said it is a pain in the butt. Come to think of it I usually just use the CC option when riding which makes things even quicker. I am a big fan of helmets and leathers though, in fact they kept my injuries to a broken collarbone and knuckles when I crashed at a trackday a few weeks ago. Pretty good considering I was doing about 85ish when I hit the pavement.
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Old September 21, 2008, 12:52 AM   #19
Ruthless4christ
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Quote:
Did the tinfoil in your hat tell you any biker wearing a helmet while paying is some kick of criminal threat?
in situations like this, sometimes we just have to rely on intuition...

Quote:
Intuition has many related meanings, usually connected to the meaning "ability to sense or know immediately without reasoning",
Taken off of wikipedia.com
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Old September 21, 2008, 01:42 AM   #20
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I was having lunch in a southern AZ resturant one day, and two Hells Angels MC members came in. The small one was 6'6" 290 lbs.

Then things really got scary, they sat down and ordered lunch.

Come on my story is just as scary as a guy paying for his gasoline.
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Old September 21, 2008, 06:21 AM   #21
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yesterday a guy with his hat on sideways and pants down low came into my motorcycle shop. i quickly racial profiled his gangsta self and set up, but he wanted directions to the local mall. very disappointing so i tazed him for the low pants.

if the helmet said shoei or simpson or arai you know there is nothing to worry about,they are wearing a 450 dollar helmet. i hate leaving one beside the gas pump while i stand in line indefinately behind 10 people buying lottery tickets. like mentioned i dont think DOT helmets are bullet resistant. the BMW or Goldwing might have been another clue. what if he had pocketed a snickers bar and headed for the door...?

maybe im immune to the helmet thing since i sell them. now if a guy walked in with that bag over his head....

Last edited by alloy; September 21, 2008 at 07:11 AM.
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Old September 21, 2008, 09:11 AM   #22
Para Bellum
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Wait a minute folks! I used to be a biker myself...

Some of you got this completely wrong.
There is no prejudice about bikers, I rode motorcycles myself for years.

The situation around here is that signs on each gas station ask you to take off your helmet and sunglasses because gas stations here get robbed on a regular basis by armed criminals covering their faces with helmets and sunglasses. So if a guy enters a gas station with his helmet and shades on around here, everybody around here is alert.

Why get ready to intefere at all? Just because I wouldn't like to see an innocent bystander die while I could have prevented that. But that's just me.

Quote:
Interesting how that is always the assumption in these things, that when the GG intervenes that everything happen just right and there won't be any problems and nobody will get hurt except the BG.
Wow. Another professor of critizism. But to counter that in your terms: I shoot "El Presidente" at 76yds (seventy six yards) with a 9-A 3-C score from my every day carry weapon. I actually do assume that I can hit a brain stem at 4yds if the BG doesn't even move or see me. But again, that's just me.

If discussions around here continue being so pointlessly aggressive and dull, I'd rather talk to my guns about this.
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Old September 21, 2008, 09:29 AM   #23
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Sorry if you rode motorcycles for years and were a member of an avid hobby. Why are you shopping at that gas station. When im in a state that requires helmets i dont take it off wether i have to go in or not. Thats few brief minutes and I usually want to get back on the road. But I guess my main question is what would you have done if the rider and the attendant would have smacked someone upside the head or anything in that nature. Cause I personally know 4 attendants in the area. Your brief stereo type could have lead to someone getting shot. A good ccw carrier notices more than just bikers and helmets. Like clothing, imprinting, and surroundings. If a guy is imprinting a gun watch him close. Most guys carry wallets in the back pocket so if he keeps reaching in his jacket watch him close. but if both hands are vissible and a hand isnt clutching something in that bag. Dont assume its a threat just cause hes a biker. You payed attention to the type of shades, probably could tell us wether it was a 1/2, 3/4 or full helmet. and you could go as far as telling us about his jacket. What if it was a kid with a loud stereo system and baggy clothing talking that damn jungle language. These are reasons I pull into places that are pay at the pump when im out of town. And something about this storry sounds made up. But I am 100 percent in agreement with oj and saab1911.
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Old September 21, 2008, 09:53 AM   #24
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IIRC, Para Bellum is in a European country where some of the rules are different. That may explain a little bit of the disconnect here.

Since I'm not aware of the "type" of biker that is performing the robberies he mentions, it's hard to make general rules about the outfit the robbers are using.

The good part of this story was that Para was alert to the possiblity of trouble and planned his tactics while watching for the red flag to pop up.

The bad part of this story is that Para's reaction was based on tunnel vision and very limited observed data. He essentially reacted to a single "data point" - a helmeted biker. Was the bike parked just outside the "office"? Or at the pump? Was he alone or in the company of another outside? Did the biker pause outside to make sure he'd be alone at the register? Or did he survey the activity before entering? All of these items would help indicate the absence or presence of a threat.
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Old September 21, 2008, 11:45 AM   #25
Para Bellum
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Folks, I'm out of here. What you write has nothing to do with my post.

Quote:
Your brief stereo type could have lead to someone getting shot. A good ccw carrier notices more than just bikers and helmets.
Quote:
The bad part of this story is that Para's reaction was based on tunnel vision and very limited observed data.
Folks, I'm out of here. What you write has nothing to do with my post.
I am not going to visit this thread again so keep on writing on whatever you like, tunnel, vision, stereotypes and magic mushrooms.

Just to translate, what I wrote:
The guy had a full helmet likte this one:

...and he was wearing shades. In an area were robbers frequently rob gas stations disguised exactly that way. And he ignored the "Helmets Off!" sign at the sliding door of the gas station. But who cares about information if all one wants is to blame somebody of "tunnel vision", "limited observation" and eating children.
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