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Old September 16, 2008, 05:52 PM   #1
TFred
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CCW: Analyze this

I haven't read this particular forum much at all, if it's the incorrect place to post this, please accept my apologies and move it to where it belongs.

I do not yet have a CCW permit, but have taken a couple classes toward that process. I've read several recent accounts of encounters that could have ended very differently had the victim been carrying.

Perhaps I need to find and take additional training for actual handgun defense tactics, but in the mean time, I read a blog today written by a guy who was mugged and shot three times.

Aside from the fact that this happened in Washington, DC, where CCW is not yet legal, after reading the description of the encounter, what and when would have been the proper and legal action to take? I realize that there are 50 sets of state laws that may influence that answer... let's assume we're using Utah, since they probably have the most familiarity out there.

In this particular case, the shooting happened as the situation seemed to diffuse, but then took a sudden turn for the worse.

http://www.brianbeutler.com/2008/09/a_brief_but_exc/

Not my intent to start any debates... I really want to know what more experience has to say here!

Thanks,

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Old September 16, 2008, 06:02 PM   #2
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Oh... I just read "A note concerning scenarios"... I guess this post fits in that category... hope it is OK, if not, I will not be offended if it gets closed...

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Old September 16, 2008, 06:25 PM   #3
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Hey, a fellow Virginian

Like you, im still waiting on my CCW, so I guess im not the best person to ask, but I like putting in my 2 cents...
I open carry when im out at night and plan on hitting some rougher parts of town. That usually tells people to find someone who will put up less of a fight... Ive had a few homeless people who started turning violent but changed their minds pretty quick when they saw what my right hand started reaching for...
From what I know of Virginian law, brandishing is holding a weapon in a threatening manner, which has sometimes been interpreted as putting your hand on your weapon (even without drawing) so you have to be careful. But I expect in a mugging where no weapon is drawn on you, a simple reaching for your weapon and getting it ready to be pulled would be ample to "diffuse" the situation. If it turns violent you'll at least be ready... Thats probably what I would have done in the above scenario, though not having been there I couldnt say for sure...
Most people say just to do what the mugger tells you to do, and sure most people get out of muggings just fine, but I hate putting my life on those "what ifs" (ie what if he actually shoots me).
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Old September 16, 2008, 06:55 PM   #4
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He wasn't mugged. The assailants gave-up on the mugging and shot him as they were leaving. Despite what the victim has assumed about the situation, and their motivation, I suspect he'd have been shot regardless.

That said, I don't know what he could have done - two kids, no weapon apparent, no violence [ prior to the shooting ]. He probably should have high-tailed it when he saw the one passing the pistol to the other.

When I'd lived in DC many moons ago, Adams Morgan was the type of neighborhood where muggers would go for an easy mark - lot's of affluent passive white students and young professionals. That sounds like what this incident was.

Last edited by Casimer; September 17, 2008 at 01:16 AM.
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Old September 16, 2008, 06:57 PM   #5
12GaugeShuggoth
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Quote:
Most people say just to do what the mugger tells you to do, and sure most people get out of muggings just fine, but I hate putting my life on those "what ifs" (ie what if he actually shoots me).
+1. Having had people I care for be the victims of muggings, and myself the victim of violence; I definitely agree with that feeling. I've been lucky enough not to have been stabbed or shot up to this point in life (though not for others' lack of trying), and as the saying goes:
"I'm sure I'll die one day, but it won't be for lack of shooting back"
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Old September 16, 2008, 07:18 PM   #6
Stagger Lee
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KLRANGL says:
Quote:
I open carry when im out at night and plan on hitting some rougher parts of town. That usually tells people to find someone who will put up less of a fight... Ive had a few homeless people who started turning violent but changed their minds pretty quick when they saw what my right hand started reaching for...
So let's analyze this.

You go into areas of town where you expect trouble...by your own choice.
You also carry a gun openly for the express purpose of intimidating others, and you have on more than a couple of occasions reached for it as a means of escalating the intimidation.

You're one of those people who make the case for more restrictive gun control, fella.

And it's funny how I've lived most of my life in major cities and I've never had a single homeless guy ever spontaneously turn violent and approach me. Are you sure that you're not puffing a bit here?
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Old September 16, 2008, 07:34 PM   #7
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Lee, I appreciate your concern, but you dont know me so please dont be too harsh in judgment...

Yes I go into rougher parts of town on occasion... For one, I live in one (someone was shot and killed 30ft from my house a few weeks back actually). Its not a bad neighborhood, but its not great... Its one of those was bad but is getting much better neighborhoods. Also my friends live in some rougher parts (we're college kids after all)... Please dont suggest not visiting them just for the sake of "being safe."

No I dont carry a gun open for the express purpose of intimidating others... I carry it for the express purpose of defending myself and my friends until I get my CCW... Its "intimidating" effect as you call it was a side effect I noticed and commented on...

Yes im sure im not puffing a bit... I have been asked for money by homeless people on many occasions, and on a rare few they got rather upset and forceful. In the last incident (last weekend) the man who wanted money followed me while yelling as I hurriedly walked (side shuffled?) towards the nearest populated area (store front)... Where does asking for money end and being mugged begin? Also i have lived outside DC most of my life and have spent a great deal of time there... I also spend lots of time in Richmond and live in Norfolk...

This thread isnt about me defending myself, so if you have any more concerns maybe send them to me via PM? I promise you I have never done, nor will do, anything to give a case for more gun control (other than the fact that I do carry a gun and am willing to use it)...
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Old September 17, 2008, 02:48 PM   #8
David Armstrong
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Quote:
I have been asked for money by homeless people on many occasions, and on a rare few they got rather upset and forceful. In the last incident (last weekend) the man who wanted money followed me while yelling as I hurriedly walked (side shuffled?) towards the nearest populated area (store front).
Nothing there to justify intimidation or threat by firearm, IMO.
Quote:
Where does asking for money end and being mugged begin?
If you are serious about that question and do not know, I would suggest you find out before you continue on the path you have chosen.
Quote:
I hate putting my life on those "what ifs" (ie what if he actually shoots me).
Choosing to escalate the violence also creates one of those "what ifs" that needs to be considered.
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Old September 17, 2008, 03:07 PM   #9
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I read the post. Frankly, it reads like a dime novel, and I'm not too sure how much of it to believe.

In SC, you may only fire if you are in fear of your life or of great bodily injury. You may not shoot to protect valuables or property. You may not draw or show your weapon to warn or intimidate. Brandishing may consist of willfully exposing your weapon and in itself may be considered "use of deadly force".

There's a fine line where a simple street robbery or mugging turns into "I might get killed". One SC Sheriff made a statement when he was elected. "This office will consider that, if someone breaks into your house, you may assume he is there to harm you, not to simply rob you." You can imagine the leeway that statement gives the homeowner to make a judgment call to protect his life AND property.

In a street mugging, may one reasonably assume they will be gravely injured or killed? That depends on the history of muggings in that area, and the demeanor of the BG(s). Every situation is different.

Our CWP instructor told us: "If someone comes at you with their fists, you must assume they can beat up Joe Fraizer. If someone comes at you with a knife, you must assume they are a skilled commando, including throwing it. If someone comes at you with a gun, you must assume they're Wyatt Earp." You can't take a chance on anything else. The penalty for being wrong is too great.

My signature/tag line sums it up well.

Shoot only if you must, but if you must, shoot well.
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Old September 17, 2008, 03:36 PM   #10
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Nothing there to justify intimidation or threat by firearm, IMO.
To which I did neither... Like I said I just walked away (quickly)... I have never placed my hand on my weapon with intent to draw... If a previous post of mine led you to believe otherwise, I apologize...

Quote:
If you are serious about that question and do not know, I would suggest you find out before you continue on the path you have chosen.
It was a thought provoking question... If you are worried that I do not know if my life is being threatened, then dont be... I have never, and never will provoke a situation with use of a firearm because someone gets angry that I wont give them money... But I do have a friend who had a knife pulled on him by a "beggar" after he refused to give him money... Hence my question...

Quote:
Choosing to escalate the violence also creates one of those "what ifs" that needs to be considered.
You're absolutly right, which is why you have to take very situation as it comes at you... I am in no way advocating shoot first and ask questions later, or escalating a situation by drawing a handgun when it isnt warranted...

Trust me guys, if theres ever a person who wants to avoid a fight, its me
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Old September 17, 2008, 11:34 PM   #11
chris in va
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In SC,
But he's not in SC...things are somewhat different in VA.

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I do not yet have a CCW permit, but have taken a couple classes toward that process.
Huh? You should only need one 'safety' class to qualify the permit. Heck, a DD214 or hunter's safety course will count.

Look, bottom line...if you feel threatened with your life or "great bodily harm" and can back that up in court, by all means defend yourself. That's it. Oh, and don't shoot an innocent bystander.

You can open carry in the meantime, you know.
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Old September 18, 2008, 09:48 AM   #12
David Armstrong
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I have never placed my hand on my weapon with intent to draw
Your intent is usually not of concern. Placing your hand on the gun is often enough to qualify for the threat/intimidation. BTW, if you have no intent to draw, why are you placing your hand on the gun unless it is to threaten or intimidate?
Quote:
It was a thought provoking question.
I'll disagree. It is a very straightforward question, and one that anyone who is carrying a gun for SD better be clear about BEFORE they go out to face the BGs.
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Old September 18, 2008, 10:35 AM   #13
KLRANGL
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Your intent is usually not of concern. Placing your hand on the gun is often enough to qualify for the threat/intimidation. BTW, if you have no intent to draw, why are you placing your hand on the gun unless it is to threaten or intimidate?
I never said I put my hand on my weapon... I did say I would if it was obvious I was getting mugged, which I guess you probably wouldn't like me to do because it "escalates" the situation. But if they do have a gun hidden and feel like using it, i'll be alive and they'll be dead... Granted it is situation dependent, but it is how I feel... Feel free to try and change my mind...

Quote:
I'll disagree. It is a very straightforward question, and one that anyone who is carrying a gun for SD better be clear about BEFORE they go out to face the BGs.
Good point there, to which I agree... I guess my point wasnt clear, so i'll drop it...
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Old September 18, 2008, 07:04 PM   #14
David Armstrong
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I never said I put my hand on my weapon... I did say I would if it was obvious I was getting mugged,
Sorry, but "Ive had a few homeless people who started turning violent but changed their minds pretty quick when they saw what my right hand started reaching for..." sure sounds like you are advocating reaching for your gun to intimidate or threaten, as does "But I expect in a mugging where no weapon is drawn on you, a simple reaching for your weapon and getting it ready to be pulled would be ample to "diffuse" the situation. If it turns violent you'll at least be ready... Thats probably what I would have done in the above scenario, though not having been there I couldnt say for sure..."
Quote:
But if they do have a gun hidden and feel like using it, i'll be alive and they'll be dead
I always have to ask when statements like that are made: Why do you think that you will always come out on top? As Glenn is fond of pointing out, FoF tends to knock that notion out of folks pretty quick.
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Old September 18, 2008, 07:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
sure sounds like you are advocating reaching for your gun to intimidate or threaten
This may already have been said in this thread, but...
In some states, simply showing your weapon is considered "brandishing" and can get you in serious trouble. After all, it's supposed to be concealed.

Also, in some states, simply putting your hand on your weapon may be considered "use of deadly force".

Only place your hand on your weapon to draw it and only draw it to shoot it and only shoot it to save your life.
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Old September 18, 2008, 08:18 PM   #16
KLRANGL
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After all, it's supposed to be concealed.
VA is an open carry state...

Quote:
I always have to ask when statements like that are made: Why do you think that you will always come out on top? As Glenn is fond of pointing out, FoF tends to knock that notion out of folks pretty quick.
I completely agree with what you said here, and it has caused me some self doubt lately...

Also, my early comment about "what my right hand was reaching for" was phrased very poorly and for that I apologize. I meant it merely as when their eyes were drawn to it...
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Old September 18, 2008, 09:02 PM   #17
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I am a bit of a skeptic and think this reads like

"a dime store novel" too. But there are many points I want to briefly touch on.

I am not in Virginia, but I have been approached by aggressive panhandlers, I use my voice to maintain distance etc. and whenever I have a chance I refuse them, out of concience. If they ask nicely, I give richly. It is up to you. But asking for spare change is very different from armed robbery. I could not encourage these punks by giving in. That's just my personality.

As a citizen, I would keep my weapons concealed. I think in most places wearing openly is a bad idea, because it makes you a target and takes away your element of suprise, and also opens you up to a gun grab from the start.

I would have given the phone by tossing it toward them, drawing and opening fire. If somebody is brandishing a weapon during a robbery, they are using or threatening to use deadly force in the commission of a felony. Deadly force is your option.

"It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six"

Also, anyone who carries a gun without having trained seriously in defensive tactics/martial arts is opeing themselves up to a lot of trouble. Take the time to learn how do defend yourself with your body, improvised weapons, edged weapons, inpact weapons etc. Also, learn CQB.

Out of time. Anyway, hope this helps and remember hat there is a lot more to gun ownership than buying a gun and holster.

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Old September 18, 2008, 10:54 PM   #18
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I have been relieved of my cell phone, wallet with money @ gun point in January this year. I didnt own any weapon @ that time. It happened in night when my car heated up & I stopped just 50 ft. away from Rangers Sub Head Quarter. I was so occupied in watering the radiator that I didnt see the two guys coming on bike & draw on me so I had to comply. I guess even if I had my CCW @ that time, I might have lost it to them too or worst they could have been panicked by just the feel of the CCW (when they tapped me to search) that they might have shot me. Yes, most street criminals here in Karachi are very trigger happy & u would be dead even over a petty cellphone worth no more than $100.

Well, if I had a weapon @that time in my car, I guess I would have shot them when they were fleeing. What any of u would have done?

Last edited by pax; September 19, 2008 at 07:09 PM. Reason: ... sorry, wrong one.
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Old September 18, 2008, 11:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Well, if I had a weapon @that time in my car, I guess I would have shot them when they were fleeing. What any of u would have done?
I'm first to admit that I'm still on the upswing of the learning curve here... but I do know enough to know that a fleeing criminal is no longer a threat of grave bodily harm or death...

TFred

And PS, I do appreciate all the discussion of my question here!

Last edited by TFred; September 18, 2008 at 11:49 PM. Reason: PS
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Old September 19, 2008, 12:37 AM   #20
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well, in ur case, they were fleeing too but changed their mind. U can shoot to protect ur property & life here acc. to law, although 90% of the police seems to be really unfriendly.
By shooting, I meant if I had a backup gun in the car & they were fleeing with my carry gun, I would have done that to stop them & using the weapon registered against my name in their criminal activities.

Regarding ur question here, sorry to poke my nose in it, but since I m not familiar with UTAHs laws, I cant say much, thats y I mentioned above that law here allows u to shoot to protect property & life.

Last edited by pax; September 19, 2008 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Please read Rule #4 at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules_catecory#faq_forum_rules ~ pax
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Old September 19, 2008, 12:12 PM   #21
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"It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six"
I prefer the "it is better not to be tried or carried" option.
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Old September 20, 2008, 07:51 PM   #22
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Two on bikes?

Driving after them to try for better ID to inform the Police.

Might have got really nervous, not driving as well as I do normally! POW! Bikers awaiting police vehicles.
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Old September 21, 2008, 08:01 AM   #23
Tim Burke
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To go back to the OP...
a ten second exchange which was clearly a robbery scenario, gun being passed from one to the other, and he just stands there?
Fight/flight/freeze. The blogger apparently wasn't going to fight. Freeze is most effective when you haven't been spotted yet. He chose wrong. My guess is he thinks every problem can be solved by talking, and this was his introduction to the real world.
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Old September 21, 2008, 08:18 AM   #24
alloy
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"Only place your hand on your weapon to draw it and only draw it to shoot it and only shoot it to save your life."
KELTYKE

ok newbie here, and i dont plan on drawing my weapon any time soon and never have, nor brandished one. i try to prepare for the day it will need to be drawn and i hope i never have to. 10 years so far. but do you see no event where drawing a weapon might stop the assault but not require the actual firing of the weapon? or would you wait until a shot is the only resort before bringing the weapon into the event?
meaning primarily...is there no legal issue with allowing a situation to escalate beyond the point of no return? for instance a guy 15 feet away winds up a baseball bat and starts walking towards you, brandishing it with an obvious intent.

excuse my stupidity, i understand that hypothetical situations are discouraged here. only trying to learn a proper mental approach. sorry for the thread jacking...i dont want to start a hypo thread.

KELTYKE....anyone....?
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Old September 21, 2008, 09:34 AM   #25
Tim Burke
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Quote:
but do you see no event where drawing a weapon might stop the assault but not require the actual firing of the weapon? or would you wait until a shot is the only resort before bringing the weapon into the event?
meaning primarily...is there no legal issue with allowing a situation to escalate beyond the point of no return? for instance a guy 15 feet away winds up a baseball bat and starts walking towards you, brandishing it with an obvious intent.
I wouldn't disclose the presence of the weapon until I drew it, and I wouldn't draw it unless I was justified in using it. In the baseball bat example given, the use is justified. However, circumstances can change quickly. If, in the second that you are drawing the gun, the guy drops the bat and runs off, shooting him is no longer justified.
It's difficult to give hard and fast rules to cover every situation.
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