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Old October 20, 2008, 05:45 AM   #51
tomgun
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mods

heres some mods to make it the most effective hd.
tactial light on the feed tube w lithium batteries.
pistol grip w folding stock.
also remove the plug if its still there, u should get 8-9 shells in the tube.{reinstall if u go hunting }.
and a small key ring on the feed tube for hanging on the closet hook.
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Old October 20, 2008, 06:16 PM   #52
Katrina Guy
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this guy kills me

The fact that I'm not going to lock myself in a bedroom and whispering into a telephone on hold probably calling for Law Enforcement rather then my take on such a situation as to keep quiet and keep my senses going as to how many intruders etc etc ETC and THEN take the prudent steps whether it is to fire or holler out a HALT when my shotgun is pointed in their direction, just flips me out.
You go girl! hide in your bedroom and whisper into an "on hold" telephone while the BG's hear you and make it to your area, not for me, not saying I wouldn't call 911 but the way you put it as to what you would do then make me sound like some kind of Rambo type because I take a more wise course of action under such circumstances. Don't forget to turn on your bedroom light first, a lit up crack under the door sure juice up your circumstances a lot. I'm saying that that course of action to me sounds just plain stupid as a course of pre drilled type action to take. I will rely on my senses and what's going on before I'd do anything other then grab my piece and wait, wait not for an excuse to pop someone but wait, wait for additional info to avail itself to me etc. You have some nerve the more I think of it with your post.
In a small residence you'd be shot if the assailant or would be robber had more ill intentions then just swipping your 25" television set, with your proceedure. No, I say grab a piece, listen, wait, listen, wait, listen...before any action is taken, unless of course the intruder is in your face immediately. I wouldn't turn my back to the door and fiddle with a telephone, you are correct in quoting me on that
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Old October 20, 2008, 07:22 PM   #53
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Tis better to have a gun stuck to your hip than one stuck to your head.Go ahead and carry while home,you'll feel sexy.

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Old October 20, 2008, 08:18 PM   #54
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Is that an empty hole I see where your safety goes?
Yup! Before I installed the Spec-ops stock, I was replacing the safety with an oversized Wilson. That darn little ball bearing went shooting across the room and I lost it. Nice thing about not having a safety is that if I only put my finger on the trigger when I want to shoot, it's all good.

Since the photo was taken, I've re-installed the OEM safety.
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Old October 20, 2008, 08:56 PM   #55
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Zippy13 accuses me of critisizing his "probable course of action", when in fact all I did was explain that it was not a viable option for me and specifically why it's not.
zippy I don't critisize your plan, it';s YOUR plan after all. You can stand in defense of yourself and your wife with a baseball bat, a telephone, your bare fists, pepper spray, a kitchen knife or your incredible kung fo skills for that matter. These are your choices.

But you DO critisize people who choose a different plan than yours.
My wifes 590 has been used for many things, dogs killing the kids rabbits, rattlesnakes in the yard (several times per year), ect, ect.
In the event of someone breaking into my home, it will come into play again and it's a pretty effective tool in my rural part of AZ.

To use the term "murder" in connection with law abiding American citizens protecting their families, that's beyond the pale. If you feel that way about it then do what you gotta do but if you want to hang the "murderer" tag on legal, law abiding actions by home owners you won't find much sympathy towards your view in the United States of America.

I have no desire to kill another human being, I won't however have my family abused by criminals.

JTMcC.
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Old October 20, 2008, 09:53 PM   #56
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Katrina Guy: The fact that I'm not going to lock myself in a bedroom and whispering into a telephone on hold probably calling for Law Enforcement rather then my take on such a situation as to keep quiet and keep my senses going as to how many intruders etc etc ETC and THEN take the prudent steps whether it is to fire or holler out a HALT when my shotgun is pointed in their direction, just flips me out.
You go girl! hide in your bedroom and whisper into an "on hold" telephone while the BG's hear you and make it to your area, not for me, not saying I wouldn't call 911 but the way you put it as to what you would do then make me sound like some kind of Rambo type because I take a more wise course of action under such circumstances. Don't forget to turn on your bedroom light first, a lit up crack under the door sure juice up your circumstances a lot. I'm saying that that course of action to me sounds just plain stupid as a course of pre drilled type action to take. I will rely on my senses and what's going on before I'd do anything other then grab my piece and wait, wait not for an excuse to pop someone but wait, wait for additional info to avail itself to me etc. You have some nerve the more I think of it with your post.
In a small residence you'd be shot if the assailant or would be robber had more ill intentions then just swipping your 25" television set, with your proceedure. No, I say grab a piece, listen, wait, listen, wait, listen...before any action is taken, unless of course the intruder is in your face immediately. I wouldn't turn my back to the door and fiddle with a telephone, you are correct in quoting me on that
Seriously Dude, what is your need to **** on others here that have a different plan than yours for defending themselves in their home? In your case with kids in the house you obviously can't shelter in place and call the cops. This guy is an empty nester with ONLY him and his wife in the house. Arming himself, locking the bedroom door, and calling the police is a prudent and safer plan than being a wannabe swat team member and looking for an armed confrontation when there is nothing to gain and no one else to protect.

Do what you wish. Realizing while it may be right for you in your circumstances, it probably isn't right for everyone or anyone else.

Either way stay safe and I sincerely hope NONE of us here ever have to actually be involved in a home invasion/robbery in our own homes.
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Old October 21, 2008, 01:05 AM   #57
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Quote:
Is that an empty hole I see where your safety goes?

Yup! Before I installed the Spec-ops stock, I was replacing the safety with an oversized Wilson. That darn little ball bearing went shooting across the room and I lost it. Nice thing about not having a safety is that if I only put my finger on the trigger when I want to shoot, it's all good.

Since the photo was taken, I've re-installed the OEM safety.

Man! I hate it when that happens!
I'm sure glad you found it and it turned out well.
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Old October 21, 2008, 05:09 AM   #58
Katrina Guy
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So much depends on size of residence

Like in a movie, wife hears something stirring downstairs, she calls police while hubby wakes up and grabs a baseball bat or something. In a smaller world (smaller residence) the above choices may not be available to you. My point is one may not have such time and thusly would act accordingly to protect one's life not spending time fiddling in the dark to call for help. Can see it now, "hold on down there Mister BG, I can't find my reading glasses in the dark to call for help".
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Old October 21, 2008, 02:10 PM   #59
Kraziken
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Having done entry work in real life, ala knock warrants.

I felt way more comfortable with a pistol in close quarters. If you have to you can pull back, tuck the pistol against your body and use your other hand to ward off a suprise attack.

The shotgun has it's place though. I don't care for the pistol grip and prefer it on the shoulder ready, but in room clearing pistol grip and tucked down low the shotgun would work well.

There's other numerous things against it such as muzzle flash, recoil and the ability to follow up with shots too. If you actually make a confrontation where rounds are not exchanged first, I can see the shotgun possibly with just the presence enough to cause the offender to think twice about doing anything funny, and maybe more willing to comply with verbal orders.

I have kids, so hiding a SD shotgun becomes an issue too, as it will more likely be stored in a safe. I see it more of a tool to see what is "knocking" outside, than what is "knocking" inside the house because of this reason.
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Old October 21, 2008, 04:01 PM   #60
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Katrina Guy: Like in a movie, wife hears something stirring downstairs, she calls police while hubby wakes up and grabs a baseball bat or something. In a smaller world (smaller residence) the above choices may not be available to you. My point is one may not have such time and thusly would act accordingly to protect one's life not spending time fiddling in the dark to call for help. Can see it now, "hold on down there Mister BG, I can't find my reading glasses in the dark to call for help".
Okay, see now I understand you. You simply can't bear when someone doesn't agree that your way is the only way.

Your above scenario is quite possibly the silliest, most moronic thing I have read on these forums. What is it about: 1) Arm yourself, 2) Lock the door, 3) Take a position of cover, 4) Call the police, that you simply fail to understand? This person chooses a defensive posture that allows him to protect himself and his wife. He chooses not to become a wannabe swat member and clear his house all the while yelling hut hut hut. He realizes that in HIS circumstances this is a wiser choice for HIM. Your options may vary. Now grow up and stop acting like a spoiled child and understand your way is NOT the only way.
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Old October 21, 2008, 05:17 PM   #61
Katrina Guy
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you're missing the point that you keep making,

and that is that EVERYONE is wrong unless they lock themselves in a bedroom and call for help, I'm saying that that isn't always prudent for obvious reasons as stated in earlier post. I don't care how you defend yourself or if you don't defend yourself, just some around here make people like me who realize an intruder in your house can be a fluid situation and no pre-addressed drills such as yours sound feasible. You lock yourself up and call away buddy.
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Old October 21, 2008, 05:38 PM   #62
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Katrina Guy: and that is that EVERYONE is wrong unless they lock themselves in a bedroom and call for help, I'm saying that that isn't always prudent for obvious reasons as stated in earlier post. I don't care how you defend yourself or if you don't defend yourself, just some around here make people like me who realize an intruder in your house can be a fluid situation and no pre-addressed drills such as yours sound feasible. You lock yourself up and call away buddy.
Can you even read? Did you not see what I posted? Apparently not. I said this was the best choice for him. YOUR options may vary. You seem to just want to be a beligerent ass and argue, not even bothering to read or comprehend what anyone else writes. Have fun with that. If you ever want to try to converse like an adult let me know.

Have a nice day...Rambo!
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Old October 21, 2008, 06:47 PM   #63
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the hd shotgun is great. got one. like the idea of them, will use when the zombies come to get me.
but...the daily pistol i practice with and shoot with most consistently is my home defense. i think i could shoot every door knob in the house up with extreme accuracy from any corner or angle. that is to my advantage. where do you guys practice when you arent at the range? look down the barrel, check your sights, try out holsters etc. tips i try from here, magazine swapping, push off of close intruders, point shooting, firing from a hip at a close attacker, etc....the things discussed here at length.
the plate off the counter, the latch on the back window and the electrical outlet over by the lamp around the corner have all been dry-fired more than once and i dont see any reason to grab the shotgun.

point being, if you dont think you need it, sell it. the hd is my bug out gun(another phrase i picked up here cause i dont really think i will ever need to bug out) but i can hunt birds, deer, squirrels, with it, etc if i had to i guess.
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Old October 21, 2008, 07:51 PM   #64
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furthest thing from a Rambo,

BUT I may have your post confused with another's. Anyway I don't want to argue and go on and on over "tactics", albeit mental not literally tactical at this point.
And I'd call LE if the opt availed itself, not opposed to doing that at all, I was just saying it wouldn't be on the fore front of my mind in such a circumstance, not like you get some gold star at the end of the day if you placed the call first.
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Old October 21, 2008, 08:40 PM   #65
tshadow6
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Shotgun

One reason for owning a pump shotgun-Teeing off the anti-gunners!

Second reason-Nothing is as comforting when something goes bump in the night as a 12 gauge pump in your hands.

Third reason- Every American should own a shotgun.
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Old October 21, 2008, 09:05 PM   #66
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I too have a shotgun for home defense but set up a little differently. I have the standard Mossberg 500 pump with 5 round capacity, wood stock, and a short 18" home defense/security barrel. But, being the standard 5-round version, I also have a 28", vent-rib, ported barrel with accu-choke that I can use for hunting, trap, sporting clays, etc. Makes the gun ALOT more versatile.
That's similar to my setup, except it's a Remington 870 Express with a non-ported 28" barrel and instead of an 18" barrel I have a 20" remchoke barrel with rifle sites.

The only major modification I plan to do to it is replace the synthetic stock with a walnut one, so that it can be more easily adjusted to fit me better.

For me though, the choice of a shotgun for HD is fairly obvious. I have more experience with shotguns than any other platform, being a fairly avid bird hunter. I have roughly the same experience with rifles, but I don't own any that wouldn't be wholly inappropriate for HD (touching off a .30-06 in an apartment complex wouldn't end well, and a .22lr simply doesn't have enough oomph).

Last edited by Regolith; October 22, 2008 at 10:12 PM.
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Old October 22, 2008, 09:33 AM   #67
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Katrina Guy: BUT I may have your post confused with another's. Anyway I don't want to argue and go on and on over "tactics", albeit mental not literally tactical at this point.
And I'd call LE if the opt availed itself, not opposed to doing that at all, I was just saying it wouldn't be on the fore front of my mind in such a circumstance, not like you get some gold star at the end of the day if you placed the call first.
Perhaps you did confuse it with another post. But I wonder how much clearer than this i could have made my interpretation of his tactics? 1) Arm yourself, 2) Lock the door, 3) Take a position of cover, 4) Call the police. If you notice arm yourself comes first, call the police is last, after all other tactical considerations are taken care of.

Neither will you get a gold star stalking around your house looking for said bad guy and either getting shot or stabbed and ending up dead. However I am sure all of your friends will comment on how brave you were at your funeral. You can call me a coward or whatever you wish but unless my kids are at my house I will not be leaving my position of cover keeping my girlfriend safe to act like some wannabe cop clearing my house of bad guys. If they attempt to enter where I am they will be warned, then killed if they continue. That to me is prudent action. YOUR options may vary.
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Old October 22, 2008, 10:13 AM   #68
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I always find it interesting that people complain about belligerence and intolerance when referring to others derogatively with "wannabe" and "Rambo."

Going back to the OP, my suggestion would be going to a good shotgun class and finding out yourself if you need/want the SG for home defense. Louis Awerbuck teaches an excellent one that (if you head up to West Virginia) will include house clearing drills. Scott Reitz comes through your area as well, and is exceptional by all accounts. Training with a weapon will show you its advantages/disadvantages far better than the net. It's possible to manuever through a house with a shotgun quite easily if you've had training, just as it's easy to screw up royally doing the same job with a handgun without training (you are behind the corner but is your pistol?).

I know a few people who have a need to respond to "night noises" by leaving the bedroom and moving through the house. That is necessitated by 1) kids being in another part of the house or 2) being concerned enough to look but having no justification for having the cops do the search. The shotgun is used by some of those, while the pistol is used by others. I've used both weapons when checking out such noises and both have their advantages.
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Old October 22, 2008, 12:09 PM   #69
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buzz_knox: I always find it interesting that people complain about belligerence and intolerance when referring to others derogatively with "wannabe" and "Rambo."

I'm always amazed at people that come into a topic late and point fingers for starting a confrontation at the wrong person. Perhaps YOU need to go back and read where your good buddy Katrina Guy became beligerent with both myself and zippy13 when we said our choice of tactics would be different than his. Neither of us said he was wrong until he wouldn't let up. His responses became more and more silly and frankly stupid to the point that wannabe and rambo fit his bravado. When someone chooses, in their circumstances, to remain in their bedroom, behind a locked door, with a gun, and call the police, that is no reason for anyone to question their tactics. It may not be right for you or anyone else, but he has determined it is his best and safest option.

Going back to the OP, my suggestion would be going to a good shotgun class and finding out yourself if you need/want the SG for home defense. Louis Awerbuck teaches an excellent one that (if you head up to West Virginia) will include house clearing drills. Scott Reitz comes through your area as well, and is exceptional by all accounts. Training with a weapon will show you its advantages/disadvantages far better than the net. It's possible to manuever through a house with a shotgun quite easily if you've had training, just as it's easy to screw up royally doing the same job with a handgun without training (you are behind the corner but is your pistol?).

I know a few people who have a need to respond to "night noises" by leaving the bedroom and moving through the house. That is necessitated by 1) kids being in another part of the house or 2) being concerned enough to look but having no justification for having the cops do the search. The shotgun is used by some of those, while the pistol is used by others. I've used both weapons when checking out such noises and both have their advantages.

IF my kids are with me and I suspect someone is in the house my tactics will change and I will become much more offensive in my approach to said bad guys. NO ONE is going to hurt my kids in my house. If they are not there I will hunker down, arm myself, protect my girl friend, wait and listen and call the police IF I actually determine someone is on the house. MY tactics, your options may vary.
Have a nice day.

Last edited by FyredUp; October 22, 2008 at 03:49 PM.
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Old October 22, 2008, 12:18 PM   #70
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My day is quite nice, thank you. Perhaps you should review the thread yourself. You'll find that the person you are defending threw the first stone in post #25. He didn't discuss why his plan worked for him; he said he found it disturbing how many were looking for a confrontation (i.e. they weren't following his plan so they must be looking for a fight).

Basically, you are outraged and derogatory towards one person while defending another engaged in the same conduct.
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Old October 22, 2008, 03:34 PM   #71
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buzz_knox: My day is quite nice, thank you. Perhaps you should review the thread yourself. You'll find that the person you are defending threw the first stone in post #25. He didn't discuss why his plan worked for him; he said he found it disturbing how many were looking for a confrontation (i.e. they weren't following his plan so they must be looking for a fight).

Basically, you are outraged and derogatory towards one person while defending another engaged in the same conduct.
Frankly, I agree with him on the wondering why so many here and on other topics are so willing, almost eager, to shoot or kill someone in their home who has made no aggressive moves towards anyone. Seriously, if I happen to find someone in my home stealing my television I am going to announce that I have a gun and that they should either lie down flat on the floor OR leave immediately. I am not going to shoot someone with my tv in their arms despite the fact that they are in my home. I am not killing someone over stuff. I will defend myself, my girlfriend and my kids all the way up to and including deadly force. So it isn't that I won't do it if I need to, it is the circumstances that I feel I need to that differ from those who will shoot anyone in their home uninvited.

Basically I wonder why YOU feel the need to stick your nose into a disagreement between others that doesn't involve you in any way.
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Old October 22, 2008, 04:13 PM   #72
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buss knox

I wrote #25, and I don't remember casting any stones. It was a month ago...
Quote:
It's not worth killing or being killed over stuff
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noonan
Why I keep my 870 loaded in the closet

If I am waking up groggy in the middle of the night, I want to be able to throw as much lead as possible in the direction of the bad guy's torso as quickly as I can. 8 shells of 00 buck fits the bill.
It's been pointed out, time after time, groggy and guns are a bad combination. Of course, you'll quickly be wide awake when you realize there's someone in your closet. Call it a trench gun, riot gun, tactical, HD, or Shottie, it's ease of operation and devastating fire power favor the shooter: good guy or bag guy.

I'm an old fart, with age and maturity hopefully I've gained some wisdom. My experience with tactical SG's is real world: Twenty-five years ago, I witnessed a kidnapping victim being shot by a tactical shotgun. The expression on that poor girls face will always haunt me. (The grand jury indicted the officer on a charge of involuntary manslaughter.)

So many of you seeming anxious for an armed confrontation is disturbing. You seem convinced, if you go after an intruder with a short shotgun you'll prevail. How many times have we heard of the visiting mother-in-law being mistaken for an intruder in the middle of the night? In my area, where anti drug task forces make no-knock midnight raids at the wrong address, an armed response will get you killed. The last fellow this happened to was legally within his rights, but he's still dead.

What if you actually kill an intruder... some liberal attorney will say you over reacted. The bad guy was just stealing stuff, he didn't threaten you. It's hard to say you were reacting in self defense with a gun that's so obviously offensive. If I hear someone in my house in the middle of the night, I'm going to grab my handgun, lock the bedroom door and call LE. I think my chances of survival are better than if I initiate a confrontation. It's not worth killing or being killed over stuff.

For those of you who read the NRA's monthly column The Armed Citizen, you'll have noticed that tactical shotguns are rarely involved in specific incidents where good guys with guns prevail over bad guys.
This thread began with RepeatDefender wondering if he really needs a HD shotgun. My position (#10) was that it was a waste of money to have a dedicated HD gun -- RD could spend his money on a general purpose firearm. RD seemed to concur, and I thought that would be the end of my involvement with this thread.

Subsequently, Noonan (in post #19) described a middle-of-the-night scenario of groggily shooting buckshot, from his closet kept 870, at the bad guy's torso. I couldn't, in good conscience, let this pass. So, I posted #25, voicing my concern that Noonan's groggy gunning could lead to tragic and costly consequences. I described some real life situations that have molded my position on tactical shotguns. And, I opined that I'd feel safer locked in my bedroom, a handgun at the ready, and LE notified, than looking for a confrontation armed with a HD shotgun. My point wasn't to open a discussion on tactical planning, but to show that MY plan of action didn't include a HD shotgun. I didn't say my way was the only way, but I did cautioned that confrontations have consequences.

Admittedly not aimed at promoting HD shotgun sales, I thought my position was reasonable and prudent. In the next posting, #26, BigJohnp seemed to substantiate my position with his:
Quote:
Repeatdefender asked if he really needed a shotgun for home defense - the answer is no - but buy and keep whatever you want for self defense ( if you choose to) - and please practice so you are competent with the weapon.

Zippy brings up another issue .... The legal side of the decision to keep a weapon ready for self defense is another issue entirely - and we all need to make that decision, keeping in mind any number of personal reasons - and maybe we do it, just because we can...but we all need to understand the issues we have before we make that decision ( kids or grandkids in house, relatives in house, house cleaners in house, contractors in house, etc. ) - how to secure it, is it loaded, etc. - not just the type of weapon, caliber or gague, etc. If all RepeatDefender is doing is having some fun asking questions on what we think he should have for self defense .... maybe its for fun / or maybe its because he lacks some knowledge / and hasn't really come to grips with whether he should have a weapon for defense or not ...
He'll have to decide why he is asking ...

The legal side of what may happen if you decide to use that weapon gets really deep and complicated....and like Zippy said, may have serious repercussions on us personally - emotionally and financially. We all need to be prepared to deal with these things as well - if we ever use a weapon to defend ouselves - and ideally, before we choose to keep a weapon ready to defend ourselves. Its a tough issue.

RepeatDefender, I hope your question is just having fun deciding on what you might want to keep for defensive purposes. Since you've been thru so many changes on your decision of weapon type - please just make sure, its a decision you make with your eyes open.... because " Stuff Happens "......as they say...
I'm curious, buss knox, what is it you specifically object to? Perhaps it's one of my outrageous opinions my opinion like: "groggy and guns are a bad combination;" or perhaps you disliked my "It's not worth killing or being killed over stuff." Perhaps you don't like facing the reality that no-knock warrants are are served at the wrong address.

You commented that I didn't discuss the formulation of my plan. I thought my description of seeing an innocent girl being blown away by the cops was enough to indicate why I wouldn't want to use a shotgun on anyone. Did you forget, this thread is about the necessity to posses a HD shotgun? Does it bother you that it disturbs me to think of some young forum member suffering the same fate as Leslie Landersman? Yes, my plan is defensive in nature, and I advise others to take a defensive posture when only property is being contested.

Don't you get it, I'm trying to minimize the unnecessary loss of life? Perhaps that's your real problem, I'm encroaching into the realm of God and buss knox!
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