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Old September 15, 2008, 01:28 PM   #26
Sixer
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I had a similar situation occur... It took about two days for the ringing in my ears to stop. I will NEVER make the same mistake again. It honestly put the fear of God into me!

My ND also happened with a Glock (G23). I was pre-occupied with the TV while disassembling my gun. The trigger was already in the "fired" position as I proceeded to push the slide forward and off. It got stuck about half way. I first thought that it had come off the rail, so I forced it back into the original position.

Well... the reason it got stuck had nothing to do with the rail. The loaded magazine in the gun was the actual problem. As I kept most of my focus on the TV I jammed the slide back which then chambered a round. I then pulled the trigger and recieved one of the biggest suprises of my life! Luckily the JHP round fired harmlessly into a bookshelf where it lost most of its energy. I think I was in shock for the next 30 min. It makes me shutter everytime I think about it, but I wont be forgetting it anytime soon!

The fact that it was a Glock had nothing to do with it. Any other gun being taken down would have had the safety off. It was my own stupidity that led to the accident. Lesson learned
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Old September 15, 2008, 01:44 PM   #27
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Just outa curiosity, do you have to file a police report for a ND? I mean, if a neighbor hears it and calls the cops and they show up askin what happened... I guess I mean are there legal ramifications assuming no one gets hurt?
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Old September 15, 2008, 01:51 PM   #28
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^^^wow. Like I said in my last post, the magazine is the very first thing I remove before doing anything else to a pistol. Its amazing to me to think that someone would start cleaning a pistol without removing the magazine first, regardless if they thought it was full or not.
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Old September 15, 2008, 01:52 PM   #29
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Welcome to the club, OP!
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Old September 15, 2008, 02:30 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAX
Thereby guaranteeing that when you make a predictable human mistake, and the gun is loaded when you don't expect it to be, you will put a hole into someone you love or at least whom you don't intend to kill.

The first rule is all guns are always loaded. Some people state it as treat all guns as if they are loaded, and that's perfectly fine too. What that first rule simply means is that the safety rules always apply to every gun and in all circumstances, no matter who has "checked" it, no matter where you are, and no matter what you intend to happen when you handle the gun. It doesn't mean "if I think it's unloaded, then I can carry it around with my finger on the trigger while it's pointed at my toddler." It doesn't mean, "if I think it's unloaded, then I can point at my own left hand while pulling the trigger so that I can look cool while disassembling the gun."

The rules are designed to prevent this kind of thinking -- not encourage it!
Please don't get me wrong. I never said that I'm careless about where the muzzle of my firearm goes when I know its unloaded. I don't point it at ANYTHING that doesnt want it to be pointed at. I completely see where the first rule comes from, and if its followed, it would be a great rule to prevent a ND.

However, there are times in training or practicing where you have to point the weapon at something you don't actually intend to shoot. Like dry firing, or practicing drawing from the holster. And I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations. I mean, they even make plastic drop in barrels now just for the added security, so that you can use a real firearm in training demonstrations. This is just how I was taught, so if it makes me a danger or a threat, then thats your opinion. When I was in my firearms class, the instructor taught us that the muzzle of the firearm ALWAYS has to pass over something. Whether it be the floor, the ceiling, your own leg when its in its holster on your waist, you're ALWAYS point it at something you dont intend to shoot. He also taught us that the gun CANNOT physically go off unless you do something to make it go off, like PULL THE TRIGGER. That being said, if someone takes a loaded weapon, sitting in a holster, and places the weapon, holster and all on the table, and the muzzle is pointed in my direction, this doesn't make me uneasy (assuming of course he/she didnt do it intentionally). I mean, come on, Im paranoid about firearms, but I'm not THAT paranoid to the point where I'm afraid of the weapon even when its so blatantly obvious that its unloaded, or I have to worry about it firing itself.

I definately see where you're coming from in your statement that this is why the first rule is there, but like I said, please dont mistake me for someone who goes around pointing the firearm at everything and everyone just because its not loaded. I definately use common sense and display some form of cautiousness and courtesy even around unloaded firearms.
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Old September 15, 2008, 02:44 PM   #31
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to err is human, to forgive is devine,neither is Marine corps policy... Glad you are ok.
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Old September 15, 2008, 02:46 PM   #32
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Quote:
I don't point it at ANYTHING that doesnt want it to be pointed at.
So if someone says, "Please point your gun at me." you would?

Quote:
but I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations.
That's scary...and not NEARLY good enough for me. Sorry. That's what they make plastic replicas for.
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Old September 15, 2008, 02:49 PM   #33
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I can still replay the cartoon in my mind from over 40 years ago I might have been 15.I had just approached my first big game animal down.We loaded up the animal,and drove back to town.Was hanging it up to skin.
Handed my Rem 700 7 mag to my little brother,told him to take it in the house.
The I said "Come back here" I just felt like I should go through the "formality" of sending him in with an open breech.
I can still see that loaded 7mag round spinning through the air.I had just looked at what a 160 gr Sierra does to a human sized antelope when it hits shoulder.I approached the down critter rifle hot,then set it down.It rode home that way.
Sure,some of us are too perfect to mess up.Or some of us think we are,and just haven't gained enough experience,yet.
Do eveything right,and still,never forget a death ray comes out the muzzle.
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Old September 15, 2008, 05:20 PM   #34
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GLP Standard "I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations."

As unlikely as it may seem, a mistake is still possible and in this case it could surely get somebody hurt or killed.

Never point a weapon at somebody or something your are not willing to destroy.
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Old September 15, 2008, 05:54 PM   #35
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This is why I have no fear of guns whatsoever, but I'm terrified by people with guns outside of a structured range environment.

P.S.- I put a .22 round through a house as a kid and scared the living sh*t out of me, which makes me hyper-paranoid about checking chambers before releasing the trigger.
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Old September 15, 2008, 06:48 PM   #36
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"Just had an ND"

Learn from it and move on, as with any other mistake.
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Old September 15, 2008, 07:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
And I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I believe that if both parties agree to it, and both parties have checked the weapon, that it's okay to point a weapon at another person during training, or demonstrations.
Yes, that's the procedure this person followed: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/de...-40/1055649446 I'm sure he thought he was following a safe procedure when he unloaded his gun, checked it, and then also had another person check it.

What he did might have even been his department's policy, but ... well, it wasn't safe, and it isn't safe, to point functional firearms (even unloaded ones) at body parts belonging to human beings whom you are not willing to shoot. I'm glad it was only his own leg that got shot, and not the chest or head of a training partner, or any of the children sitting in front of him.

By the way, there's neither glee nor sarcasm here. I'm not one to rejoice in the misfortunes of others, especially not some poor guy who injured himself in such a spectacular manner that he will literally never live it down because it was caught on video and went viral. There but for the grace of God and all that: people make mistakes.

Please don't think I'm flaming you. I'm really not. I am begging you to reconsider a dangerous habit, and giving you reasons why you might want to do so.

By the way, I agree with you about those plastic barrels. They're the cat's pajamas, all right. They turn a functioning firearm into a non-functioning replica which fits all of your gear, and allow you to do all the basic manipulations you'd ever want to do without endangering anyone.

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Old September 15, 2008, 07:45 PM   #38
Sixer
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Quote:
Just outa curiosity, do you have to file a police report for a ND? I mean, if a neighbor hears it and calls the cops and they show up askin what happened... I guess I mean are there legal ramifications assuming no one gets hurt?
No LEO's ever showed up in my situation. It was strange because I live in pretty nice neighborhood and it happened around 8pm. You'd think somebody would have called the cops.

I actually sat in disbelief for a couple hours, waiting for a knock on the door. Fortunately that never happened. I wasnt about to call and tell on myself either
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Old September 15, 2008, 07:57 PM   #39
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I know of no police or military firearms instructor that teaches you to handle the weapon as you did. I see no reason to drop the hammer/striker and several reasons not to. Reconsider your method of storage. Your hunting experience isn't helping you in this case.

Someone else mentioned administrative procedures for unloading. My agency is taught to do the following:
1. Drop the magazine.
2. Rack the slide five times.
3. Lock the slide back.
4. Visually inspect the chamber.
5. Physically check the chamber.
6. Show it to a buddy on your left and then a buddy on your right to verify. (At home you don't have a buddy, so check it three times. Count in your head and say "it's clear" or "it's empty" each time.)

PS I won't admit to doing something very simliar with a 22 rifle when I had a clean face and couldn't buy beer.
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Old September 15, 2008, 07:57 PM   #40
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Sixer!

you are wrong... that IS a Glock-related ND...

you see, even WITH a loaded mag in it, you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...

you can't take them apart with the mag in, so THAT part would be the same... BUT, you don't have to pull the trigger and THEREFORE, your Nd IS Glock-related...
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Old September 15, 2008, 09:01 PM   #41
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Thank goodness no one was hurt. That said, it amazing how analytical people get after the ND takes place. If there ever is a doubt the gun is loaded, visually checking the chamber take seconds.

I practice dry firing a lot, almost everyday, If I have any doubt about the state of any of my weapons, I check the chamber, even If I don't have a doubt and was just handling an empty weapon, I still check the chamber. Even after squeezing the trigger on a snap cap, I still check the chamber. Doesn't matter the reason, interuption, etc, when in doubt... check the chamber, rack the slide multiple times, etc., doesn't cost a thing but time. Responses like "welcome to the club" are bull, if you follow all the safety rules, you should never have to "join the club".

best regards,

Luis Leon
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Old September 15, 2008, 09:16 PM   #42
porkskin
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Ah, Glock, the undisputed heavyweight king of negligent discharges...
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Old September 15, 2008, 09:25 PM   #43
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Smith66 thanks for posting. Your ND is serious, treat it as such, move on.
You chose to have this gun hobby/gun lifestyle, and this is part of it.
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Old September 15, 2008, 09:51 PM   #44
Deaf Smith
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Smith...

You do know it's going to rain tomorrow?

On the serious side, what happend is a very very good lesson for everyone. No matter how experienced you are, how many schools you've been to, how much trigger time, you can still make THE mistake.

That includes me to!

Glad you had it pointed in a safe direction. I've seen plenty of photos of people who didn't have it in a safe direction!
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Old September 15, 2008, 09:56 PM   #45
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I have just recently had a semi-ND. On my 1873 I usually load one, skip one and load the rest. I do that so I can have an empty cylinder to watch my trigger control, well I got my count wrong and what I thought was an empty cylinder wasn't. It was kind of okay because I was aiming at something I planned on shooting, just not on that pull of the trigger.
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Old September 16, 2008, 12:16 AM   #46
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Quote:
...you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...
At least two of the companies you listed make at least one pistol model that requires the trigger to be pulled for disassembly.

While that may or may not be a problem, it's certainly not a "Glock" problem since there were pistols for many years before Glocks were even thought of that required a trigger pull for disassembly.

It's a very rare ND that can be blamed on equipment though it's common for people to try. NDs are almost invariably the result of violating very simple safety rules.
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Old September 16, 2008, 01:05 AM   #47
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JohnSKA...

You quoted me:

Quote:
...you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...

At least two of the companies you listed make at least one pistol model that requires the trigger to be pulled for disassembly.

OK... let's read that statement CAREFULLY...

...you do not need to pull the triggeer in ANY of my Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols...

I put it that way on purpose... and the "my" describes the pistols that I, Hemicuda own, from those companies... I am FULLY aware that some of those copmpanies make striker-fired guns... but I asure you that none of MY Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Ruger, or Dan Wesson, semi-auto pistols need have the trigger pulled for disassembly... and my statement is 100% totally true!
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Old September 16, 2008, 01:12 AM   #48
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Your post began and ended with the assertion that the ND was Glock related. I therefore naturally assumed that the point of your post was that the ND was Glock related and responded appropriately.

The fact that YOU personally do not own pistols that have this feature is not evidence that this is a Glock issue, it's only evidence of your buying preferences.

In reality the need to pull the trigger for disassembly is NOT exclusive to Glocks nor did it originate with Glocks. There are other gunmakers that make pistols that require the trigger be pulled for disassembly. Your list conveniently contained two of those makers. At least one of those manufacturers was making a gun that required the trigger be pulled for dissassembly LONG before Glock pistols came on the market.

So, while the ND could be construed to be related to the need to pull the trigger for disassembly (in reality it's the result of not following simple safety rules), trying to imply that is a Glock issue (rather than a design issue shared by several products by several manufacturers) is even more incorrect.

The point is that NDs are almost invariably the result of violating very simple safety rules, NOT the fault of the equipment involved.
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Old September 16, 2008, 01:20 AM   #49
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It IS a Glock related issue... he was shooting his ceiling with a Glock, not a Korth, or a Colt 1911, or a NAA Mini...

and this type of Nd (I know what an ND and what an AD are) is not gonna happen with MY guns... it can't...

there ARE others that is can happen with, but he wasn't shooting those, was he? he was shooting a Glock...

If he'd have been ND'ing a Charmin tiolet-paper roll, then it would be Charmin toilet-paper roll related...
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Old September 16, 2008, 01:24 AM   #50
Smith66
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First of all, thanks to everyone for thier replies. I am glad to take advice and hear other people's personal experiences. Secondly, I'm half tempted to say "don't blame the Glock, it functioned flawlessly yet again"...but I won't, because I didn't start this thread to get into the Glock vs ____ thing. Bottom line is, I pulled the trigger = my fault. I've been going over the incident in my head all day, and I know what I did wrong. I'm never going to make those mistakes again. What I've been thinking about is why it happened. I've slipped into some bad habbits that until the other day seemed harmless. I believe that the "negligent" in ND refers to the shooter's (my) mindset. I had become negligent or lazy in my handling of firearms I am very firmiliar with, and that is how a series of mistakes led to an accident. I've done my pennance (thanks, Fr. BillCA ), and I'm tempted to repeat such a drill at least once a week, to keep from becoming negligent again. Thanks again to everybody,

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