shooting clays with a pistol grip stock

[dstaffy]

my buddy I were shooting clays yesterday,and he was wondering if he got a pistol grip stock for his 870 would it improve his scores any since some people have told him they reduce felt recoil. I was just wondering what yall thought about it.

[Musketeer]

He would be better off without an 870 period!

I have an 870 and started shooting trap with it. It beat the hell out of my shoulder and yes, I was holding it properly! For a modest investment you can get a serviceable O/U that will be far more comfortable to shoot. If he is not going to do that then get a stockfitter to cut his 870 stock to fit him better and it should help.

They are good guns but not what you want to shoot 100 targets with on a regular basis. Mine is now my loaner and closet gun (where it is far better suited than my O/U)

Two things:

1. A properly fitted stock WILL help your scores big time. After you get used to it having a gun that fits right will allow it to point far more naturally and keep you in proper posture.

2. The recoil itself does not matter for accuracy although the continued pain may affect future shots if you do not hold the weapon properly in order to avoid said pain. My 870 had to be held so that only a potion of the pad was in direct contact with my body. This was to align the weapon properly with my eyes. The result was all the force on a smaller area, OUCH.

FYI, stock fitting need not be expensive. I had mine done by a local guy (on Long Island of all places) for only $25 earlier this year and that included trimming the metal adjustable butt (which was only for cant and cast off, not pull).

[camaro_thunder92]

To answer the original question... NO. There is no way to properly aim a shotgun with a pistol grip on it. You have to hold it in such a way that you will never get the aim right. Pistol grips are for home defense and making your friends say "Holy S***" when they see it.

If he wants to aim better, do what Musketeer suggested and have it fitted to you.

[Night Watch]

What are you guys shooting trap with - high brass hunting loads?

I've used an 870 for more than 20 years; and, it's never beat the heck out of anything other than, maybe, the clay birds!

Suggest you forget about that pistol grip and concentrate on learning how to shoot, instead! Anything you can do to get your head lower in relation to the barrel's sight line will improve your scores. Other than this, make sure you're, 'married' to the stock before you pull the trigger. Trapshooting ain't all that hard to do; and, the gun's fit isn't all that critical.

You should see our trap line when 2 or 3 hundred guys are shooting with whatever they pulled out of the gun safe; it's not the gun that makes the difference; but, a pistol grip stock ain't for small rapidly moving targets - OK!

[Microgunner]

I've watched Threegun shoot clays with his pistol gripped Remington 1100 combat shotgun he uses in threegun competition. He did very well...too well. But then he's always been a better shot than me.

[dstaffy]

im not sure what he was useing but he kept complaining that the recoil was hurting him.i offered to let him shoot my rem 1100 but its chambered for 3'' magnums.so yes i do use high brass most of the time. the low brass wont cycle so i have to load them into the chamber one at a time.

[dstaffy]

and i was talking about a shoulder stock with a pistol grip.not pistolgrip only.

[hogdogs]

I have goofed around with my Mossberg 20 gauge with pistol grip and may have gotten an average of 20/100 scores... Never shot at 100 at one time but that was my ratio...
Brent

[Night Watch]

i'm not sure what he was using but he kept complaining that the recoil was hurting him. i offered to let him shoot my rem 1100 but its chambered for 3'' magnums. so yes i do use high brass most of the time. the low brass won't cycle so i have to load them into the chamber one at a time.

Well, as long as you're not shooting doubles, that's actually a good thing! Most trapshooting is done on single birds; and, there are few things as annoying as having the shooter to your left ejecting spent hulls at your forty-five hundred dollar, 'thunder piece'.

Whenever I shoot my Browning A-5, I deliberately set the recoil rings to the high brass setting in order to prevent my low brass hulls from ejecting! A lot of times when a new shooter is chasing a bird, he'll forget to tuck the stock in before he pulls the trigger - That could get punishing!

Until he learns how, have your friend mount the gun and tuck the buttstock into his shoulder BEFORE he calls for the bird. Another thing you can do is to remember not to stiffen your shoulders when you fire. Allow yourself to, more or less, 'rock' with the recoil. When you're really concentrating the way you should you won't even feel the gun go off.

I'm older; and, I don't feel the kind of recoil you're talking about until I start to approach the 75 round mark. When I was young, it wouldn't have mattered.

[Microgunner]

and i was talking about a shoulder stock with a pistol grip.not pistolgrip only

Me too.

[johnwilliamson062]

Until he learns how, have your friend mount the gun and tuck the buttstock into his shoulder BEFORE he calls for the bird.

Uhh, everyone I watch/shoot with, and some of them do travel out of state to compete, does this even though they know what they are doing. Maybe not as realistic for a bird flush, but better way to shoot competitively.

Well, as long as you're not shooting doubles, that's actually a good thing! Most trapshooting is done on single birds; and, there are few things as annoying as having the shooter to your left ejecting spent hulls at your forty-five hundred dollar, 'thunder piece'.

Loading more than one shell when shooting singles/trap is considered a safety hazard where I shoot. I did it once. I was politely, but firmly told not to do it again. On 5 stand if you hit the single with one shot you are expected to eject the un fired round before stepping back from the line.

I doubt it would be better simply b/c some of the guys I shoot trap with have pretty much tried everything over the 40 years they have been shooting trap. I am sure they tried the PG+shoulder at some point and tossed it. The most important thing I have learned in trap is that it is mostly about consistency in form. I have seen some guy do some weird things, but as long as they do it everytime it seems to work out.

[oneounceload]

the gun's fit isn't all that critical.

I'll disagree - gun fit IS critical - both to good scores, and to not getting beat up

your shoulder, unless you have some form of injury like rotator, is a bigger area to absorb recoil better than the web of your hand...

think of it this way - if a thumbhole stock would be better, don't you think the millions of trapshooters would have been using them???

Once you shoot a gun that fits you properly, you'll see and FEEL the difference

[mikenbarb]

Just get a good Sims recoil pad, good trap loads and keep the wood stock. And remember that a shotgun isnt aimed with shooting sports and moving targets with shot, Its pointed at the target and fired. Rifles are aimed but you point a shotgun with birdshot at moving or stationary targets. Practice shooting this way and im sure your scores will improve.
+1 oneounce. Gun fit IS critical and one of the most important things in shooting a gun well is having it fit the shooter.

[dstaffy]

ok i talked with my friend htoday i convinced im it would proboly be much cheaper if he had the stock shortend and add a recoil pad than it would be to buy a new stock.

[Night Watch]

Uhh, everyone I watch/shoot with, and some of them do travel out of state to compete, does this even though they know what they are doing. Maybe not as realistic for a bird flush, but better way to shoot competitively.

Some do it more; some do it less. Often when I watch someone tuck the shotgun in for every shot, I think to myself, 'amateur'. When you do a lot of trapshooting holding your head slightly above the stock can be an advantage. In close to the house on straight away shots you want your head down; farther out on the angle shots a slightly raised head will give you a little more lead time.

Loading more than one shell when shooting singles/trap is considered a safety hazard where I shoot. I did it once. I was politely, but firmly told not to do it again. On 5 stand if you hit the single with one shot you are expected to eject the un fired round before stepping back from the line.

Yeah, well that's probably true unless, of course, you happen to be shooting doubles. Which the first two trap houses on our line are always reserved for.

I'll disagree - gun fit IS critical - both to good scores, and to not getting beat up. Your shoulder, unless you have some form of injury like rotator, is a bigger area to absorb recoil better than the web of your hand...

Critical, yes, if you're competing in the upper ten percentile. Not at all critical to the hundreds of regular trapshooters who show up every week with whatever they own to shoot trap. (And, many of them will regularly break 20+ birds during a round.)

If you're getting, 'beat up' I very much doubt that it's the gun. Sometimes I've borrowed shotguns in order to finish a match; if you're any good you adjust to the gun rather than the other way around.

[moonpie312]

a pistol grip stock is great. i love the pistol grip on anything. AK, shotgun, so on and so forth. i have a top folding stock on my mossberg 500. its fun to play with the pistol grip when the stock is folded but not accurate. however with the stock unfolded its great. better able to control and aim the gun easier and a lot more comfortable. really when you got a folder all it comes down to is easy and compact transportation.

[Musketeer]

Critical, yes, if you're competing in the upper ten percentile. Not at all critical to the hundreds of regular trapshooters who show up every week with whatever they own to shoot trap. (And, many of them will regularly break 20+ birds during a round.)

If you're getting, 'beat up' I very much doubt that it's the gun. Sometimes I've borrowed shotguns in order to finish a match; if you're any good you adjust to the gun rather than the other way around.

One of those casual shooters here and I can attest, fit was critical for me.

My 870 did not fit well. In order to get the gun situated properly to bust clays it needed to be held higher up on my shoulder. This amplified the existing problem I feel the 870 and most pump guns have... a high bore axis. The direction of the recoil is actually HIGHER than your shoulder, at least for me. It is kind of like shooting with only the top barrel in an O/U. There is a reason guys shooting O/U use the bottom barrel only for singles or if they have interchangeable barrels the single is mounted low with a high rib, it lowers the bore axis and brings it in line with the shoulder directly as opposed to slightly offset with a higher bore axis. Since I already had fit problems due to my arm length and being short and things got worse fast. I only had a portion of the pad on my shoulder resulting in the same recoil dispersed over 1/2 the pad... That gets to hurting fast.

The result was twofold.

1. The gun not properly fitting meant its natural pointability was compromised. This could be overcome by forcing the gun into an uncomfortable position to gain better pointing but then problem # 2 comes into play...

2. When held to point properly it began to hurt fast! After 50 my shoulder was throbbing and I am only in my mid 30s. It was tucked in and pointed right but having that recoil offset higher than my shoulder and resolved through 1/2 the area intended really beat the snot out of me fast.

I picked up an O/U that had been used once and left locked up by a buddy for 15 years. The stock was adjustable for height, cast off and cant but not pull. Getting it trimmed for pull let all the pieces fall into place.

1. My scores went up after getting used to it.
2. I enjoy shooting more because I can shoot 100 with no pain at all as opposed to packing it in at 50 and being bruised the next day.

Fit is critical to everyone, they just don't know it.

[darkgael]

"Fit is critical to everyone, they just don't know it."
Absolutely. Thinking otherwise, sorry, flies in the face of everything that has been written about shooting a shotgun well, whether it be at clay or real birds, as well as a whole lot of experience.
I do have note about "pistol" grips on target guns, though. I don't own any high end SGs so I have not seen a really top shelf model up close.
Watching the recent Olympics, especially the Skeet competition, it seemed that the shooters had custom stocks that included a grip that looked a lot like a pistol grip.
Here's a pic:
Pete

[Microgunner]

Until he learns how, have your friend mount the gun and tuck the buttstock into his shoulder BEFORE he calls for the bird.

Uhh, everyone I watch/shoot with, and some of them do travel out of state to compete, does this even though they know what they are doing. Maybe not as realistic for a bird flush, but better way to shoot competitively.

Where I shoot the shotgun buttstock must be below your heart until the bird is visible or the shot is disclared a foul. Only casual shooters practicing for hunting season mount the gun prior to calling for the bird.

[famine]

Done that

The first gun I got was an 870 with rifled and smooth barrels. I used it for everything. Put a full stock pistol grip on it for deer hunting and loved it. Went out and shot some informal clays with it and hated it. In my opinion a pistol grip stock is good for shooting ground targets not flying ones. For myself the gun never seemed to point well or feel comfortable shooting into the air with the pistol grip. On the up side it gave me the excuse to get a nice o/u for birds/trap and I have my 870 set up exactly how I want it for deer

[Hemicuda]

And to think I earned my first "200 straight" and subsequently have earned a "250 straight" all with a poor old beat to crap 270 Express Magnum... and my buddy's mom's homeloads...

I must be doing something wrong! my 870 is crap? that's news to me...

to the OP, you GOTTA get that gun to fit better... a custom stock fitter would be nice, but pricey...

All I did was to add an extra 1/2" spacer between the stock and the recoil pad on my 870... then started practicing...

[Musketeer]

Nobody is saying you can't shoot good with an 870, only that it might be a little harder. The fit certainly does not lend itself to everyone and there is a limit on what a stock fitter can do to rectify that.

I am short. The 870 has a high bore axis when you look at the pad and nothing to lessen the recoil as an auto does somewhat. For me the option was going with something else.

Knowing how to properly line up the gun, even when it doesn't fit well, will allow you to bust clays but it might not be comfortable. If it isn't comfortable, if it actually begins to hurt there is a good chance your shooting will be effected.

Fit is critical.

[zippy13]

What we have here, is a failure to communicate...

There seems to be some confusion here about stock types. I suspect that some of the newer and younger shooters are using "pistol grip" and "detached grip" synonymously, they are two different things. So, we're all talking apples and apples, here's a graphic of the three basic stock styles:



If I understand the initial question, based on the graphic:
Would changing a 870 from a wooden pistol grip stock to a detached grip stock reduce recoil?
In general NO, assuming an equal or lighter weight and no integrated buffering system.
You didn't tell us what stock is on the gun now nor the type of load used. With 8+ million 870's out there, there's several stock possibilities. I recommend changing to a Remington Trap stock, and in the process, have it fitted. A smith familiar with Remingtons can make some major fit improvements with minor wood adjustments at the receiver contact. It's one of the advantages of 870's and 1100's.
If a proper fitting, heaver stock doesn't tame enough kick, consider adding a weighted buffer in the butt stock or magazine tube. Other possibilities include a muzzle compensator and shooting lighter and/or slower loads.

Background
1. Recoil and Kick
Those new to shooting may not realize that recoil is based upon the Newtonian physics of action and reaction with the muzzle's ejecta. How it's resisted effects the perceived recoil (kick). The feeling of kick is your body's reaction the the maximum force applied at a given instant in time.
The most common ways to cut kick are to maximize the contact area and to slow the process down. The contact area (shoulder, hands and face) has a lot to do with how the stock is fit. With a pump gun, to lengthen (delay) the recoil time, you can increase the gun's mass and/or add a buffer (recoil pad or mechanism). In a autoloader, the cycling of the action also acts as a buffer. That's way a similar 1100 kicks less than an 870 of the same weight, but the Newtonian recoil is identical.
Pump action shotguns are notorious for their recoil because: They are lightweight, the typical field stock gives many folks an acceptable fit, but not a good one and there is no buffering except for a recoil pad.
2. The detached gip.
Traditional gun design has the barrel above (eccentric to) the center of the resistance to recoil and this causes muzzle hop. It's what adds the smack in the face in addition to the shoulder reaction. Shooting an old school SMG, like a Thompson, will demonstrate how barrel hop is detrimental to control in full-auto fire.
Assault weapon designers found a simple solution - just minimize the eccentricity and hop is minimized, too. This results in a gun that stays on target during auto fire, but looks like a broom stick. While adding the ergonomic necessities. The mass should be distributed evenly above and below the centerline. A low mass detached grip and hollow straight stock with elevated sights are an answer. By reducing the mass to control hop, the kick increases, so a muzzle compensator and buffering system are incorporated. Because of physics, modern assault weapons appear similar.
For years GI's have been trained with detached grips and straight butt stocks without having a clue about the design factors behind them. What works for an assault rifle doesn't apply to traditional target shotguns. If you're an ex-GI in LE, your long gun experience may be limited to detached grips. So a special purpose shotgun with a detached grip is consistent when training with other similar long arms.
I've shot trap and skeet with SWAT team members, they chose traditional target shotguns. Of course, that doesn't mean that Rambo wannabes won't try trap targets with a detached grip.