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Old September 4, 2008, 12:19 AM   #26
pax
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In ordinary indoor lighting, they are incredibly fast.

Absolutely nothing is faster or more intuitive in low light. Nothing. Don't let anyone tell you that night sights are the same, because they're not. When you are moving and the target's moving and the lighting sucks, you want a laser.

They slow you down in sunlight. If you're silly enough to try to use a laser in daylight you deserve what you get.

If you're good at pointshooting anyway (as anyone who wants to be truly competent with a pistol will be, because your sights won't always be there for you), the laser gives you one more threat-focused index.

And if the battery burns out? *shrug* I've still got my sights and I haven't forgotten how to pointshoot. They're a tool, not a crutch.

As an instructor, I love being able to pick up a laser-equipped firearm and demonstrate why the shots are going low when someone yanks a trigger, or show them the circle of safety drawn by the muzzle in compressed low ready, or prove that position Sul doesn't actually point at any body parts -- nor come near to doing so -- when done correctly. I love being able to take a laser-equipped dummy gun and show exactly which body parts are at risk during a sloppy draw or a clumsy-stupid two hand reholster. It's a great teaching tool.

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Old September 4, 2008, 12:31 AM   #27
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I've found it perfect for my KelTec PLR-16; thought so from the beginning, but had to prove it to myself. This is definitely a laser kind of gun. Now, I'm going to get a decent one.
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Old September 4, 2008, 09:56 AM   #28
David Armstrong
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Quote:
1) POI and laser dot can be off by as much as 3" at 25 yards.
2) Lasers need batteries.
3) Lasers will not help with proper trigger pull. So, essentially it only helps
people who don't need help.
In order:
1. It's not bullseye shooting. For combat use that is just fine for almost all problems. If it is not, you still have the iron sights.
2. Flashlights need batteries. Cell phones need batteries. Lots of things need batteries. Yet we use them regularly and expect them to work. Lasers are no different.
3. Iron sights, scopes, etc. will not help with proper trigger pull either. Trigger pull is completley separate from the sights used.

The laser is an effective tool. Most of the folks who bad-mouth them or talk about the "problems" have not had proper training in how to utilize them. Most of the folks who have been trained with them don't take them off their guns.
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Old September 4, 2008, 12:52 PM   #29
Jermtheory
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They slow you down in sunlight. If you're silly enough to try to use a laser in daylight you deserve what you get.

they obviously dont have the same effective range in bright daylight.but one example that comes to mind where they can be very usefull is at close range shooting from the gut...where you cant fully present and weapon retention is high priority.a postition which would normally offer no form of sighting at all.some would say you need no sighting in such a situation,but i fail to see anything but benefits to having that feedback.
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Old September 4, 2008, 01:00 PM   #30
Brian Pfleuger
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Daylight effectiveness of a laser is typically only a factor in the cheaper units or at ranges WELL BEYOND anything in SD. A good laser will be visible in daylight, maybe not blazing sunshine, at 100yds and if your shooting at anything like that distance you've always got your sights.
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Old September 4, 2008, 02:02 PM   #31
Saab1911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetza, Sith Lord
Daylight effectiveness of a laser is typically only a factor in the cheaper units or at ranges WELL BEYOND anything in SD. A good laser will be visible in daylight, maybe not blazing sunshine, at 100yds and if your shooting at anything like that distance you've always got your sights.
But at 100 yards, the laser will be off by as much as a foot from POI. That's
an entire ground hog!

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Old September 4, 2008, 02:40 PM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
But at 100 yards, the laser will be off by as much as a foot from POI. That's
an entire ground hog!
True but if it's a cheapy it will be a foot in diameter too!

Most of them are adjustable as far as I know. I do wonder about the kind that replace the recoil spring holder bar doodad (that's a technical term, hey I don't own a handgun yet I haven't memorized all the parts). I assume they are pointed where they're pointed and thats it.
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Old September 4, 2008, 02:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Peetza
recoil spring holder bar doodad
Recoil Spring Guide Rod
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Old September 4, 2008, 02:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Recoil Spring Guide Rod
That's what I said?!
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Old September 4, 2008, 04:30 PM   #35
Jermtheory
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the Lasermax guide rod isnt adjustable and it can be off by up to 2" at the recommended zeroing range right out of the box.ive also heard alot of complaints with them not holding up to heavy use.

Quote:
But at 100 yards, the laser will be off by as much as a foot from POI.
if so...only due to trajectory.

im not sure where a dead zero at 25 yards would put you at 100 but...

one method of zeroing is to simply align it with the bore.this will put you off at any range by a small ammount(a little low and to the right with the CTC),but the benefit is that you eliminate cross-over and will always be off by that same ammount(aside from bullet trajectory).

there's a far better description given here...

Quote:
Ideally, you zero your CTC Lasergrips just like you'd zero any other off-axis laser like a PEQ-2 or ATPIAL. On a Glock, the CTC laser is roughly 0.5" to the right of the bore and 1.0" below the bore. If you zero your laser to hit 0.5" to the right of your POI, it will "always" be 0.5" right of the POI. By the time you hit 10 yards, the 0.5" offset gets absorbed in the group size. Basically, your laser "should" run dead parallel to your boreline. This prevents crossover at any range and your horizontal offset will never exceed the original 0.5".

Crossover is the real enemy here. With the laser being on the right side of the pistol, if you zero at 25 yards, the laser will be further and further to the right anywhere past your zero distance. The closer the zero, the further it will be off axis as the range increases. This off-axis laser v. boreline will be far worse than the original 0.5" offset zero.

The elevation doesn't really matter. We are always dealing with elevation issues because of iron sight offset and trajectory. However, the further off you zero, the more consistant your hold-off. IE, zero at 25 yards (with the 0.5" offset) and the POI will always be above the laser dot out to 25 yards. If you zero at 50 yards, the laser dot will always be under the POI to 50 yards (absent trajecory issues).

Also, the further out you zero, the more you minimize the laser to bore angles. This prevents the crossover issue and simplifies life signficantly.

Zero at the maximum range that you expect to use the pistol. For me, I zero everything including J frames at 25 yards.
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Old September 4, 2008, 05:57 PM   #36
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Lasers are tools. Useful within their limitations (sometimes incredibly so).

If you are a bad shot, you'll still be a bad shot with a laser.

As pax noted, they make great instructional training aids.

One thing they are useful for is tiered escalation of force. We find that roping visible lasers frequently gets the attention of Iraqis we'd rather not shoot. There are many non-enemy Darwin Award Candidates over here who will drive/walk right into audible gunfire or verbal commands. They tend to freeze, pull over, or retreat indoors after getting splashed by lasers. It saves everyone a lot of unwanted drama.
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Old September 4, 2008, 06:27 PM   #37
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Quote:
One thing they are useful for is tiered escalation of force. We find that roping visible lasers frequently gets the attention of Iraqis we'd rather not shoot. There are many non-enemy Darwin Award Candidates over here who will drive/walk right into audible gunfire or verbal commands. They tend to freeze, pull over, or retreat indoors after getting splashed by lasers. It saves everyone a lot of unwanted drama.
Amazing they can be so dumb and in a third world country and still know what a laser means. You'd think by the time they knew about lasers they'd be dead if they were that stupid.
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Old September 4, 2008, 08:12 PM   #38
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Sholling said: They're a self defense tool and we have discussed on here 8 zillion times

Concur. I have Crimson Trace grips on three of my four handguns. They aren't made for my JC Higgins .22 revolver or my wife's .380 Colt Pocket Model, or else they would have them too. At 77, I am happy to grab any handle that gives me an edge. I shoot weekly at my range, half iron sights and half CT laser. Therefore I know that lasers help me.

Another point. According to some, cats love to chase the red dot, but I doubt if perps would notice the red dot dancing on their chests. They will be looking at 1) the weapon in my hand, or 2) the dazzling red light on it.

It is so easy to reject new things. The first time I tried my first CT-equipped revolver, I was stunned at how the red dot danced all over the place. Then I realized, "Hey, that's me doing that, not the laser!" The red dot still wanders, but I concentrate on trigger pull and let nature take care of the rest. I throw a few, but I usually put most of my rounds into the nine ring of a #24 target at seven yards. I'm happy.

Cordially, Jack
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Old September 5, 2008, 12:13 AM   #39
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I'm think'n to myself, "What is the probability that if/when I get into a SD shooting it will happen after sunset?" I'm not suggesting that I can walk around in condition white between sunrise and sunset, but in all likelihood, the SHTF after the sun goes down. That's the time when the laser sight really shines (good pun, huh?). I like'm and I'm use'n them but they are not the solution to every problem.
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Old September 5, 2008, 03:59 AM   #40
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My Kimber came with CTs. After some problems with the laser CT replaced them because of a bad diode. This set has been on for over a year now and the laser is strong as ever.
The main reason I got the CTs is my eyes are getting older (or my arms are getting shorter!) and I don't focus as well as I used to. Three dot night sights are getting blurry. The video that comes with the grips is very informative.
However, I have read some things presented as facts by the authors (I don't know if they are true) that give me reason to be very glad that I have these grips.
I am not LE. I don't have the same level of training as LEOs. I'm just an average guy with an average life. The articles I've read state that LEOs in a sudden deadly threat situation miss the threat target up to 85% of rounds fired from 7yds or less. I have watched videos of LEOs in a sudden fight pull thier weapon and start firing one handed, looking over the top of the gun never using the sights. Some of these officers have 20yrs or so of training.
I go to the outdoor range and practice firing one handed, from the hip, from behind a telephone pole, while seated at a bench, etc. All with the laser on as I feel it would be in a sudden deadly situation. I doubt I will have time to draw my weapon and bring it up in a nice two handed grip picking up the front sight as I drive it toward the target and squeeze the trigger with the threat lunging at me or pulling a weapon from 5yds. or closer, or worse yet already be in bad breath range or already on the ground. But the chances are good that I might see that red dot on him somewhere.
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Old September 5, 2008, 06:28 AM   #41
ringworm
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thats excatly what i want is a shooting situation or building clearing...
A red light on the end of my gun for the perp to aim at.

the only positive thing i can say about lasers is "glazing" perps. that works. but its not a common enough occorance as to justify the risk of using one.
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Old September 5, 2008, 09:53 AM   #42
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I think we're done here. Thank you for enlightening me. You guys are the best.
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Old September 5, 2008, 05:12 PM   #43
12-34hom
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Laser sighting.

I put a set of C.T. on my 1911, they work great.

Day or night. At 25 yards - no problem there either.

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Old September 6, 2008, 12:09 AM   #44
Jermtheory
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Quote:
thats excatly what i want is a shooting situation or building clearing...
A red light on the end of my gun for the perp to aim at.
if you're using it correctly than they could just as easily be aiming at your muzzle flash.
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Old September 6, 2008, 01:39 AM   #45
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Quote:
thats excatly what i want is a shooting situation or building clearing...
A red light on the end of my gun for the perp to aim at.
The laser is not a flashlight. It is a sighting system. It is not supposed to be lighted up at any time except when you are in the very act of firing the weapon.

If you use the laser as it is intended to be used (as a sighting device, not as a flashlight), the only time the perp is going to see your laser is at the very moment the shot is fired. And the perp will have other things to think about right then...

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Old September 6, 2008, 03:29 AM   #46
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Many good points are made here in this thread. One that comes to mind is a laser increases the safety in certain situations. -you can never ever be too safe with a firearm)
The dot gives a near precise reading of the direction you're pointing.

As far as a combat situation it is great for corners and other sorts of scenarios in urban style environments.
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Old September 7, 2008, 07:01 PM   #47
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Quote:
Are laser sights any good?
Yes.

I was beginning to think that nearly everyone knows how great they are. Guess not.

My only suggestion to non-laser folks is...do not accept a money-challenge to compete against a CT laser equipped shooter....in twilight, the dark, without your spectacles, from awkward positions, off-handed, from the hip, over the top, under the leg, etc.

You will lose. :)

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Old September 8, 2008, 09:47 AM   #48
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i agree with Pax.

Lasers are FAST.

I have a laser on my primary HD gun, and i feel that in an event that might require fast target acquisition without having to raise the gun to eye level, or get into a proper shooting stance, a laser is invaluable.


Good tool for dry fire practice too.
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Old September 8, 2008, 11:01 AM   #49
David Armstrong
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Quote:
thats excatly what i want is a shooting situation or building clearing...
A red light on the end of my gun for the perp to aim at.
Others beat me to it, but I'll add mine anyway: Not if you are doing it right. The laser should only be visible to the perp when you have decided to put it on him to verify the location where you are about to shoot him.
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Old September 9, 2008, 12:52 AM   #50
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i put my green laser pointer on my taurus tracker 6.5" 22lr and it was a hoot. never shot with it like that, but if you've never seen a green laser dot next to a red laser dot during the daytime, you just can't comprehend how much brighter the green dot appears. human eyes are more sensitive to that green wavelength which is a huge factor in how easily you can see your own dot.
i was kind of a gadget nerd and bought my green laser pointer when it was about $160. i think they go for about a third of that nowadays. granted, mine was modified....
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