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Old August 30, 2008, 03:41 AM   #26
shaman
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it was a scary night...

property beside ours on the night of the king riots.

people were literally screaming out our names, calling threats across the fence.

the sherriffs department refused to come down there.

i roughly figured there were over a hundred of them, i saw guns in the crappy binocs i had, and later some folks shot guns into the air right at the property line.

i postitioned myself about two hundred feet from the property line, prone with a drop off behind me, with a 308 galil on a bipod. i only had three 25 round mags for it.

i had a clayco ak underfolder with five mags.

i had no pistol with me. at the house i had two repro 1858 remington 44 blackpowder pistols loaded as absolute last ditch.

my brother was about 75 feet behind me and to my right with my other AK.

my eleven year old nephew had a 1022 with a 25 rounder back at the house.

my mom had only an old webley pistol.

inside the house was an old model 12 with a broken extractor and a worn out ejector, but it had a round of number ones in the barrell. there were three 25's for the 1022 and some 10 rounders, there was an old springfield 22(that had been retired when it once went full auto shooting at a squirrel) loaded up. there was an old iver johnson 20 gauge with a load of buckshot in it. there was a garrett arms repro of an 1859 sharps cavalry carbine loaded with a 375 grain bullet in front of 60 grains of FF blackpowder.

the plan was for me to open up with the galil when they began crossing the fence, one mag then pull back halfway to the brother. my mom was to phone 911 when she heard the galil open up and tell em they better get something there cause is a gun battle going on now.

when i began the pull back he was to open up untill i began firing again in next position. leapfrog like that till...

third mag gone, drop the galil and we would go to single aimed(as good as we could aim in the dark) shots, holding our ground and moving up and down a shallow ditch, unless we were recieving lots of fire, in which case we would fall past an open area and i would go to block and the brother would get past me and circle to my left to try and establish enfilade on the attackers from a treeline there with big pines.

we had two pump shotguns and all the buckshot and slugs in the house in two bags positioned on the road after the wide spot. if we had to or one of us was hit the other was to get to the house and go through the crappy guns there and then...then...die i guess.

sounds crazy doesnt it?

it happened.

east texas.

i was very very very scared.

they never crossed the fence. gangs of em would come to the fence and yell and shoot guns into the air. i could not, simply could not shoot them untill they crossed the fence onto our property.

i lay there all night shivering with fear. my brother the same. i drank the canteen of water i had with me and the pint pilots flask, later my brother said he was parched also.

we decided, the whole family there, that we were gonna fight, that we were not gonna be victims of these people. we decided these people were NOT going to run us off our own property.

i was pretty sure the galil would have shut em down.

these were drunken, doped up folks we were dealing with, wanting to be all angry and act all bigshot.

i was flat out hoping that once i dusted some of em the rest would run.

thank god it didnt happen.



it was almost surreal to hold my M1A in my hands with intent to protect halfway between mount bellvue and dayton texas in stopped traffic the night of the horrid rita evacuation.

recently ive bought a little ar carbine. im beginning to trust it wont jam every shot.

it may become a go to gun.

right now im still on with the M1A or the hk91 clone or the short barrelled mossy 500.

bad time to post. late night, toothache keepin me awake,

now im literally shivering, remembering how freakin scared i was that night with all them people on the next property and the rita thing where it took 22 hours to go 110 miles.

its gonna be a long long night i think.



i aint a bit afraid to admit i was very afraid both of those times, but i knew i had family to protect and i knew i had to, i had to do whatever it would have taken to protect them.

no man threatens me on my own property...
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Old August 30, 2008, 07:38 AM   #27
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What a great accounting.
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Old August 30, 2008, 07:45 AM   #28
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O wait, no you were talking about Afghanistan, not Montana. You're right. A poodle shooter is all anybody needs
Oh wait, we were talking about a SD rifle (ala "fighting rifle")...what was I thinking? Your right, I forgot that you will be picking off "the threat" that is on that other hill...a hill that is here in the states.
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For me its riots, looters, and gang trouble.
Must be lots of terrorists, looters and gangbangers out to get us in them there hills of Montanny. Aliens too.
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Old August 30, 2008, 07:48 AM   #29
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Shaman, Thanks for the story and glad you and yours came away ok.

Your story is kinda what I imagined initially......potentially being attacked by a bunch of men in which case the 223 would be the more efficient caliber because it allows for such fast follow up shots. Now that I have more information and experience with what one might expect from riots, looters, and gang problems, I don't think the need for super fast followups is as great as penetration of each round. Especially in the urban environment which I live.
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Old August 30, 2008, 08:04 AM   #30
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My 'fighting rifle needs' have been filled quite handily by a 94 Winchester and a coat pocket full of WW 150 Power-Points or Silvertips. Of course we were just after bank robbers, killers etc. so it probably isn't relevant to the current thinking.
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Old August 30, 2008, 08:16 AM   #31
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This idea that the caliber is going to make much, if any, difference in the outcome of most situations is just silly.
Remember David I'm simply trying to select in advance a weapon/caliber combination that provides me the attributes that best serve my expected purpose.

If I expect a greater need for penetration then caliber certainly does matter. If I expected a wave attack caliber would also matter.

Take your 10/22 or AR in 223 and try to reach the BG's shooting from behind a vehicle or a block fence or even a dumpster. Yeah I know you are so good that you'll hit them in the head when they pop out to fire right. Well I'm good also.....better than most......I'm also realistic. The pressure of a shootout combined with the erratic movement of the BG's will surely spoil my aim. Same reason we are taught to shoot for COM if I had a rifle chambered in a caliber that could penetrate alot of cover I could increase the size of my target and thus my chances for survival.

These are the reasons I feel caliber matters. It may not matter much but it certainly matters. When you have done just about everything you can to ensure your survival....even the small advantages could be huge.
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Old August 30, 2008, 08:19 AM   #32
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I don't think the need for super fast followups is as great as penetration of each round. Especially in the urban environment which I live.
Not me, I am the other away around. I have shot both the M14 (M1A), the M16 (AR15) as well as the M1 Garand in competition. For me, I know that with my .223, I can very effectively place my shots at 500 yrds with iron sights against a stationary target. At 300 yrds, I can effectively place my shots with rapid fire. Moving targets get fairly easy at 200 yrds.

I have been to the training centers and have done the penetration tests with 5.56, the 7.62x51mm and the 7.62x39mm, both on brick and cinder block faced "structures" as well as against automobiles. All rounds penetrated the building material effectively, although the 5.56 did need one or two extra rounds to take down the barrier enough for the follow-on shots to be a lethal to however was behind the barrier. As for the automobile test, none of the rounds had trouble penetrating and destroying the "occupants" inside. The only safe areas that offered even a modicum of cover was the engine block and the axle areas.

So, for me, in an urban environment...and NOT the foot hills of Montana, the 223 is all I will need.
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Old August 30, 2008, 08:21 AM   #33
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Sarge,

Quote:
My 'fighting rifle needs' have been filled quite handily by a 94 Winchester and a coat pocket full of WW 150 Power-Points or Silvertips. Of course we were just after bank robbers, killers etc. so it probably isn't relevant to the current thinking.
Works for you then its ok. I just prefer something better suited for the worst case scenario. I love my 94....light and handy.
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Old August 30, 2008, 08:28 AM   #34
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Creature, That was my thinking for years. Now I'm worried about the guys not in but on the other side of the car. I don't want to have to fire multiple rounds to exposed someone behind a block wall. Basically I'm questioning the need for speed over the need for penetration. It's driving me crazy.
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Old August 30, 2008, 08:36 AM   #35
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No one is going to want to stay behind a vehicle that is being shot up with 223...trust me. They would be seriously maimed or dead if they stayed.

You should go to the Hernando gun shoot next year and watch the live fire against cars. Most people watch the M2's and the MG42's. But pay attention to the guys with the AR's and what the results are when used against a vehicle in terms of anti-personnel effectiveness. I am always amazed at what that round is capable of...I have always wonder why that round is so disparaged when it is so dang effective.
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Old August 30, 2008, 09:11 AM   #36
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Creature I saw the Box o Truth against a vehicle. The 308 passed through the vehicle and the 223 dented the other side. I'm not allowed to have steel core ammunition which I'm sure would have helped Both get better.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4_2.htm

I noticed that the 223 also deflected upward from it original path. Check out page one were the hits are then see the exit holes on page 2.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:38 AM   #37
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Remember David I'm simply trying to select in advance a weapon/caliber combination that provides me the attributes that best serve my expected purpose.
As happens so often, if you would spend just a little time and money getting some training from professionals in the field you'd realize how silly so much of what you worry about really is. You keep trying to find a hardware solution to what is a software problem.
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Take your 10/22 or AR in 223 and try to reach the BG's shooting from behind a vehicle or a block fence or even a dumpster
With the 10/22 I would select different tactics/responses. The AR is quite capable of reaching the BG behind the vehicle or fence. Your .308 might or might not reach behind the dumpster. The caliber doesn't determine your success.
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Yeah I know you are so good that you'll hit them in the head when they pop out to fire right.
Sigh. Please let me make my own claims regarding my abilities. For you to continually make things up gets old.
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if I had a rifle chambered in a caliber that could penetrate alot of cover I could increase the size of my target and thus my chances for survival.
Sounds to me like you are planning on wasting a lot of ammo.
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When you have done just about everything you can to ensure your survival....even the small advantages could be huge.
Sigh. Playing "what if" on the internet, trying to get some support for your questionable decision-making, gives no advantage small or large. You want something that will increase your chances a whole lot--get some tactical training behind you. Then you'll understand why these "small advantages' aren't advantages at all.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:41 AM   #38
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My 'fighting rifle needs' have been filled quite handily by a 94 Winchester and a coat pocket full of WW 150 Power-Points or Silvertips. Of course we were just after bank robbers, killers etc. so it probably isn't relevant to the current thinking.
Well said. Few situations that can't be handled with a '94 and a man that knows how to use it.
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Old August 30, 2008, 01:19 PM   #39
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Quote:
Quote:
For me its riots, looters, and gang trouble.
Must be lots of terrorists, looters and gangbangers out to get us in them there hills of Montanny. Aliens too.
Attributing quotes to people who didn't say them isn't a good way to further your argument, esp when the entire debate is written down as a matter of public record, and your claims can be so easily disproved.

Just a hint...

Maybe you weren't trying to attribute the last quote to me, but I said no such thing. And I am guessing the poster who did isn't from Montana. I realize two is a large number for us country folk, but maybe if you are that easily confused, you should stick to building blocks and Crayolas
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Old August 30, 2008, 04:42 PM   #40
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Creature I saw the Box o Truth against a vehicle. The 308 passed through the vehicle and the 223 dented the other side.
You really should try it for yourself. What I have seen and done for myself is quite contrary to the box of truth results. The only area of relative safety was behind the engine block and the axle areas...and not even the 7.62x51 was able to penetrate through them either.
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Old August 30, 2008, 07:20 PM   #41
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the question was what do you expect to need for your fighting rifle to be.

that night i needed the galil to be an M60.
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Old August 30, 2008, 07:25 PM   #42
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i expect that i'll need it for weekly trips out to the range, and to make the inside of my safe look prettier.


i dont expect to need to defend myself from a riot or gangs, but i always like being prepared for the unexpected
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Old August 31, 2008, 05:23 AM   #43
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Rifles

The main use for my SKS is cheap plinking. Of course, living in Florida I face the very real possibilty of looters after a hurricane. I'm not too worried about riots, where I live everyone works for a living. I would use my SKS to keep looters off my block.
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Old August 31, 2008, 07:17 AM   #44
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In what order do you put the following attributes for your fighting rifle (most important first)?
amount of ammo that can be carried for it
stopping power
speed of followup shot
ability to penetrate cover

For me, this is for ranges out to no more than 100 yards, urban environment.

I would add to the criteria some additions.

ease of use (some rifles are not as ergonomic as others and hence are more efficient [slower] in bringing to bear and land shots on the target)
compact size (carbine, collapsible stock for easier storage and use in tight quarters)
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:18 AM   #45
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As happens so often, if you would spend just a little time and money getting some training from professionals in the field you'd realize how silly so much of what you worry about really is. You keep trying to find a hardware solution to what is a software problem.
And as so often happens you assume that I have not trained with my rifle. You assume just because I want the best tool for the job, that I cannot make due with what I have available and thats just rediculous.

There is no professional training David that will allow you to shoot as fast and accurate a follow up shot with a 308 as a 223. Just as if your needs lean toward penetration no training will make a 223 punch holes like a 308.

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The caliber doesn't determine your success.
It can limit your options though. The more limits the greater chance of getting hurt IMO.

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You want something that will increase your chances a whole lot--get some tactical training behind you. Then you'll understand why these "small advantages' aren't advantages at all.
Have it already. I'll never understand how a "small advantage" isn't advantagous. I guess with that thinking a small disadvantage isn't a disadvantage at all either.
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:20 AM   #46
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Creature, Thanks. So you don't think the difference in penetration is worth the extra recoil and reduced ammo load?
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:27 AM   #47
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Thanks to all who answered the question without poking fun or making assumptions.
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Old August 31, 2008, 04:41 PM   #48
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So you don't think the difference in penetration is worth the extra recoil and reduced ammo load?
Not really. I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration. But against the types of cover that could be encountered in a urban environment, I am more than satisfied with what the 223 brings to the fight..or, if you like, I am willing to deal with its limitations and adapt.

Unless you are defending against a comparably armed and well-coordinated mob (or even a smaller sized "gang"), the fire-power offered by the 223 is up to the task. I don't expect to reach through cars or cinder block walls to stop a threat on a regular basis. But if I am forced to do so, based on my own observations, I am more than confident that the 223 will be able to do it in a couple or three well placed shots.

For me, the M4-style carbine has proven itself as the best compromise between terminal ballistics and ease of employment. The carbine is as big as I want to get in terms a fighting rifle in the close quarters of a urban environment. The M1A/M-14 is a superb battle rifle, but it is just too big and heavy and wears me out. I dont want to unessasrily fatigue myself when I need to be shootin' and scootin' against a fast moving and street-savvy opponent. (Maybe I should work out some more?)

But like I said, that's me. Certainly, if penetration is king for you, the 7.62x51 will punch that ticket. I wouldn't mind if you showed up at my house to offer a hand in turning back the hordes.
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Old August 31, 2008, 05:31 PM   #49
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Creature,

Quote:
I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration.
The M-4 in 223 is my current go to rifle if the poop ever hit the fan. I love it. Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?
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Old August 31, 2008, 05:41 PM   #50
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Not really. I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration. But against the types of cover that could be encountered in a urban environment, I am more than satisfied with what the 223 brings to the fight..or, if you like, I am willing to deal with its limitations and adapt.

Unless you are defending against a comparably armed and well-coordinated mob (or even a smaller sized "gang"), the fire-power offered by the 223 is up to the task. I don't expect to reach through cars or cinder block walls to stop a threat on a regular basis. But if I am forced to do so, based on my own observations, I am more than confident that the 223 will be able to do it in a couple or three well placed shots.

For me, the M4-style carbine has proven itself as the best compromise between terminal ballistics and ease of employment. The carbine is as big as I want to get in terms a fighting rifle in the close quarters of a urban environment. The M1A/M-14 is a superb battle rifle, but it is just too big and heavy and wears me out. I dont want to unessasrily fatigue myself when I need to be shootin' and scootin' against a fast moving and street-savvy opponent. (Maybe I should work out some more?)

But like I said, that's me. Certainly, if penetration is king for you, the 7.62x51 will punch that ticket. I wouldn't mind if you showed up at my house to offer a hand in turning back the hordes.
^^^^ agreed.

Quote:
Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?
its a trade off.

your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages.

a trade that i personally wouldnt make...but to each his own.
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