The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 28, 2008, 09:12 AM   #1
Saab1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
Posts: 1,176
Language when warning a perp.

I'm a mild mannered guy usually, but when I get riled up, I swear like a Marine.

So, I can easily imagine that if I have to tell a perp that he's about to get
shot or if I'm telling an intruder to freeze, get on the ground,
put hands behind his head and don't move, I would interlace a lot of
expletives in between the words that convey actual instructions.

Would the expletives come back to haunt me later? If there are witnesses
that hear me hurl invectives at the perp, the perp still charges and I shoot
him down, do you think a slimy lawyer can twist the situation into one in
which I provoked the perp with my salty language?

Cheers,

Jae
__________________
45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel
357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel
9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17
22lr: Ruger Mk III/45
Saab1911 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 09:16 AM   #2
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
do you think a slimy lawyer can twist the situation into one in
which I provoked the perp with my salty language?
Doesn't have to be a slimy lawyer. Any lawyer worth his salt will certainly look into the language used in a situation. If it helps his client's case, you can bet it will be brought up.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 09:26 AM   #3
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,545
1. Many classes mention the fact that if you swear, it might convey that you are trying to act like a tough guy and your judgement was impeded towards the commando and maybe shooting when you shouldn't.

2. As we know from years of practical experience and court research, such issues can sway a jury. If you in your frenzy come up with a racial epithet - well, isn't that special.

3. It is the assumption of the internet that felons, psychopaths and other denizens of the night are intimidated by regular old folks saying dirty words. They live in an environment of violence and curses. You ain't saying anything they haven't heard.

They might be more impressed by someone who is rational and not seemingly in a scared, babbling, frenzy.

Time to train for real as compared to fantasizing. Think about what to do if as you yell MF, CS blah, blah - blah, and said miscreant fails to comply. Just gets up and walks to the door.

Was this a trick, troll question, BTW?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 09:31 AM   #4
black
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2008
Location: Vegas
Posts: 173
I wonder about this myself. I don't have a foul mouth at all, but i don't speak like Martha Stewart either.

I was taught to be firm and loud. there is no negotiating.


There is a "STOOOOOOOOOP!" and if they don't stop immediately, it's 2 to the chest.
__________________
MOΛΩN ΛABÉ
black is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 09:39 AM   #5
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
They might be more impressed by someone who is rational and not seemingly in a scared, babbling, frenzy.
Had a con tell me the most frightened he had ever been was when an elderly lady caught him burgling her home. He said that, in the sweetest granma voice you ever heard, from back in the shadows he heard "Excuse me young man, but you are standing where I am about to shoot. "
David Armstrong is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 09:42 AM   #6
Saab1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
Posts: 1,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Was this a trick, troll question, BTW?
What's with people on this forum identifying everybody as trolls?

No. It was a serious question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
He said that, in the sweetest granma voice you ever heard, from back in the shadows he heard "Excuse me young man, but you are standing where I am about to shoot. "
That's good. I'll try to remember that.

Without thinking and talking about this first, if SHTF I would most likely have strung together a bunch of MF, CS for sure, POS definitely, GD yes ... you get the idea. That's just how I talk when I get angry. But I would not have used any racial epithets. Those are not in my vocabulary.

And yes again, it was a serious question , and it appears that others have given the same issue some thought.
__________________
45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel
357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel
9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17
22lr: Ruger Mk III/45
Saab1911 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 09:47 AM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,545
It's when people ask posturing questions that have been answered many times. If it was real, then I'm sorry for my cynicism.

However, the answer is that it's not a good idea. Be rational and cool.

Also, folks like Don't Move better than FREEZE - based on the plosive /d/ as compared to the wussy glide into the F.

Last, if you babble too much - it diverts cognitive capacity - cell phone when driving effect - that's when you get in trouble.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 10:32 AM   #8
TATER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 887
From Childhood I was told two simple rules..
1_A gun is never pulled to intimidate or persuade “you're not law enforcement”
2_There is never a situation so bad that it requires a gun. “Let that sink in a second”
ie._If you have to pull a gun, The Situation Is Well Past 1 & 2....
And all ways know, If a gun is pulled, It is to be used!!!

I’m not going to say a word.......

Last edited by TATER; August 28, 2008 at 10:34 AM. Reason: spell'en
TATER is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 10:46 AM   #9
Saab1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
Posts: 1,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater
From Childhood I was told two simple rules..
1_A gun is never pulled to intimidate or persuade “you're not law enforcement”
2_There is never a situation so bad that it requires a gun. “Let that sink in a second”
ie._If you have to pull a gun, The Situation Is Well Past 1 & 2....
And all ways know, If a gun is pulled, It is to be used!!!
I would rather try to get the guy on the ground with hands behind his head
and try to call the police first before I take a life. But, that's just me.
__________________
45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel
357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel
9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17
22lr: Ruger Mk III/45
Saab1911 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 11:08 AM   #10
TATER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 887
I put them down reversed....2 is 1. But, you got the idea.
If you’re going to play in those waters, know that you're
putting your self and or family at risk!!
You need to go and take some classes..they will tell you what to say..
No need for sarcasm,
TATER is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 12:47 PM   #11
fastforty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 1999
Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia
Posts: 1,161
Keep it simple. A forceful "STOP!" is all that is needed, if the BG doesn't comply, the next sound is "BANG!". ANY derogatory remark will come back to bite you in the butt. Even "Freeze, DIRTBAG!" shows that you have already determined that the aggressor is less then human. We know how the BG's "Human Rights" are upheld in court & you've already reduced yourself below him.

All of the catchy movie lines are out. Your objective isn't to "blow a bog hole" in him, or to "ruin his family's Christmas" or anything else of the like. Your objective is to "STOP!" the attack, make that objective clear and concise & it will remain so in court.
__________________
When Banjos are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos
The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.
fastforty is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 12:57 PM   #12
Recon7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Posts: 707
How often do you take down "perps"?
IMHO they either need to be shot or let go. that doesn't mean don't call the cops, just don't try to go around detaining perps.
there is a good thread about citizens arrest here
Recon7 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:08 PM   #13
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
I guess I am selfish prick... I have no inclination to warn anyone. I am in my home and a person has entered into it thus I am scared that this brazen individual may cause harm to me and mine. For him to run out means he MAY return, I would invoke my right to defend my family. No ifs ands or buts or warnings. Giving a warning depletes a bit of my advantage as well.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:14 PM   #14
Saab1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
Posts: 1,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Recon7
IMHO they either need to be shot or let go. that doesn't mean don't call the cops, just don't try to go around detaining perps.
That's a good point. My first objective is to protective me and mine.

So, the objective is to warn him, and give the perp an out so that he would
run away? If the bad-guy keeps coming toward me, I take him down?

What if the bad guy is rain-man and he stops when I yell STOP!

I see your point, but I think there really are three options. 1) Leave an
avenue for escape for the morally challenged individual. He runs away 2) Put
a cap in his buttocks 3) Or detain him and call police.

What if the bad guy comes back with his friends so that I will not be alive
to identify him?

Nope, detaining the perp, however hazardous sounds like a good option.
If he moves a muscle, I'll be justified in taking his life because he was
fairly warned.

And no salty language. Check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hogdogs
I guess I am selfish prick... I have no inclination to warn anyone. I am in my home and a person has entered into it thus I am scared that this brazen individual may cause harm to me and mine. For him to run out means he MAY return, I would invoke my right to defend my family. No ifs ands or buts or warnings. Giving a warning depletes a bit of my advantage as well.
That's a good point too, but how will it hold up in court?
What if your neighbors say they didn't hear a warning before the gunshot?
__________________
45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel
357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel
9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17
22lr: Ruger Mk III/45
Saab1911 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:16 PM   #15
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Glen and I are actually in 100% agreement on this.

"Anything you say can be held against you in court."

Anything you say, other than the direct command, is distracting from what you want the guy to do. Any excess verbiage takes time you may not have to get his attention.

Angry? There's no need to get angry. You need to be cold and calm to perform as needed to save your life.

"I shot the man to save my life."

sounds a lot better than

"The scumbag came at me, so I popped a cap in his butt just to teach the MF a lesson."
Keltyke is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:26 PM   #16
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Even in the city limits... my neighbors would not have heard a warning unless they were right outside. My nearest neighbor now may not even here the blast where I live now, if they did they surely wouldn't know where it came from. But in court, a neighbor hearing or not hearing a warning holds no water as they could easily have missed it or even heard the perp warning me... It is not my legal responsibility to offer warning. I am in no way required to do so. I am morally required to do my best to protect my family. If i am not 100% positive it is an intruder my likely statement would be a simple "MAY I HELP YOU?" if I do not recognize the voice as someone allowed in my home I MUST fire instantly as I have given up the element of surprise and stealth.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:26 PM   #17
Saab1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
Posts: 1,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltyke
"Anything you say can be held against you in court."

Anything you say, other than the direct command, is distracting from what you want the guy to do. Any excess verbiage takes time you may not have to get his attention.

Angry? There's no need to get angry. You need to be cold and calm to perform as needed to save your life.

"I shot the man to save my life."

sounds a lot better than

"The scumbag came at me, so I popped a cap in his butt just to teach the MF a lesson."
I'm gettin' it.

Until I asked the question, a life and death situation seemed to call for
salty language, but now I know differently.
__________________
45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel
357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel
9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17
22lr: Ruger Mk III/45
Saab1911 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:31 PM   #18
Recon7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Posts: 707
Quote:
What if the bad guy is rain-man and he stops when I yell STOP!
tell him make yourself comfortable the police are on their way, if he wants to leave, let him. Stopping the guy from leaving is no longer self defense. It is hard enough to justify use of force in self defense, I don't want to get charged with assault and kidnapping because I forcably detained a person until the cops arrived. Even if you are 100% in the right it would not be a fun court case.

Quote:
Nope, detaining the perp, however hazardous sounds like a good option.
If he moves a muscle, I'll be justified in taking his life because he was
fairly warned.
NO you can't shoot him in the back if he gets up to leave.

Quote:
What if the bad guy comes back with his friends so that I will not be alive
to identify him?
This is only a factor if the attack happens at your home or work where the guy will be able to find you later. You have a point I wouldn't want to be looking over by shoulder the rest of my life either. If you are worried about retaliation, you may want to consider that a guy you citizens arrested could get out on bail and go after you or get you after serving a short stint in prison. If anything, arresting a person may make retaliation more likely. It's a lose, lose situation. Even if you kill the guy he may have friends.
Recon7 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:32 PM   #19
Sidewinder6
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 27
Its called learning to Speak to the Jury. Never say anything you woundnt want to hear played back to you in a court room.

Fact of the matter is, you dont need to say a thing.
Sidewinder6 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:55 PM   #20
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,369
Quote:
Fact of the matter is, you dont need to say a thing.

Quote:
I guess I am selfish prick... I have no inclination to warn anyone.

Don't forget gentlemen that there a re a fair number of jurisdictions that require not only a verbal warning but also retreat. I'd rather swear like a parrot and give the guy a warning than not say a word and be in jail for murder.

Jae, I don't think anyone has mentioned it but profanity has no place in SD.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 01:56 PM   #21
fjk1911
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2008
Location: CT (People's Republic of Konnecticut
Posts: 65
If I feel that my life is jeopardized my full focus will be on avoiding or neutralizing the threat - e.g. running away if possible or permanently stopping the threat so as to save my life.

I see it as similar to flying (I was a pilot in a younger life)... you are taught to aviate, navigate and lastly, communicate when you are in trouble. Flying is similar to most of life - thousands of hours of boredom with just a few seconds of adrenaline pumping fright. Gain control of the plane, figure out where you are and what have to do next and then talk to a control tower to explain you emergency if need be.

In a life threatening situation my communicating will be with the 911 operator not the threat.
fjk1911 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 02:03 PM   #22
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,369
Quote:
In a life threatening situation my communicating will be with the 911 operator not the threat.
That's all well and good and entirely your option. I'm just pointing out that if the law says you must warn or retreat or both and you do not it will certainly be worse for you than if you said "Freeze Dirtbag!" and then shot someone. In some places the lack of warning/retreat COMPLETELY negates the argument of SD.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 02:16 PM   #23
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
In Florida I have no obligation to retreat or warn intruders of my intention to use lethal force in my home or vehicle.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 02:16 PM   #24
Saab1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Kalifornia
Posts: 1,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by peetza
That's all well and good and entirely your option. I'm just pointing out that if the law says you must warn or retreat or both and you do not it will certainly be worse for you than if you said "Freeze Dirtbag!" and then shot someone. In some places the lack of warning/retreat COMPLETELY negates the argument of SD.
Some states require retreat within one's own house, which I think is BS.

If I'm in my house and I give the BG a warning and he still comes at me,
I'm taking him down.

Thankfully, in Texas you don't have to retreat, and a warning is optional.
__________________
45 ACP: Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 5" barrel
357 magnum: Smith & Wesson 686 6" barrel
9x19: CZ 75B, Glock 17
22lr: Ruger Mk III/45
Saab1911 is offline  
Old August 28, 2008, 02:43 PM   #25
Recon7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2005
Posts: 707
Tango Down

language after warning a perp.
Recon7 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.16293 seconds with 9 queries