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Old August 29, 2008, 01:02 PM   #76
hogdogs
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Actually most home burglaries are just that, simple home burglaries. The BGs aren't there to physically harm anyone.
If no one is home you may have a bit of a point... If anyone is home it is by definition an invasion of my home.

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If that is your assumption, why start a gunfight with them, endangering everyone in the house, when it is not necessary?
Did you read my presumption? I said "presumed to be heavily armed and extremely dangerous."

So I should see that as not necessary? If I could presume the person was unarmed and harmless than it would not be necessary to engage.

Another poster stated that some thieves are only trying to feed a starving family... First I say that is BS!!! If he has the ability to go through the thinking involved to pull off a heist he is smart enough to work. If he is physically able to tote my things off he can bag my groceries at the piggly wiggly! I would not shoot just to save my belongings but I assure you that the items I own are MINE! I have not the available funds nor even credit cards to replace them.
But that is beside the point... The point is these four walls constitute my castle, as paltry as they may be, Everyone within is a cherished life I have chosen to love and live with. It is a heavy responsibility but one I gleefully accept.
I think I have run myself all out of additional things to say on this subject.
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Old August 29, 2008, 05:30 PM   #77
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Actually most home burglaries are just that, simple home burglaries. The BGs aren't there to physically harm anyone.
Right. There's a BIG difference in burglary and home invasion, both in the field and in the court.

Upon discovering the house is occupied, your average burglar will simply turn and leave.

Yes, making the wrong distinction between the two may have fatal results. But people, let's be reasonable and responsible.
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Old August 29, 2008, 05:32 PM   #78
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Fortunately, if someone is in your house, most courts will let you assume they are there to harm you, not just to steal from you.
Most yes, the ones in NY, No.


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I think warnings are legally optional in New York, my state - it's not mentioned in law that I know of.
My state too and you are correct warnings are optional in NY but the legal situations for shooting are VERY narrow, essentially leaving little choice than to give a warning unless the threat is EXTREMELY severe. NY is essentially a "reasonable belief of imminent death/substantial bodily harm state and it is clear that a simple breaking and entering will not qualify in the eyes of the court.


For what it's worth, here's my take on the situation (BG with an arm load of stuff). I'm going to tell him in no uncertain terms to stop (exact verbiage optional), with my gun pointed at him (finger off the trigger). If he stops, freezes, drops the stuff, runs out the door, jumps out the window then we go to the next step of either his surrender and/or 911. If he makes an aggressive move, runs toward me, drops things and reaches in a pocket or points something at me- I shoot. At that point the BG has escalated the confrontation to a physical one, not me.
As for the argument of "Now he knows you've got guns/valuables/whatever." Well, I guess he does and he MIGHT come back, which would suck, but to shoot someone over what MIGHT happen is over the horizon on my moral compass. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't. I'm saying I won't.
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Old August 29, 2008, 05:42 PM   #79
David Armstrong
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I have never studied ballistic survivability.
Then maybe you should pay attention to those that have.
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If no one is home you may have a bit of a point... If anyone is home it is by definition an invasion of my home.
An invasion of your home is not a home invasion. They are two different concepts. And an invasion of your home, at least as presented here, is most likely a simple burglary. Sorry, but that's just the way things are.
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Did you read my presumption? I said "presumed to be heavily armed and extremely dangerous."
Of course I read it. That is why I said "If that is your assumption, why start a gunfight with them, endangering everyone in the house, when it is not necessary?"
Quote:
So I should see that as not necessary?
I tend to view starting a gunfight as a last resort rather than a first option, especially if I am working from the assumption that my opponent(s) will be heavily armed and extremely dangerous. I want to give them the incentive to go bother somebody else instead of encouraging them to start swapping lead with me while my family is downrange.
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Old August 29, 2008, 06:09 PM   #80
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Well, look. After numerous pages of continuing with this thread, maybe an observation would be in order.

1. There are reasons for not firing warning shots in civilian SD situations. They've been stated numerous times and are valid.

2. It' would be shear negligence not to have rules of engagement in military or private security guard duty situations (including warning shots) for obvious reasons.

Replying to point #2 (the subject of the thread) with an argument pertinent to point #1, which isn't relevent to the main point, is a little silly, isn't it?

Just my thoughts (observation) on the matter.
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Old August 29, 2008, 06:30 PM   #81
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1. There are reasons for not firing warning shots in civilian SD situations. They've been stated numerous times and are valid.
My observation is that this is not the thread about warning shots.
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Old August 29, 2008, 06:36 PM   #82
Recon7
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I think it's about language, although I can't remember which one. French? Spanish?

The second page looks like a "should I shoot a burglar in the dark without warning" thread.
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Old August 29, 2008, 06:46 PM   #83
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Pare o dispararé

l'arrêt ou moi tirera

Anschlag oder ich schießen

l'arresto o io sparer

سيقذف موقف أو أنا
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Old August 29, 2008, 06:51 PM   #84
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I have never been in any kind of confrontation. I am sure that the majority here hasn't. But, someone coming into your house is not going to be a ball game where you can call time out to evaluate the situation.

I personally do not think that there will be enough time to really be 100% sure of anything other than someone is in your house that shouldn't be. You cannot read a person's mind and if he/she has broken into your house they have already made it a confrontation.

If I was hungry, I would not steal. Not even for my family. Stealing is wrong and being hungry does not make it right. There are many churches and gov. programs out there to help those who are in need. They just have to ask in most cases.

A person breaking into a home is already desperate and probably doesn't care about the outcome. Sure, they may just be trying to get something to sell to feed their family. But, there is NO WAY to know that. Is your life or your family's lives worth taking a change that the person who is in your house is only after your TV?

Not mine. Take them out if you can and save someone else the turmoil and terror of having their home invaded. And, save the taxpayers from having to house and feed this person.
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Old August 29, 2008, 07:18 PM   #85
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Not mine. Take them out if you can and save someone else the turmoil and terror of having their home invaded. And, save the taxpayers from having to house and feed this person.

Human life, even that of some one gone bad is worth more than my stuff, worth even more than the turmoil of "home invasions" (which is different, legally, that what we are discussing), worth more, clearly, than the "taxpayer money" (that's why we have prisons). No one deserves to die because they are a thief, regardless of the reason. After all, most of us are thieves to one degree or another. Ever taken a pen from work, or wasted your companies time on a gun forum? Yes, I know "that's different". It's different because you didn't go somewhere you weren't invited or scare somebody in the process. So where do we draw the line.

Ask yourself a simple question:
Should thievery be a capitol offense?
Should thievery be a capitol offense if it involves breaking and entering?
What if somebody's a thief because they simply want to be?
What if it's to feed their family (how do YOU tell the difference)?
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Old August 29, 2008, 08:32 PM   #86
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keep it short, well heard and to the point.
+1 BikerRN

As a LEO myself, I think one aspect of a citizen's arrest-type situation is being overlooked: The longer you have the bad guy around, the more likely he is to try to jump you. Doing a solo arrest, with no cuffs and no experience is pretty dicey. A better approach might be "get out of my house or I'll shoot you" or if approached elsewhere "get away from me or I'll shoot you." Confronted with the opportunity to leave or get shot, most bad guys will take the opportunity to leave. They can always go rob someone else.

Survival should be the first objective of the armed citizen. Whether the bad guy gets caught is secondary. Be a good witness, file a police report.
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Old August 29, 2008, 08:38 PM   #87
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Look it's simple,if a b/g breaks in to your house while you are there then it's not a simple robbery,he or they are there to do you harm.Most people that want to steal make sure you aren't home all others should and will pay the price.Toasters and tv's aren't worth shooting someone over but when they purposely break in to my house in the middle of the night, we have a big problem.I'm no commando or rambo,but make no mistake i will shoot anyone that comes between my children and me.It's not that i don't care about others problems but hey don't come stealing from me to support your family or habit,GET A JOB or worse go on welfare and spare me the woe is me speech.No one should have to live in fear or hide in a closet.

Sorry for getting of the thread,but here is my theory on the matter of being quiet,isn't the b/g trying to be as quiet as he can then return the favor and be as quiet as you can,then he can be carried out quietly,so you can go quietly back to sleep
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Old August 29, 2008, 08:46 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by dabigguns357
Look it's simple,if a b/g breaks in to your house while you are there then it's not a simple robbery,he or they are there to do you harm.Most people that want to steal make sure you aren't home all others should and will pay the price.Toasters and tv's aren't worth shooting someone over but when they purposely break in to my house in the middle of the night, we have a big problem.I'm no commando or rambo,but make no mistake i will shoot anyone that comes between my children and me.It's not that i don't care about others problems but hey don't come stealing from me to support your family or habit,GET A JOB or worse go on welfare and spare me the woe is me speech.No one should have to live in fear or hide in a closet.
What if the perp monitored your neighborhood for a while and noted your
routine. And what if you changed your routine on the same day that the
perp decided to rob you? He and you are in close vicinity of each other
on your own property not through his choice, and he had no intention to
do you or your family bodily harm.

In my opinion, the best course is to try to scare the #2 out of him and have
him leave. And I change my mind about citizen's arrest. Too many things
can go wrong. I'm not trained to secure a perp. The options are to try
to persuade the perp to leave or to shoot him.
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Old August 29, 2008, 08:51 PM   #89
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The options are to try to persuade the perp to leave or to shoot him.
I agree. "Drop that stuff! Get out or I will shoot you!"
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Old August 29, 2008, 09:04 PM   #90
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We can what if all day long,but it's still going to be the same outcome,you and he stand in front of each other to what read each others mind,i don't think so.I am going to assume he is armed and dangerous and will treat him as such or he is on the floor by his choosing or mine it's up to him.Oh and i'll make sure to do everything quietly too.
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Old August 29, 2008, 09:14 PM   #91
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three times I have used the words..... "Leave or Die" so far they have all made the right choice.

The other time I have put the red dot on the lead guys chest and that has worked.


I am a firm believer that you DO NOT have to shoot if you pull the gun, and sometimes that pulling the gun at the make or break moment will stop you from being backed in to the position of having to pull the trigger.

I am a property manager part time. I collect rent and on occasion monitor the evictions of people, some people think its ok to sign a lease and then never pay rent. Others, seem to think that robbing me is not stealing because "insurance" will cover it. ( it won't) Since the last time of putting the red dot on the one guy, it seems I have earned a little slack, but what always lurks in my mind is that one day they will just shoot before I know they are there. I wear a vest on the days I collect, but I still am trying to sell the buildings so I can vacate my promise to my friend.
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Old August 29, 2008, 10:50 PM   #92
Nnobby45
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My observation is that this is not the thread about warning shots.
Here, read this part of my post again.

Replying to point #2 (the subject of the thread) with an argument pertinent to point #1, which isn't relevent to the main point, is a little silly, isn't it?


Translation:

75% of the posters on this thread have ignored the original subject and expressed opinions on legal or tactical considerations re: civilian SD warning shots in our country.

The subject of the thread is about foreign country security or guard duty with re: to lethal force policy and warning shot requirements---- WHICH IS NOT RELEVENT TO WARNING SHOTS AS A SD STRATEGY HERE IN THE US.
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Old August 29, 2008, 11:41 PM   #93
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My take on this is as follows;

A: Someone smashes in my door and I'm home, I'm presuming his intentions are as violent as his entry. It's likely I'll have to call for the coroner and buy a new mop.

B: If someone enters my house quietly and I'm checking out a strange noise... well the house isn't very large and he'll be within 20 ft of me and probably less than 12 ft. At close quarters like that, I may have to call for the coroner and buy a new mop.

C: If I'm in the bedroom and hear the movements of an intruder in the other rooms, I'll secure the short (12-ft) hallway at gunpoint while dialing 911. He gets the chance to leave before the PD arrives. If he comes down the hallway, isn't dressed like a firefighter and is not a uniformed officer we get to see how effective 20-ga #3 buckshot can be. I'll almost certainly need to call for the coroner and buy a new mop.

In my townhome, there simply isn't enough room to safely contain someone at gunpoint (proned out and covered from a distance). If he hears me or I call out to him to leave and he fails to do it, then it's his decision to force and engagement, not mine.


Quote:
What if the perp monitored ...
"What if's" don't matter. I don't care why he's there or what he's done before. If he's creeping thru my house in the wee hours, he's up to no good. If he can't follow simple instructions (Don't Move! Hands on your head! Kneel straight down!) why he is there is irrelevant.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:51 AM   #94
David Armstrong
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Look it's simple,if a b/g breaks in to your house while you are there then it's not a simple robbery,he or they are there to do you harm.
But usually they are not there to do you PHYSICAL harm. They are there to steal your stuff. If they are there to harm you, that is almost always going to be the first thing they do, not later on during the event.
Quote:
Sorry for getting of the thread,but here is my theory on the matter of being quiet,isn't the b/g trying to be as quiet as he can then return the favor and be as quiet as you can,then he can be carried out quietly,so you can go quietly back to sleep
Nice thought, but that is not the way it works out.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:56 AM   #95
David Armstrong
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you and he stand in front of each other to what read each others mind
Probably not such a good idea. Don't stand around in front of him, don't try to read minds. Get behind cover/concealement, tell him to go away.
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I am going to assume he is armed and dangerous and will treat him as such
As I've asked before, if that is your assumption why would you want to start a gunfight with your family down range? To assume that everything is going to go right is questionable at best.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:58 AM   #96
David Armstrong
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75% of the posters on this thread have ignored the original subject and expressed opinions on legal or tactical considerations re: civilian SD warning shots in our country.

The subject of the thread is about foreign country security or guard duty with re: to lethal force policy and warning shot requirements---- WHICH IS NOT RELEVENT TO WARNING SHOTS AS A SD STRATEGY HERE IN THE US.
Wrong thread. You want the warning shots thread, not the bad language theread.
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Old August 30, 2008, 11:06 AM   #97
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I usually start with
"hi sailor, new in town" (in a lispy voice)
that usually confuses them long enough for me to draw my weapon and shout (in my classic NY accent)
"freeze moxxxx fuxxxx or ill blow your Fuxxxxx head off!"
Its all in the tone of voice.

you can use the NY style warning for multiple situations
ex
"back off MF'er or i'll rip your F'ing head off"
some folks like to add "and shxx down your neck" but i think thats a little over the top.

i offer online classes for anyone who wants to learn the NY style of threats
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Old August 30, 2008, 12:12 PM   #98
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You never cease to provide me with a chuckle while I'm worrking. Do me a favor and tone it down or I'll laugh loud enough to attract attention of The Man.
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Old August 30, 2008, 12:47 PM   #99
tplumeri
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You never cease to provide me with a chuckle
well, i'm happy about that.
but i wasn't trying to be funny.

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while I'm worrking
geez, hope you're not a brain surgeon!

tom
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Old August 30, 2008, 01:05 PM   #100
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Nope, Truck Driver.

No, I work in a copy shop, so I have a fair bit of down time
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