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Old May 30, 2000, 11:42 PM   #1
andyb
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(I posted the following as a reply in General Discussion/"TX-CHL Holder being hung out to dry". I later realized that it may get little attention there since the subject has been discussed for some time and many would not normally revisit it. I know that the Legal & Political forum is available but a cursory review shows topic diversity and I think deadly force, as an informative discussion subject, is both important and topical for the times - it should be well received. I didn't open a new topic in General Discussion for I thought it best to pass it by here first.)
...........................................

The use (or not) of deadly force is an important subject, made most important with the diversity of state and local statute.

Perhaps deadly force could be a forum of its own on TFL. In the short time I've been a member, I've come to respect the insight and depth of thinking shown here. The analysis and opinion reflected in this thread (TX-CHL Holder being hung out to dry) is an example - not only opinion, but quick research of fact to support further discussion.

A forum dedicated to deadly force may help us, and those who just visit, to know and understand both their responsibilities and their rights in these situations.

I am sure that we will learn much about laws respecting deadly force across the country and those cases that arise from its use. And what is learned here may well save a life ... in more ways than one.

Andy Barr
Virginia
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Old May 31, 2000, 06:26 AM   #2
Schmit
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Andy,

Not for nothing but IMO the AF/CQC Forum is exactly what you are looking for.

------------------
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"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
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Old May 31, 2000, 07:12 PM   #3
Bud Helms
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If we had a Deadly Force Forum, we would see very little of Gunny on the other forums, being the deadly fowl, I mean foul, force that he is on his own. That is, in the interest of saving mankind from attack by fowl beasts, as it were. So to speak.



[This message has been edited by sensop (edited May 31, 2000).]
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Old May 31, 2000, 08:59 PM   #4
Rich Lucibella
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Andy-
I might be convinced, but I don't see it. IMHO, use of deadly force is not something that can be trained, even for LEO's. It's instinctual. If you truly believe your life is in danger and you have no exit and you are willing to take a human life, deadly force rules of engagement apply. Luckily, most jurisdictions still cast the law this way.

I believe a "Deadly Force" Forum will quickly move from appropriate uses to after action "legal survival" tactics. This can be summed up in one sentence: Speak to no one but your attorney.

Like I said, I can be convinced otherwise. But I just don't see enough substance here to warrant a separate Forum. Mas Ayoob would, of course, disagree.
Rich
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Old June 1, 2000, 11:04 PM   #5
Schmit
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Hey Sensops... they were Fowl Terrorist!! But I took care of that threat. I am now becoming convinced the local Turkey Flock is up to something... but can't convince the Colonel.

One day I'll have all the proof I need! Then I'll take them out one by one steathfully with a suppressed .22 using subsonic ammo and fill my freezer!!!

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Old June 2, 2000, 01:02 AM   #6
Bud Helms
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The Big Guys?! (turkeys)

OmiGod! This is getting SERIOUS!

[This message has been edited by sensop (edited June 02, 2000).]
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Old June 2, 2000, 10:19 AM   #7
fed168
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Remember, for use of deadly force, two elements are needed. You must have preclusion, that is, the encounter precludes one from using a lower level of force. The second issue is that of imminent jeopardy, one is about to be seriously hurt or killed.
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Old June 2, 2000, 12:25 PM   #8
andyb
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Rich,
I may agree it's not best for here, particularly since it is on another board. I've let it run here a bit to see what, if any, interest might result with a little time. If you wish to lock this - or delete, please do.

fed168,
You bring up a good point. I am nagged, though, about 3rd party intervention ... not in a silly way of butting in, but when the BG is downright threatening life of another person (not me). I see no reason to interrupt a robbery, for instance, since there's insurance for that - but to not interrupt a dangerous threat to another's life will bug me.

I've been studying VA statutes and they do not spell out GG (Good Guy) stuff, only what to expect if you are a BG - I suppose if I think real hard I can see some reasoning for that, but it tends (my thought) to leave the GG guessing - and hoping - he's right. Nothing even intimating "Good Samaritan" and only a very few items containing "defending own person/property". Ideas anyone?

Anyway, folks ... thanks for the soapbox, I appreciate all the input - I'm learning.

Andy Barr
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Old June 2, 2000, 03:48 PM   #9
Schmit
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Gee I learned the two elements were Perception and Proximity (NC Justice Department CCW Instr Class)

1st - Perception. A reasonable person must perceive an eminent threat of death or bodily harm (includes rape).

2nd - The person threating must be in close enought proximity to carry out the preceived threat.

Example - I couldn't blow someone away if he is standing 50 yards from me threating me with a knife. I would meet test #1 but not #2. However, change that knife to a rifle then I meet both tests and could defend myself.

Of course after meeting both tests then you get into the matter of retreat/avoidence and this really depends on State/Local Laws, etc.

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Schmit
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Old June 2, 2000, 10:02 PM   #10
andyb
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There may be other states with "clarifying" language, but ... until I find one bettert, I like this from Colorado
look here

AB

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 03, 2000).]
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Old June 2, 2000, 10:47 PM   #11
andyb
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Thanks, Dennis - must be late ... I better climb in the crib - considering that.

AB
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Old June 3, 2000, 08:08 PM   #12
Schmit
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sensop:
The Big Guys?! (turkeys)
OmiGod! This is getting SERIOUS[/quote]

OMIGOD! SENSOPS! Took a drive tonight... &lt; 20 miles from the house know what I found!?!?! Some guy has friggen Emu's. OMIGOD! If they get involved in the Fowl Terrorist Conspiracy.....



[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited June 03, 2000).]
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Old June 3, 2000, 08:49 PM   #13
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Oh jeez, Gunny! I gotta tell you a story about emus. As you know, I used to be a crew member (sensop operator) on the A-model C-130 Spectre Gunship (AC-130A). We flew out of Eglin Aux Fld 3 (Duke Fld), in Florida, near Fort Walton Beach.

There was a guy with an emu farm that was close to the reservation border, up near I-10. We spotted these things and went to investigate (a little too low, I'll admit) the "ostrich farm". Well, to make a long story short, these emus freaked and started running all over the place (they were fenced in) and several of them committed suicide by crashing headlong into the fence at full throttle (breakneck speed, as it were)! The pilot got called in to the commander's office and got a thrashing over the incident and wouldn't go near the place until he was about to leave the unit. Then he went on a strafing run again. You should have seen those buggars scatter!

I don't how much $$ the emu farmer got out of the gov't for his dead emus, but I'm sure it was ample. Price of emu meat went down for a week or two, too. He finally got out of the business. Gov't is slow to pay, don't you know! HaaaaaaaaHaHa!
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Old June 3, 2000, 09:18 PM   #14
terridarri
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SENSOP special menu for you in August, Emu on the grill, now don't everyone get jealous but Sensop ask for this special.

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Old June 3, 2000, 09:35 PM   #15
andyb
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Well, I guess I missed the boat on this "topic". But the asides are funny so it was worth the shot.

Years ago - in another life - a rancher of some importance used to give big barbecue shindigs for other persons of some importance. Well, losing a beef on purpose was not "writeable" but if loss was due to self-inflicted accident, I guess it was a write-off. Seems that low flying planes spooked beef and "sometimes" one would break a leg or something. Strange how broken legs and barbecues always came a day or two apart.
AB

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2nd AMENdment - "So Be It."
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Old June 3, 2000, 10:09 PM   #16
Bud Helms
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Terri,

You're on!
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Old June 3, 2000, 10:13 PM   #17
terridarri
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Sensop OMG
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You're on![/quote]
Don't tell Gunslinger. LOL


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WHEN IT COMES TO FRIENDS THE SKY IS NOT THE LIMIT
TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
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