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Old November 12, 2008, 03:02 PM   #76
JohnH1963
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What about shooting one of those shotgun shells designed to be a noisemaker?

Lets say you are in your house and hear activity downstairs. Instead of going to clear the house, why not fire a round into the air while in your bedroom with a set of earplugs on?

I know this would give away your position, but if I was a burglar and heard a shotgun go off then I would head for the door without question.
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Old November 12, 2008, 03:20 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NukeCop
I'm bringing it up because where I'm currently at, mandates the use of warning shots unless hostilities are already in progress.
In this century, I have never seen anyplace that authorizes warning shots, or any century for that matter. Too many stories out there where people fire rounds into the sky and they kill or injure bystanders miles away. Your place of business is just waiting for a lawsuit.

You could always load one or two blanks, then always fire one or two warning shots - that would be absolutely acceptable. Then why not just carry a cap gun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NukeCop
Also, when we have to shoot, the Regulation reads, "with intent to disable, never to kill"... It goes so far as to aim anywhere other then the head/heart..
.

This one is almost correct... Should read always shoot to stop the action that caused you to use deadly force... Then your training records should indicate you were trained to aim center mass on any target, whether it be paper on the range or a person in the field. Center mass gives you the greatest possibility of hitting your target and not hitting any bystanders.

I always aim center mass...
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Old November 12, 2008, 03:26 PM   #78
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Quote:
What about shooting one of those shotgun shells designed to be a noisemaker?

Lets say you are in your house and hear activity downstairs. Instead of going to clear the house, why not fire a round into the air while in your bedroom with a set of earplugs on?

I know this would give away your position, but if I was a burglar and heard a shotgun go off then I would head for the door without question.
Well then why not just throw a brick of lit firecrackers...the buglar will think you have a machine gun!

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Old November 12, 2008, 03:48 PM   #79
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Lets say you are in your house and hear activity downstairs. Instead of going to clear the house, why not fire a round into the air while in your bedroom with a set of earplugs on? I know this would give away your position, but if I was a burglar and heard a shotgun go off then I would head for the door without question.
Or might you assume that the resident had just shot himself accidentally?
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Old November 12, 2008, 04:33 PM   #80
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One question for all those who advocate warning shots:

From Wikipedia: "On the ground, a warning shot from a pistol, rifle, or shotgun is fired into the air, or occasionally into a nearby object, or aimed so that the shot passes the one being warned harmlessly. This is a sufficiently aggressive act to demand attention, and alert onlookers that they might be shot if directions are not followed."

Who is responsible for the round (warning shot) when it kills or seriously injures another completely oblivious person?

Answer: Whoever pulled the trigger (you).

Are you willing to except that responsibility to scare someone? If it warrants shooting a gun, shoot the threat. If it doesn't, hit the panic alarm on your car/home/etc., blow a whistle, scream, etc.

Or if you are dealing with someone in the military or law enforcement - just yell "Cease Fire."
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Old November 12, 2008, 07:46 PM   #81
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To answer Hook 686, the particular area is considered a gray area. I'm not disclosing a location for confidential reason. But yes, when LE and Force Protection is your AFSC, you carry live ammuniton.... Lots of it.
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Old November 13, 2008, 01:41 AM   #82
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I've seen reports of bullets ricochet off of everything from glass, brick, dirt, even water. It all depends on so many variables including speed, angel, air density, temperature, etc. The only thing I can think off that a round would not ricochet off of is a human body (maybe a skull). Warning shots are NEVER a good idea considering the legal effects of a stray round going somewhere it shouldn't. I would hate to think of firing a warning shot only to have it bounce off of something and strike me. Then the BG gets my money, tv, and even worse my gun. The only time a warning shot would make any sense to me is if it's meant to scare off a large dangerous animal such as a bear or something that would only get really ****** if you shot it with a 9mm.
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Old November 14, 2008, 08:14 PM   #83
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Quote:
Who is responsible for the round (warning shot) when it kills or seriously injures another completely oblivious person?

Answer: Whoever pulled the trigger (you).
In some locales, the perpetrator of the original crime will be charged. For example, somebody comes into your home and kills your wife. You chase him out and fire a warning shot and he stops and goes to ground (God knows why) You find out later that your warning shot kills an innocent bystander. This all comes out under investigation. He is charged with both killings.

I'm definitely not advocating warning shots; my opinion is in fact the opposite. But, this is a possibility in certain locations where people are obviously sick of the "criminal justice system," and their legislators have listened.
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Old November 15, 2008, 07:16 AM   #84
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Quote:
In some locales, the perpetrator of the original crime will be charged. For example, somebody comes into your home and kills your wife. You chase him out and fire a warning shot and he stops and goes to ground (God knows why) You find out later that your warning shot kills an innocent bystander. This all comes out under investigation. He is charged with both killings.
The likelihood of your scenario is incredibly slim at best...and I dont believe for one second that you will get off scot-free. Yes, the criminal may get additional charges, but you will be charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide at a minimum.
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Old November 15, 2008, 11:53 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie-Ray
In some locales, the perpetrator of the original crime will be charged. For example, somebody comes into your home and kills your wife. You chase him out and fire a warning shot and he stops and goes to ground ...You find out later that your warning shot kills an innocent bystander. This all comes out under investigation. He is charged with both killings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creature
...and I dont believe for one second that you will get off scot-free. Yes, the criminal may get additional charges, but you will be charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide at a minimum...
I agree with Creature. And while the original perpetrator will have criminal liability under the felony murder rule, you will bear the brunt of the civil liability. You're the one who will get sued, because you're the one with the money and property.
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Old November 15, 2008, 02:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
Quote:
In some locales, the perpetrator of the original crime will be charged. For example, somebody comes into your home and kills your wife. You chase him out and fire a warning shot and he stops and goes to ground (God knows why) You find out later that your warning shot kills an innocent bystander. This all comes out under investigation. He is charged with both killings.
And while the original perpetrator will have criminal liability under the felony murder rule, you will bear the brunt of the civil liability. You're the one who will get sued, because you're the one with the money and property.
Exactly. Getting attacked doesnt give you a free check to injure or kill innocent bystanders.
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Old November 16, 2008, 09:46 AM   #87
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I am opposed to your warning shot, particularly when it enters my house and into my forehead.

Bad idea.
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Old November 17, 2008, 01:30 AM   #88
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Not exactly the same circumstances, but this is what I was talking about:

Sheriff: Attempted carjacker gets shot
Jared Taylor
November 10, 2008 - 6:32PM

EDINBURG -- The clerk warned Alejandro Salinas about the suspicious men who had been hanging out in front of the convenience store for the past hour.He told Salinas to be careful as he went back out to his Chevrolet Z-71 pickup truck, that he had just filled at the Aziz Convenience Store about 11 a.m. Saturday.Salinas walked out to his truck and hopped in.
But before he could close the door, 18-year-old Hector Severo Ramos was holding a .25-caliber pistol at Salinas' neck, said Hidalgo County Sheriff Lupe Treviño."He says ‘Get out of the truck. I'm going to take it and I'm going to kill you," Treviño said of Ramos. Salinas told the gunman to calm down; they could work things out. Then he pushed Ramos' pistol away, pulled out his own pistol and fired two 9 mm bullets into Ramos' chest. Ramos fired once into the air and his arms fell onto Salinas.The two men tumbled to the pavement as blood spilled from Ramos' chest. Three men who were with Ramos took off from the convenience store at Texas Highway 107 and Alamo Road in a brown Chevrolet Impala, deputies said. Sheriff's deputies responded to the scene and emergency crews rushed Ramos to McAllen Medical Center, where he died upon arrival.
Salinas had a license to carry a concealed firearm and a clean criminal record, Treviño said.
Ramos, a U.S. citizen who lived in South Alamo, had been arrested for giving a false report to a police officer, aggravated robbery, theft and engaging in organized criminal activity, Treviño said. Ramos may have been involved with a local gang or attempting to start a new one, Treviño said. Deputies continue to look for the three men who were with Ramos before he was shot. They could face murder and aggravated robbery charges, Treviño said.
"If they fled knowing (Ramos) was dying at the scene and they were all responsible for the commission of this felony, then they could be held liable for that," Treviño said. Meanwhile, the sheriff said he would likely not pursue criminal charges against Salinas, who told deputies he killed Ramos in self-defense. "This is not a murder," Treviño said. "This is a justifiable homicide."
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Old November 17, 2008, 04:13 PM   #89
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Warn shots are forbidden by every LE depart I am aware of including mine for all the reasons stated above.
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Old November 17, 2008, 05:47 PM   #90
JohnH1963
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warning_shot

As the wikipedia entry indicates, the warning shot was really meant for ships and aircraft whose radios were not functioning OR where there might be some type of communications barrier. A warning shot makes sense with ships and aircraft.

The effect of a warning shot could be two fold in certain situations on the ground. The target could either go to the ground OR the target might make a last ditch charge at you in which 1) they get to you and take away your weapon or 2) you have to shoot the target before they get to you.

The reason why you would not fire a warning shot on the ground is because you dont know what the target might do next. You think they might just drop to the ground or cease hostility when in reality it might provoke the situation further to where your pistol is either taken from you or the target is fired upon.
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Old November 17, 2008, 06:33 PM   #91
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Warning shots are for Navy boats!


looks, like someone beat me to it.
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Old November 18, 2008, 03:10 PM   #92
Sulaco2
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"The reason why you would not fire a warning shot on the ground is because you dont know what the target might do next".

Not to mention the little matter of rickoshay and not knowing where in H%*^ the round will end up! With my luck it would be in a Nun on the way to church!
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Old November 18, 2008, 03:38 PM   #93
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Quote:
What about shooting one of those shotgun shells designed to be a noisemaker?
Another warning shot thread?

No professional trainer, or knowledgeable person would advocate relying on a loud harmless noise to frighten a criminal who's weapon would be loaded with real bullets.

The only folks who would advocate (or require) responding to lethal force with non lethal force are liberal anti-gun gas bag politicians and activists and the uninformed.

Since you're just asking a question, I won't put you in that category. And, I wouldn't rule out 100% the warning shot as appropriate under certain, but rare, circumstances.

Your assumption that you'd hear him in plenty of time to put on your ear muffs and send him on his way with a loud noise, and that Bubba would act a certain way because that's what you'd do could be hazardous. Sometimes Bubba might answer with some gunfire of his own.
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Old November 18, 2008, 03:45 PM   #94
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Quote:
Another warning shot thread?

No professional trainer, or knowledgeable person would advocate relying on a loud harmless noise to frighten a criminal who's weapon would be loaded with real bullets.
Yep. And I always find it amusing when someone suggests that racking the slide of a scattergun will scare the bad guy into soiling his pants and running away. Fact is, when you "warn" your adversary in a combat situation, you've just abandoned the most important advantage you already possess over him - that of surprise.
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Old November 18, 2008, 04:07 PM   #95
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My shotgun needs to be racked before it is of any use to me. I do that not to warn intruders, but because I'm not comfortable having a live round in the chamber on a gun that sits in my closet. Now the pistol I wear on my hip is another story, chamered and cocked. If it comes out of my holster I expect it to do business. My warning shot is the first round into the target.
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Old November 18, 2008, 06:11 PM   #96
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My shotgun needs to be racked before it is of any use to me. I do that not to warn intruders, but because I'm not comfortable having a live round in the chamber on a gun that sits in my closet.
That's how shotguns are kept, since many, like the 870 aren't drop safe. There are other safety concerns, as well.

LE is taught to rack the shotgun when "it's use looks imminent". In a home situation that could alert the intruder, but you'll find with a little practice, that you can, from a low ready, rack a shotgun and bring it on target with just about zero time lost over a shotgun that's already racked.

If you have some warning, it can be racked a little more discreetly where most of the noise is the shell popping out of the magazine.
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Old November 18, 2008, 10:06 PM   #97
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Remembering my Kansas CCL training they say no warning shots/shots to disable. The thinking is that if you "need" a warning shot or shot to disable the situation doesn't justify the use of deadly force.
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Old November 19, 2008, 08:02 PM   #98
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On LEAs authorizing warning shots:

At least two LEAs allow for warning shots under specific circumstances: the USSS and CBP. The DOS and DOE possibly do, as well, again under specific circumstances, but have not been able to confirm it. (To head off the questions, no, I won't discuss when and why they are authorized to do so.)
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Old November 19, 2008, 08:44 PM   #99
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Nnobby45

I don't know what cruzer ready scatterguns has to do with warning shots? I simply wanted to comment on drop safe scatterguns, besides the AA-12 I know of "0" shotguns that lock the sear and are drop safe.

In regard to "racked a little more discreetly" please take some time to re visit this, doing anything but vigorously pumping your scattergun, travels you down the road to multiple malufactionville.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old November 21, 2008, 11:01 PM   #100
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our roe in iraq stayed we had to initiate a warning shot at vehicles coming within 150m of our peremiter, after 100m it was shoot to kill.

i fired 6 warning shots, 4 with a .50bmg and 2 with 5.56 into the vehicles grille.

nukecop, are you using a M9? its a horribly inacurate pistol(especialy with fixed sites) you could use that in your defence.

also remember "its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
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