The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 9, 2008, 11:28 PM   #76
omkhan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
U guys r lucky to have any caliber u want, even a .50. Here in Pakistan, we, the civilians, r not allowed anything bigger than .22 when it comes to rifles. Anything above it even a .222 is considered a Prohibited bore. Ofcourse anything is possible here in Pk but u have to be big, really big for that.
omkhan is offline  
Old September 10, 2008, 01:49 PM   #77
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
threegun (or should I say Walter Smitty),

If you want to buy a friggin .308 in an AR type platform, just do it. Stop making up ridiculous scenarios to justify your purchase.

You live in Tampa (in an urban setting from your posts) for crying out loud. What are the chances you will really NEED a .308 to defend yourself? You are talking about shooting through cover and what not.

For your threats, you mentioned riots, looters, and gang attacks. When is the last time Tampa had a riot? Do you actually live close to the bad parts of town where riots typically occur? If so, saving your money and moving to a better area would be a much better option. As for the looters, are you really that much of a target? Looting normally occurs in grocery stores where people need essentials and then moves to non-essesntials when civil unrest sets in. I went through hurrican Andrew and I helped out during the recover efforts. I saw all that stuff first hand. Looters rarely go into residential neighrborhoods since that is not where the goods are concentrated. As for your gang attack scenario, have you done something to **** off some gang members? Are you the leader of a rival gang? What do you think your actual chances of being target by a gang attack are?

Like I said, buy whatever the heck you want to buy but don't make up ridiculous scenarios for it. If some antis stumbled across they post, it would read like most people here are gun nuts hell bent on shooting people. There is a difference between self defense and murder. Some of your scenarios blur the lines quite a bit.
Stephen, Missed your post sorry. I googled walter smitty thinking that you were poking at me.....but no I don't have alternate names........if the name was a sarcastic comparison to another.....please explain.

To answer some of your questions there have been 2 riots which were very close to home. In 1989 residents of College Hill projects rioted. I was dispatched to protect my grandparents and their printing business (same location). In 1996 St Petersburg was the scene of a riot after a white police officer shot and killed a black thug.

The mixture of minorities in low income housing seems to offer the greatest danger of riots in my area and as history has shown things can happen overnight.

My community is good. However recent changes in public housing have brought riffraff to my neighborhood in the form of government subsidized rent in a couple of apartment complexes in my area. Gangs and the threat of riot are very possible concerns.

Hillsborough county Sheriff David Gee just posted numbers about gang membership in Florida. At around 67,000 and growing every day. They plan a 7 month push to interrupt them but gangs have been growing despite the valiant efforts of LE.

Now that I have answered your questions please ignore my future posts if you are going to attack instead of contributing. My thread is title pros and cons of the 223 vs 308. If you feel it or my scenarios are silly ignore them. I was looking for educated guidance not approval.

Quote:
There is a difference between self defense and murder. Some of your scenarios blur the lines quite a bit.
Shooting someone who is using cover while trying to kill me is hardly murder.
threegun is offline  
Old September 10, 2008, 05:48 PM   #78
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Exactly. Too many get wrapped up in trying to purchase a haradware solution to what is really a softwareproblem.
And you insist this to be my case without having a clue as to what I can or can't do with my rifle. You assume that I'm searching for a rifle to make up for my lack of ability, yet another guess.
threegun is offline  
Old September 10, 2008, 11:22 PM   #79
Striker071
Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2008
Posts: 87
First of all I would like to say that some of the reasons the 6.8 round was developed was because of the lack of effectiveness of the .223/5.56 in certain cases. There are units currently in Iraq that are trying to get their hands on M14's because of there effectiveness. Some of the BG's are taking multiple rounds of 5.56 and are still fighting back. yes they may not be 100% combat effective at that point but they are still in the fight. I currently own a FAL 16 inch barrel. I have a load bearing vest loaded with 6 20 round magazines and one in the case for the weapon. so 140 rounds of 308 that can be fired realatively quickly. To me its kind of the reason most Tactical police units are going back to 45 calibers. Knock Down. 9mm just doesnt cut it. I personally saw a incident where a police officer shot a person 6 or 7 times with a 9 mm and local officer that still had a 357 magnum put the guy down with one shot. If the crap hits the proverbial fan well you better have a small stock pile of whatever you use.
Striker071 is offline  
Old September 11, 2008, 04:40 AM   #80
Firepower!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2008
Posts: 2,109
it depnds

Well I have both calibers in M4A1 (5.56X45) and G3A3 (7.62X51).

They are both useful with unique benefits that are partial to given situation. If your combat zone is mostly within 200 yards then there is really no need for a 308 Win. However, if you are fighting off enemy beyond that rand a 223 Rem. could come up short depending on what you are hitting at.

These two calibers are not replacement for each other. I would really retain both, but if I had to keep one it would be a 308 for its multi purpose usability.
Firepower! is offline  
Old September 11, 2008, 09:47 AM   #81
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
To me its kind of the reason most Tactical police units are going back to 45 calibers.
But most tac units ARE NOT going to .45. The .45 is still fairly rare for tactical police units, which is why (in part) it gets lots of attention when one decides to go with it.
Quote:
I personally saw a incident where a police officer shot a person 6 or 7 times with a 9 mm and local officer that still had a 357 magnum put the guy down with one shot.
And there are numerous examples of BGs taking multiple CoM hits with .45 and still functioning. No handgun caliber can be considered a reliable stopper.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old September 11, 2008, 10:55 PM   #82
Striker071
Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2008
Posts: 87
LAPD SWAT back to 45... FBI HRT 45... or so I have been told. Please dont confuse the issue of well placed shots... they should turn someone off rather quickly no matter what the caliber. It is all about mass... (I wish my physisist buddy was here to give me the right statement). The bigger bullet usually has better stopping effect... again my opinion... wish I had sopme hard data to back it up will try and find some and post it up
Striker071 is offline  
Old September 12, 2008, 02:21 PM   #83
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
These two calibers are not replacement for each other. I would really retain both, but if I had to keep one it would be a 308 for its multi purpose usability.
I've decided to add the 308 AR as an addition to my 223's. When I give it a serious personal whirl and if it can hang with my 223's all around, I may change.
threegun is offline  
Old September 12, 2008, 02:25 PM   #84
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
LAPD SWAT back to 45... FBI HRT 45
Sorry, but 2 units does no tmake a trend, particularly in light of the huge number of units that have not changed, and are getting by just fine with the 9s and 40s and other calibers they use.
Quote:
It is all about mass
No. Mass is only one part of it, certainly not all. Velocity plays a big role. Design is perhaps the biggest player these days.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old September 12, 2008, 03:38 PM   #85
AnonymousOne
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: VA
Posts: 21
ya know...

Yes I know I'm a noobie here,but has anyone in this thread mentioned the 6.5 Grendel?

I know that ammo is a bit scarce for it right now but the round was designed as a compromise between the 5.56 and the 7.62x51. It's still light, so you can carry a decent amount of ammo, but it has a lot more carry and punch at extended ranges.

Just throwing a thought out.
__________________
Sig 226 (Made in W.Germany)
"If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action."-Ludwig von Mises
AnonymousOne is offline  
Old September 12, 2008, 05:58 PM   #86
bcarver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2007
Location: Jackson,Mississippi
Posts: 836
way of course

Hey Stryker
FbI Yes they did buy 45. Confirmed purchase of 500 1911 style 45 autos.
Weather or not they were issued I am unsure.
Hey anonomousone
there are two kinds of people 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 spc.
there can be only one.
and yes it has been mentioned.
The biggest self defense situation I foresee is a "Katrina" Type senario.
If you didn't live in the affected are you will not understand.
Either gun would suffice.
Most adversaries would be poorly trained and unexperianced.
Most situations with thugs end when fire is returned.
Most thugs are cowards that feel empowered by weapons
I recently witness three young men run from a parking lot after approach a suv with a gun. The driver pulled his own weapon and started shooting first.
The three ran so fast they ran toward and past two police. The police caught two of them and the third about 10 minutes later when he returned.
the third man did not even see the police(crowded situation).
Any one can pull a gun.
It take a man to stand and shoot back.
It takes a fool or a cop to run towards the shot(sometimes both).
bcarver is offline  
Old September 15, 2008, 06:10 AM   #87
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Bcarver, I agree that most BG's would likely run as soon as shots are fired. What I am trying to prepare for is the BG who doesn't. Clearly there are advantages and disadvantages to both calibers. I'm looking for the one that offers the greatest advantage to dealing with the BG who won't quit in the scenarios I believe I may face.

If they run anything that goes boom will do.
threegun is offline  
Old September 15, 2008, 06:30 AM   #88
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,960
I thought this was the "tactics & training" sub-forum and not the "gadgets & gear" sub-forum...

Have you considered spending the money you were going to blow on a new rifle and the assorted spare mags and ammo (because you were going to buy at least ten mags and a case or two of ammo, right?) and use it for an Urban Rifle course at TRO, instead?
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is online now  
Old September 15, 2008, 10:08 AM   #89
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Tamara,
Quote:
Have you considered spending the money you were going to blow on a new rifle and the assorted spare mags and ammo (because you were going to buy at least ten mags and a case or two of ammo, right?) and use it for an Urban Rifle course at TRO, instead?
Nope not now. I considered it years ago but I couldn't quite afford it. Back then I only had enough money to feed my ammunition habit with very little left over. That little bit went to videos and books. In that time however I have absorbed as much information on the tactical use of a rifle as possible including training with folks who have had the "formal" training. Now I don't think I would benefit enough to justify the costs in lost wages, travel expenses, and fee's. (please guys don't confuse my last statement with me thinking I know it all as has happened in other threads). A class will cost me over 2 grand easy. Based on what I've been told about the itinerary of some of these courses by friends......its mostly stuff I already do.

Quote:
I thought this was the "tactics & training" sub-forum and not the "gadgets & gear" sub-forum...
I apologize if I posted the thread in the wrong place.
threegun is offline  
Old September 15, 2008, 10:10 AM   #90
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,732
Tamara - suggesting training over gear - how dare you?

That violates the secret law of all 'tactics' forums on the Internet!!

__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old September 15, 2008, 11:26 AM   #91
.22lr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2007
Posts: 239
I have to agree with Glenn...

Tamara,

I am but a young novice, and would not normally disagree in public with a moderator, but your recent statement is just ridiculous!

Quote:
Have you considered spending the money you were going to blow on a new rifle and the assorted spare mags and ammo (because you were going to buy at least ten mags and a case or two of ammo, right?) and use it for an Urban Rifle course at TRO, instead?
Training? DUH! that's what different guns and gear are for! who needs to know how to use a tool effectively when you can just own a bunch of them? I own at least 12 hammers, and I believe that makes me a master carpenter!

Now, before I get squished like a bug. I'm obviously being heavily sarcastic. Training by a qualified instructor where class size allows one on one interaction is amazingly effective / beneficial. Cost is a consideration which is why I have only been to one course. It taught basics and that is what I try to practice. BUT If I want to move beyond where I am, it is invaluable for a trained set of eyes (trained not only in the skill I am attempting to get better at, but also trained as a teacher) watch me and identify areas for improvement.

Quote:
Now I don't think I would benefit enough to justify the costs in lost wages, travel expenses, and fee's.
How much does that new rifle cost?
.22lr is offline  
Old September 15, 2008, 11:39 AM   #92
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,732
If we are going to do the great - I'm so special I don't need to train debate - I'm going to eat my lunch now.

Come back after the usual 20 posts arguing against training.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old September 15, 2008, 12:49 PM   #93
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,951
Hmmmmm.

Four pages. Probably should have shoved this over to the rifle forum awhile ago, but everyone was being courteous considering the contentious topic, and I hated to disrupt the conversation.

However, the original conversation appears to be over, for the most part -- and I'm with Glenn. I need to go eat my lunch and get a big bucket o' popcorn going if we're going to do the "do you need training?" discussion again. Which should probably be started in a separate thread, if it needs to be started at all.

Sooooo...

Shutting this one down. Thanks, everyone.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12095 seconds with 7 queries