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Old August 30, 2008, 05:50 PM   #51
Creature
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It's in keeping with the hope for the best prepare for the worst doctrine. Certainly far fetched according to history up to this point at least, but hey, cover them bases too.
That's what my scoped 30-06 bolt gun w/AP is for....
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Old August 30, 2008, 11:03 PM   #52
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I hear ya

...and 2-4 guys on security with .223's
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Old August 31, 2008, 12:21 AM   #53
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basic needs

Atually, everybody is right except for the one that's wrong.... heheheheh...Anyway, the way I see it, in my home , I'll use my .45 ACP ( Gock 30 or Webley mk VI ), then if caught outside my 20 ga. AL 48 Franchi. and finally , if having to exchange fire with someone at over 25 yards and more, my Kel-Tec .223. Note that the shotgun has a 20 " barrel and still will score at 50 yards or more with good slugs. I don't really see the usage a .308 would have unless you're sniping or target shooting , besides who wants to carry that heavy babe in the streets when somebody is after you. As for the .243, that's a hell of a nice cartridge , shoot very flat and about 3 -4 " low at 400 yards , something like that. But find ammo in a running battle. You guys are right in my book about foreseeing heavy troubles and thinking about getting ready , I live in a rural area but figure them freaks from the city raiding a small town or a farm or some ranches just to show off back in their turf....heheheh...I got news for those retard turds , we're waiting for you...heheheh... dan
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Old August 31, 2008, 07:01 AM   #54
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In some ways the 5.56 is more effective than the 7.62x51.
And in some ways the 308 is more effective.......thats the dilemma. I want the most effective for whatever I may face.

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More than likely they will do just that. Historically, mobs don't stick around to areas of aimed live fire.
I think they will also....just want to be ready with the best possible if they don't.

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...and 2-4 guys on security with .223's
My "team" is getting to the right age to be able to help out if something nasty ever happened. My 12 year old has a bushmaster superlite and can run and gun right along with me. Shoots better than most adults already.
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Old September 1, 2008, 04:41 PM   #55
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And in some ways the 308 is more effective.......thats the dilemma. I want the most effective for whatever I may face.
Again, there is no most effective for whatever you may face. There are differences that may or may not be of value in a particular situation. But what is of value in Situation 1 may be disadvantageous is Situation 2.
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Old September 1, 2008, 05:41 PM   #56
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But what is of value in Situation 1 may be disadvantageous is Situation 2.
David, I'm looking for the one that gives the most advantages in most situations. The one with the better average so to speak. For decades I choose the 223 as that caliber. I'm just questioning that decision.
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Old September 1, 2008, 06:34 PM   #57
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I'm just questioning that decision.
Maybe I missed it the first time, but what was it in particular that made you question that decision?
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Old September 2, 2008, 07:52 AM   #58
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Maybe I missed it the first time, but what was it in particular that made you question that decision?
Before talking to you....penetration. I'm thinking that many of the situations I may face will require (at some point) a round that can penetrate vehicles and building material and still remain lethal. Now that I understand what happens after a round is fired (everybody runs for cover or escape) it just seems like it would be advantageous to be able to get behind most cover. To turn cover into concealment as someone posted.

I just cannot imagine the need for stopping a group of charging BG's were the need for fast followups is key.

Anyway thats the confusion for me.
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Old September 2, 2008, 08:31 AM   #59
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50 BMG is the most effective round you can fire from a weapon that one person might actually carry - if they are desperate.
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Old September 2, 2008, 11:41 AM   #60
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My 7 pound AR is getting pretty heavy LOL I can't imagine lugging a 50 around.
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Old September 2, 2008, 11:45 AM   #61
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dangit, threegun...now I want a 6.8 upper.
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Old September 2, 2008, 12:00 PM   #62
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I just had a customer call about the 6.8 DPMS rifle..........I don't want to know anything except the price LOL. I'm thinking 243 also.

You can't change to bigger as you all but talked me out of it LOL.
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Old September 2, 2008, 02:04 PM   #63
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David, I'm looking for the one that gives the most advantages in most situations. The one with the better average so to speak.
Sigh. Time to go back to the ignore list. Bye-bye.
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Old September 2, 2008, 07:20 PM   #64
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Ignore me? You posted in several threads I started. Seems you try very hard not to ignore me. It is for the best though.

Your ignoring me had nothing to do with a moderator warning right LOL? Seems our constant bickering was getting noticed.

You saved me the trouble thanks and good bye.

To the mods..........Thank you. As you know I didn't want to resort to the ignore list but it was for the best. Thanks for the heads up.
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Old September 2, 2008, 07:21 PM   #65
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Creature, What are the ballistics on the 6.8.
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Old September 6, 2008, 06:20 PM   #66
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I never really figured why the military got rid of .308. You can have double the bullet weight of a 223, a 308 caliber hole, and, a bullet going near 3100-3200 fps, or a 110 grain bullet at 3350 fps. I think those old remington Sabot rounds in .223, using a 30-06 sabot went over 4000 fps.

Anyway, finding a small, handy, .308 rifle is the problem I have. I can't find one in Kali, they are all pretty much illegal, so, I use a Mosin Nagant 44, with 7.62 x 54 R, that runs near 30-06 ballistics, but, at lower pressures...Plus, I get a bayonet, and, they are WAY cheaper...
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Old September 8, 2008, 12:02 PM   #67
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I never really figured why the military got rid of .308.
Basically they found, as have most others, that they can get the desired results with a better package. Less expenditure of resources, lower cost, easier to use, etc.
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Old September 8, 2008, 04:43 PM   #68
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my view

223 is fine for an AR and if i need a 308 its a bolt
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Old September 9, 2008, 06:18 AM   #69
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Basically they found, as have most others, that they can get the desired results with a better package. Less expenditure of resources, lower cost, easier to use, etc.
And some in the military will argue that all this was achieved at the cost of GI lives with the less effective caliber. Right or wrong the 5.56mm is less effective than the 7.62x51 at stopping the enemy.
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Old September 9, 2008, 09:49 AM   #70
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Sources? There is a technical literature on the rounds that doesn't support that conclusion.
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Old September 9, 2008, 12:38 PM   #71
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.223 or .308

For quite some time, I had .308 and its equivalent [semi and bolt action], but no .223 rifles. While in the military, I did not care for the M-16, although I qualified expert and was diligent in the cleaning of my weapon. At a gun show in Richmond, I picked up a Bushmaster M17S bullpup at a really good cost (450 dollars - Spring '07). From there I bought a second M17S, an XM15-E2S, a Golani Sporter, a Daewoo AR-100, and a Mini-14 in bullpup configuration. Sprinkle in some other calibre purchases among the above listed. Of late I fire the XM15-E2S more than any other firearm. So much for not caring for the .223 round. If things were to get out of hand (yes, it could happen in America), I would grab my .45 pistol and the Daewoo. I would grab these two because they provide me with the greatest confidence to meet a civil threat. It comes down to your familiarity with the tool (in this case a weapon) and the confidence it gives you to use it (hopefully that day will never come). And be sure to practice [handling, loading, shooting and cleaning] otherwise on that day you will probably shoot a friend or yourself.
Stephen mentioned that we must sound like some really paranoid people to visitors on this forum (especially to the non-gun-wielding set). True, but this is our turf (as they have theirs), and the proper place to discuss such matters in an intelligent manner. I am sure Stephen did not mean any insult, but is concerned with our public image. At times we do needlessly hurt that image.

cheers,
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Old September 9, 2008, 02:33 PM   #72
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The .308 is a great deer gun, and even a good gun for black bear. Humans though are wimpy after being shot. Bears will attack and try to eat you, where humans just fall down. In most cases, .308 is overkill. In a sniper situation where you need to shut down a hostage taker with one shot, the .308 is extremely accurate, bucks the wind and will go where you put it. .308 is an excellent sniper rifle caliber and wins hands down over the .223. For the average shoot 'em up and knock 'em down, the .223 is a great platform with it's fast flying, trauma creating bullet. You can also carry more ammo with the .223 as it's lighter. For those who are recoil sensitive, the .223 wins hands down.
I prefer the lack of recoil of the .223 rifles. No flinch means increased accuracy. I think I've fired 100,000 rounds thru AR-15's and M-16's. The .308 kicked more than I liked and was alot heavier. The .223 also does extreme trauma to an intended target, incapacatating the receiver of the .223 round. I would definitely take the .223.
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Old September 9, 2008, 04:43 PM   #73
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I never really figured why the military got rid of .308.
The US military got rid of 308/7.62 NATO rifles for the same reason the combloc got rid of 7.62x54R, because they wanted an assault rifle. Fullpower rifle rounds don't lend themselves to full/burst fire in anything lighter than a BAR or RPK. 5.56/5.45 rounds were chosen (eventually chosen in the case of the 5.45) for lightweight, low recoil, and flat trajectories.

BTW, shooting through heavy cover isn't the job of a battle rifle whether bolt or semi. It is the job of a light, medium or heavy machine gun. Semi auto rife through a block wall or thick wood is not effective. Think your going to punch through medium cover (actually concealment as someone else said)? Not gonna happen. You probably don't even know what part of the wall or whatever the person is behind.

As for civilians, a 308 makes more sense because you aren't carrying a full battle load and aren't likely to have a full auto weapon. The biggest advantage of a 5.56 (or 5.45) weapon for a civilian is the lightweight of the system. For me, another important consideration is familiarity. I've shot almost everything and carried several different rifles, but an AR just feels right in my hands. Lightweight and accuracy are always an advantage. And I have a supply of 5.56 ammo, so my choice is easy.

I simply don't feel there is any chance I'll ever need a rifle for the long range shots some guys hypothesize needing. If I did somehow think I needed a long range rifle, it wouldn't be a semi. That doesn't mean that I think 308 is a bad choice. It's obviously an excellent round available in some excellent battle proven platforms.
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Old September 9, 2008, 06:09 PM   #74
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It comes down to your familiarity with the tool (in this case a weapon) and the confidence it gives you to use it (hopefully that day will never come).
Exactly. Too many get wrapped up in trying to purchase a haradware solution to what is really a softwareproblem. If people would get proper, effective training (which can't be done by reading a book, watching a video, etc.) they would figure that out. I think it should almost be a mandate that a person can only buy 1 pistol and 1 rifle before getting training. It would cut down a lot on these silly "which is better" kind of threads.
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Old September 9, 2008, 06:58 PM   #75
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223

i have most of the calibers stated so it doesnt matter to me. will pick up which one is handy and go from there
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